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-   -   I Can't Escape My Frizz! (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/2/161203-i-cant-escape-my-frizz.html)

dinoRAWRSyou 08-02-2013 04:30 PM

I Can't Escape My Frizz!
 
So I think I'm figuring out this whole CG thing and I've gotten past wanting to give up on my hair because, yes, it actually *is* wavy (yay!). Prepare in advance for a slight diatribe but I promise, I really am looking for answers and not just venting ;)

Here's my issue: frizz.

My hair likes protein. It makes it shiny, it helps it hold a curl, but... it gives me little crispy frizzies. So then I started adding moisture. It helped take away the slight "crispness" of my hair, but I think I may have overdone it on moisture because my hair got dull and almost mushy and all my waves just pulled themselves loooong and then fell out. The worst part? I still have frizz. I thought it may have been glycerin (plus humidity) causing some of the issues so I weeded it out of my products. I still have a ton of frizz.

I recently started pixie diffusing and it seemed to help, until my hair dried all the way. More frizz. Normally I co-wash, so I tried low-poo'ing and it didn't help. I tried a sulfate wash for oil/polyquat buildup. Still frizz. My hair has frizz when it's wet, when it's damp, and when it's dry. I do my best to not touch it or play with it too much. I've tried mixing up what products I use and how I apply them (next on the playbook is gel applied rake & shake, topped with mousse, followed by pixie diffuse). I tried more product, less product, no product. I applied it on soaking wet hair, damp hair, and dry hair. All I got was more frizz for my trouble. I am at the end of my rope with this stupid frizz! :(

It seems like anything that's heavy enough to completely tame my frizz makes my hair greasy and is so heavy it pulls out my curl pattern almost completely. Does anyone have suggestions for dealing with this? Help? Please?

Firefox7275 08-02-2013 05:38 PM

Frizz when soaking wet? Could be protein overload, more conditioning or oiling may help but you sometimes need to wait for the excess protein to 'wear off' too. You won't necessarily get the excess off in one low-poo, some proteins can be highly substantive (sticks well to hair).

What are all your products?

JessMess 08-02-2013 05:50 PM

I have pervasive surface frizz problems too. I can get rid of the pouf but the surface frizz is really stubborn (though I have had a few good days). I do believe my canopy has some damage from years of heat-styling, so I'm hoping that this improves the longer that I'm CG.

For now, sometimes I wonder if it doesn't just demand a gentle mechanical solution--some kind of "set" like twists or a French braid or something. Today was third-day hair, and I had my canopy twisted and in a jaw clip most of the day; looks not so bad now. Though I also have some of those coarse wiry hairs that will probably always poke out no matter what I do; I probably just have to accept some level of frizz.

dinoRAWRSyou 08-02-2013 06:55 PM

@Firefox; So, you're saying it's most likely the protein that's causing the frizz? Could doing a coconut oil treatment possibly help with some of the frizz? And if protein is the culprit, should I cut back on it or cut it out completely?

For my low-poo, I used the Organix Coconut Milk shampoo, which I think has a 'cone... uh oh. My sulfate shampoo was was YTC Nourishing, which I used after the Organix. I applied KCKT, followed by SheaM C&S milk, followed with Pantene Curls mousse. I'm thinking that this time it may have been product overload because I used a detangler and a L/I, plus a ton of mousse, but this is a consistent problem. Everything that I'm cycling through product-wise is:

Cowash: SN Coco, V05 MM
Low-poo: Organix Coconut Milk or SheaM C&S shampoo
Sulfate wash: YTC Nourishing
R/O: GVPCB, Ion Effective Care
PT: GVP K-Pac, Colorful NPF
L/I: KCKT, SheaM C&S milk (still not sure I actually need a leave-in)
Stylers: LA Sport gel (yellow), Pantene Curls mousse

wavydaze 08-02-2013 07:46 PM

I highly doubt the protein is giving you frizz. The only thing is I'd add enough moisture to take the "crispness" out of your hair, sounds like you've already been doing that. Your hair can get a little more frizzy if it's also crispy, but if it's not crispy it's not the protein that's giving you frizz. Be careful in how much moisture you add back though. Fine hair can get very easily over-condition, so you'll want to add moisture back after a PT but not so much that it undoes what the PT did in terms of protein-moisture balance. I have this issue frequently. My hair is never dry nor crispy, and all my products have protein (plus I add CNPF to my protein ROs) and I do PTs weekly! I just use non-stripping low-poos and good leave-in conditioners. I haven't DTed in months and I haven't needed it.

