I'm struggling! Definition vs. volume

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  • 2 Post By heyho

Hi wavies!

I've been struggling with this pretty much the whole time I've been "intentionally CG" so the last 6 months. I seem to be able to achieve either volume or definition, but not both.

My hair is generally 2b, but like many wavies my hair can accordion a lot depending on humidity, styling, whether I plop or not etc. So on wash day I may be 2b/2c, then sleep, wake up with 2a waves.

If I use certain products like hard hold gel and plop, don't touch while drying etc. I get very well defined 2b/c waves. But then it's FLAT. The wavier I am, the flatter I am. I know diffusing, clipping blah blah. Yes this helps but not as much as I want.

If I don't follow the CG rules, and touch while drying, or blow-dry upside down by moving the hair dryer around I'll get lots of volume BUT lose definition. Then I'm more of a 2a-fluffy.

I think it's because when I'm clumped the hair sticks together more, so it loses volume. When I'm "2a" what is actually happening is that each individual 2b hair is going every which way direction, so it creates that fluffy, undefined appearance.


So I'm just wondering if there are any other wavies out there struggling with this. I'm guessing if I had a tighter curl pattern or some root curl this wouldn't be as much of an issue.

I <3 definition AND volume! Is this impossible? I can't be a "as voluminous as 2a" 2b?
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
I'm super new to this, and myself barely get waves, even with all the techniques and products you've listed, but I was wondering, How do you like pixie diffusing? what about pixie diffusing with your head upside down (I'm imagining it could give more volume and set the gel?) again I don't know anything from experience, but figured it might be worth a try? And i'm sure i can benefit from whatever advice you get here too! Thanks for posting about this!
This is very much me! My hair is very fine and on the thinner side of normal density. My wave pattern is 2a air dried with no product, but is probably closer to 2b-2c with some. I really think my hair just can't achieve the type of volume I desire. It's just the hair I have. I can get a tad more volume when I use mousse only, but then my hair looks frizzy and I'm not happy with it that way either. Lol! Diffusing makes the biggest difference as to how much volume I can achieve. And protein, my hair loves protein.

My hair stylist basically told me that I wouldn't be able to get big hair like women with thicker and coarser hair. : ( Wahhh! Got to work with what I have I guess!
2a-2bFii NP?

Low poo: Deva Low-Poo, Jessicurl GLS, Moroccanoil Volumizing Shampoo, Aveda Be Curly
Condish: Cure Care, Redken Body Full, Deva One C, and Jessicurl Aloeba
LI: Aveda Be Curly Style Prep <3
Products: Deva FFVF & Jessicurl Spiralicious (LOVE), TRESemme Curl Boosting Mousse
Hairspray: Aussie Sprunch, TRESemme Curl
locking Spray
Experimenting with lots of products in my cabinet...


My hair loves protein, plopping, and diffusing! Trying to find a way to style and air dry.
I'm super new to this, and myself barely get waves, even with all the techniques and products you've listed, but I was wondering, How do you like pixie diffusing? what about pixie diffusing with your head upside down (I'm imagining it could give more volume and set the gel?) again I don't know anything from experience, but figured it might be worth a try? And i'm sure i can benefit from whatever advice you get here too! Thanks for posting about this!
Originally Posted by nicki.hallen
Pixie diffusing is okay... I'm not sure I've ever tried it fully upside down. I'm still growing out The Great Thinning Shear Disaster of 2012 so unfortunately pixie d. is making my thinned out hairs get unclumped and dance on top of my other hairs. I think this may work better once all my hairs are finally the same length, that'll take another 9 months. :/
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
This is very much me! My hair is very fine and on the thinner side of normal density. My wave pattern is 2a air dried with no product, but is probably closer to 2b-2c with some. I really think my hair just can't achieve the type of volume I desire. It's just the hair I have. I can get a tad more volume when I use mousse only, but then my hair looks frizzy and I'm not happy with it that way either. Lol! Diffusing makes the biggest difference as to how much volume I can achieve. And protein, my hair loves protein.

My hair stylist basically told me that I wouldn't be able to get big hair like women with thicker and coarser hair. : ( Wahhh! Got to work with what I have I guess!
Originally Posted by AKgirl
I was actually going to add that the best volume & definition that I've gotten was from DermOrganic mousse. I used 4 pumps and it looked pretty good, except I had frizz as well. I hadn't tried any other mousse so I wasn't sure if it was what all mousses were like or just the DO one. It's not a bad product at all, but I'm not sure it's HG.