Honestly it sounds like a buildup issue to me. Is Joico KPak the only PT you've been doing? I'd recommend not doing this one, and doing a "cleaner" PT like the gelatin PT. KPak has mineral oil which could be building up. If you want purchasable PTs I'd recommend the Spiral Solutions one.

Check the Pantene product and any other product for polyquats. Many curlies have severe buildup issues with these and need sulfates to remove them (with 4, 7 and 10 being the biggest offenders).

wavydaze 08-02-2013 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196490)
@Firefox; So, you're saying it's most likely the protein that's causing the frizz? Could doing a coconut oil treatment possibly help with some of the frizz? And if protein is the culprit, should I cut back on it or cut it out completely?

For my low-poo, I used the Organix Coconut Milk shampoo, which I think has a 'cone... uh oh. My sulfate shampoo was was YTC Nourishing, which I used after the Organix. I applied KCKT, followed by SheaM C&S milk, followed with Pantene Curls mousse. I'm thinking that this time it may have been product overload because I used a detangler and a L/I, plus a ton of mousse, but this is a consistent problem. Everything that I'm cycling through product-wise is:

Cowash: SN Coco, V05 MM
Low-poo: Organix Coconut Milk or SheaM C&S shampoo
Sulfate wash: YTC Nourishing
R/O: GVPCB, Ion Effective Care
PT: GVP K-Pac, Colorful NPF
L/I: KCKT, SheaM C&S milk (still not sure I actually need a leave-in)
Stylers: LA Sport gel (yellow), Pantene Curls mousse

It sounds like product overload or buildup. The dimethicone copolyol in the organix low-poo is water soluble, unless your bottle has a different cone. Live Curly, Live Free: Silicones Not All Created Equal It shouldn't really cause problems if water-soluble AFAIK.

The Pantene mousse has polyquat 4 high on the list... this could be causing problems.

Shea butter can build up as well on its own, if you're using shea and polyquats and water soluble silicones and mineral oil, hmmm these could be all holding hands together on your hair and not in a good way.

Regarding your routine, it is very very heavy on moisture and not balanced enough on protein. I would never be able to use GVP CB regularly as my hair would quickly overcondition. Cure Care may not have enough protein either. Just noticed you're using sally's kpak and not joico kpak... are the ingredients similar? I would still suggest you go for another cleaner protein treatment. If you get overconditioned easily, I'd skip the leave-in.

wavydaze 08-02-2013 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196469)
It seems like anything that's heavy enough to completely tame my frizz makes my hair greasy and is so heavy it pulls out my curl pattern almost completely. Does anyone have suggestions for dealing with this? Help? Please?

Yes, sometimes I get this issue, it doesn't pull out my curl but I can easily over-grease or rather things that really help against frizz take a full 24 hours to absorb! Low-porosity and calming frizzies can be tricky.

Just try skipping the leave-in and go for gel directly or better yet a gelée like FSG. Or if you're going to use something like the SM C&Style Milk... use literally only a pea sized to smooth on, no more! But you may not need it at all! Also I'd suggest skipping the KCKT.

dinoRAWRSyou 08-02-2013 08:29 PM

I was kind of wondering if overconditioning was the culprit... I've noticed that when I tend to use richer conditioners/styling products, my hair and my curl pattern seem to suffer a bit.

I have done the gelatin PT before and I liked the results a lot. My main issue with that was actually just finding a schedule to do PT's; unfortunately I'm not very consistent with them and I can kind of tell. I blame school.

The GVP K-Pac has an identical ingredients list to the Joico as it's a dupe for it. The thing with the Organix shampoo and w/s 'cone buildup is I just used that shampoo for the first time in months the other day, so the w/s 'cones have not been a staple in my hair routine.

So, do you think I should do another sulfate wash before trying to clear out polyquats & mineral oil from my products? I'm loathe to do it because I just did it... last week I think? And also, do you think that strictly cowashing could be causing over-moisturizing issues?

Edit; I'm thinking it definitely is a buildup issue. My previous stylers (KCCC and Garnier Pure Clean Gel) were both polyquat free and I had far less issues with frizz. Any other recs for polyquat-free stylers?

chupie 08-02-2013 08:43 PM

A lot
Of people (wavies) are liking the Blueberry YTC.

dinoRAWRSyou 08-02-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chupie (Post 2196513)
A lot
Of people (wavies) are liking the Blueberry YTC.

Which one are you talking about? Most of the YTB things I've seen are skin care :/

wavydaze 08-02-2013 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196510)
I was kind of wondering if overconditioning was the culprit... I've noticed that when I tend to use richer conditioners/styling products, my hair and my curl pattern seem to suffer a bit.

I have done the gelatin PT before and I liked the results a lot. My main issue with that was actually just finding a schedule to do PT's; unfortunately I'm not very consistent with them and I can kind of tell. I blame school.

I hear you on not having time for PTs. Something that will help would be getting protein-rich conditioners as an RO and even leave-in. If you check the "protein-craving" section, there's a good thread on protein-rich conditioners. Try NG Biotin, Millcreek Keratin (strong) or Biotin, EO Keratin, Giovanni SaS, none of these have polyquats. People really like CJ Repair Me, I think I could use it as an RO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196510)
The GVP K-Pac has an identical ingredients list to the Joico as it's a dupe for it. The thing with the Organix shampoo and w/s 'cone buildup is I just used that shampoo for the first time in months the other day, so the w/s 'cones have not been a staple in my hair routine.

So, do you think I should do another sulfate wash before trying to clear out polyquats & mineral oil from my products? I'm loathe to do it because I just did it... last week I think? And also, do you think that strictly cowashing could be causing over-moisturizing issues?

Yes I think you should sulfate wash to reset everything while moving forward. You can use the GVP CB + coconut oil + honey to DT afterward to put back moisture... or just leave the GVP CB longer in your hair in the shower.

Yes I think cowashing could be contributing to overmoisturizing issues... you can either cowash but cut back on the moisturizing RO and/or leave-in, or switch to regular low-pooing and keep the moisturizing (and protein-ing) RO and leave-in. The thing is if you cut back on RO and LI, but keep cowashing, you won't really be getting your regular protein fix, so yeah I guess I'd recommend low-pooing more regularly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196510)
Edit; I'm thinking it definitely is a buildup issue. My previous stylers (KCCC and Garnier Pure Clean Gel) were both polyquat free and I had far less issues with frizz. Any other recs for polyquat-free stylers?

Everything in my siggy is polyquat-free. Look at kathymack's siggy and ask her for recs too! She has your properties. I'd highly recommend you try homemade flaxseed gel if you haven't already. :)

wavydaze 08-02-2013 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196514)
Quote:

Originally Posted by chupie (Post 2196513)
A lot
Of people (wavies) are liking the Blueberry YTC.

Which one are you talking about? Most of the YTB things I've seen are skin care :/

the YesTo line has haircare, in Target it's found by the makeup aisle. YesToCucumbers is a well-liked low-poo. (YesTo Blueberries & Carrots poos have sulfates.)

chupie 08-03-2013 12:17 AM

I was talking about Yes to Blueberries conditioner.

kathymack 08-03-2013 05:37 AM

I totally agree with wavydaze on the buildup issue. My properties are close and I started out as a winter wavy/summer 3a. My hair never met a protein it didn't like and I have yet to use too much protein.

I would do a sulfate wash to start over. It sometimes takes a few washes for me to remove the polyquats. My hair also hates mineral oil. For me, the SM Coconut & Hibiscus line was just too heavy (and I use really rich products, if you understand the difference.) They just sat on my hair. I had to wash them out. I use natural soap bars. They were really popular about 5 years ago, but are frowned upon now because of high pH. I haven't been impressed with any of the products I've used from the other lines, either.