Protein helps me too. Being OCed does no good for volume!
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
I can only get volume with a hard hold gel on top like brhg and a diffuser. No diffuser, no volume. I'll still de-puff some.
2a medium porous, You can see my wavy tutorials here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZNxhBHSXAW40OQ and my wavy blog is The Wavy Nation http://wavynation.wordpress.com
If you can't have what you want, want what you have
curlytwirlykate and wavydaze like this.
Unless you have really thick hair there is a trade off between clumping/ frizz control and volume. Curl and volume closer to the root is often easier if you wash, apply products and style all upside down. I literally walk from bathroom to bedroom bent forward! If you think about it, any part of the hair that is pressed flat against the head during washing or styling is being encouraged to be straighter. You can see this in the back of the head on the Jessicurl and Devachan videos on YouTube.

Personally I need more product especially leave in conditioner when I am diffusing compared with air drying. Plopping gives flatter roots than scrunching out the water (upside down again). Tend to diffuse the areas with weakest curl or flatter roots first which has helped. Getting decent volume and definition with a protein rich conditioner at present, but it does not play nicely with all my styling products.

I also find different combinations of products, techniques and types of clipping give different levels of volume that endure or collapse quickly. Sometimes I do really well with Sibel roller jaw clamps (= Curly Hair Solutions), sometimes bobby pins work better, never mastered the Deva/ Ouidad clipping methods. Sure I have seen somewhere a Curly Girl that 'pineapples' longer hair for volume instead of root clipping, Veronica Meza parts one side then flips to the other.
Root Volume for Curly Girls - YouTube
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
Firefox, which conditioner are you using, the Komaza Care Matani?

I've been wanting to give the CHS roller clamps a try, as well as the flippy V Meza technique!
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
I literally walk from bathroom to bedroom bent forward!
Originally Posted by Firefox7275
Lol!

Yes same, plopping gives me great curl but more flat-top as well. Ehhhhh... always an exchange!
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
Firefox, which conditioner are you using, the Komaza Care Matani?

I've been wanting to give the CHS roller clamps a try, as well as the flippy V Meza technique!
Originally Posted by wavydaze
I'm using the Komaza Care Matani repair treatment spray followed by either
- Schwarzkopf Gliss (Kur) Ultimate Volume
"water, cetearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed collagen, panthenol, cocodimonium hydroxypropyl hydrolyzed keratin, hydrolyzed keratin, isopropyl myristate, behonoyl PG-trimonium chloride, citric acid, VP/VA copolymer, phenoxyethanol, behentrimonium chloride, sodium methylparaben, hexylene glycol, fragrance, polyquaternium-37, dicaprylyl carbonate, hexyl cinnamal, amyl cinnamal, limonene, linalool, benzyl salicylate." OR

- Garnier Fructis Sleek & Shine (old formula)
"Water, cetearyl alcohol, palm oil, behentrimonium chloride, niacinamide, sugar cane extract, hydrolysed corn protein, hydrolysed soy protein, hydrolysed wheat protein, stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, chlorhexidine dihydrochloride, xylose, limonene, camellia sinesis leaf extract, linalool, benzyl salicylate, benzyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, apple fruit extract, pyridoxine HCl, citric acid, butylphenyl methylpropional, lemon peel extract, hexylcinnamal, glycerin, fragrance FIL C35637/1."

Not clear if you can get the Gliss Kur line in the US, it's easy to find and cheap in Europe. I like the Matani spray but it's not an instant thing, the creamy type conditioner is. The Matani is also ceramides and panthenol so particularly good for damaged hair, might be a waste of money if you have virgin hair.

You could possibly make your own version by adding protein filler to a basic conditioner or spray bottle, maybe ION Effective Care or Mill Creek biotin would work. Obviously depends how much protein your hair will take, I'm shocked by how well my hair is tolerating protein right now.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
Hi wavydaze, I am in the same boat. I want BOTH volume and definition but I can usually only have one or the other. I have settled on using a hard hold gel, which locks the curl in for me once my hair finally dries. If I can suffer through flat hair on day one, the next two or even three days are pretty good. Pineappling puts volume back in overnight and the curl holds up pretty well. I have had a couple of really good days using a softer hold jelly or gel. I tried Miss Jessies' Jelly Soft Curl and had volume AND definition, but only on the first day. However, it did look really good for the first day, I have to say. I have also had really good first day hair using Deva B-leave in topped with Moroccan oil mousse. Again, the definition didn't hold more than a day for me. So there's my two cents. I have yet to venture into the glamorous world of okra gel, etc. but I will. Lord help me, I will.......
2b/2c ( weather permitting - 3a), fine texture but lots of it, colored and highlights, BSL.
Experimenting w CG since Oct 2012

Current rotation:
cowash= TN
AG Gel Mousse, LA Gel,
DT = Coconut oil (love)

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