I'm guessing that I had problems with the gelatin PT. I've been putting gelatin in my okra gel, so it's not the gelatin in, and of, itself. I think it's the concentration. The PT is an envelope to 1/4-1/3 c of water. When I put it in okra gel it's an envelope to 4 c of water.

dinoRAWRSyou 08-03-2013 09:30 AM

@wavydaze; Thank you so much! I think then I'll probably do a sulfate wash today, then switch to my SheaM low-poo instead of cowashing. I'm thinking for a protein-rich RO I might try the AO GPB condish... I've heard nothing but good things.

I'd love to try FSG but I don't know if I've got the time to make it. I just got a new gel from Sally's but since I've never tried it before, I think that I will return it and go back to my GFPCG and KCCC to see if it really is a buildup issue.

So my plan of attack is: Sulfate cleanse, DT with GVPCB, possibly try my SN Coco as a L/I (if I need it). Switch my RO to Aubrey GPB and ditch the prepacked PT for gelatin once a week plus go back to polyquat-free stylers. If my hair is still frizzy while wet I'll try a couple more sulfate washes.

I have a RO from Sally's (Salon Care Honey & Almond), but I don't know if it could be cause issues so I don't know if I want to use it. It has:
Water, cetyl alcohol, stearalkonium chloride, honey, sweet almond oil, hydrolyzed keratin, propylene glycol, dicetyldimonium chloride, fragrance, citric acid, DMDM hydantoin, yellow 5, blue 1, red 4, and red 33. Safe to use? I liked that it had protein and I didn't know if I could use it as a L/I.

Only other question I think I have is, could parabens possibly be causing an issue? I had a gel that I used and it gave me frizz, but I'm not sure if it was the w/s 'cones or the parabens that gave me an issue.

kathymack 08-03-2013 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinoRAWRSyou (Post 2196623)

Only other question I think I have is, could parabens possibly be causing an issue? I had a gel that I used and it gave me frizz, but I'm not sure if it was the w/s 'cones or the parabens that gave me an issue.

Parabens are more of a health issue than a hair issue.

dinoRAWRSyou 08-03-2013 02:19 PM

Okay, post-shower update. I did a sulfate wash with YTC and followed up with GVPCB. Went back to KCCC topped with the Garnier gel and pixie diffused. Waves seemed happier and the frizz looks a bit more like what I'm used to seeing when I over-condition (more "fluffy" than anything else).

wavydaze 08-03-2013 11:59 PM

I don't think YTCuckes has sulfates....

kathymack 08-04-2013 05:08 AM

Yes to Cucumbers:

Water (Aqua), Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Fruit Extract*, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Rosa Canina Fruit Extract, Salix Alba (Willow) Bark Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil, Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil,Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Sea Water, Chlorella Vulgaris Extract, Spirulina Maxima Extract, Hydrolyzed Algin, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Xanthan Gum, Glycerin, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Phenoxyethanol

Yes to Carrots:

Water (Aqua), Lauryl Glucoside, Decyl Glucoside, Sodium Coco-Sulfate, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Juice*, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil*, Maris Aqua, Maris Limus Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Oil*, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Seed Oil, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin) Fruit Extract, Ipomoea Batatas Root Lees Extract, Cucumis Melo (Melon) Fruit Extract, Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract, Honey Extract, Punica Granatum Extract, Xanthan Gum, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate

Depends on which YT"C" product you use. Looked up Sodium Coco-Sulfate and found (aka Sodium lauryl sulfate.)

dinoRAWRSyou 08-06-2013 07:26 AM

The one I used was Yes To Carrots. also, I started using my Salon Care as a RO rather than GVPCB; it has protein and is lighter, plus I added a little NPF. I also low-pooed with SM rather than cowashed and my hair looked sooooo much better! Shiny, softer, more defined waves. Thank you ladies for pointing out my build-up & over conditioning issues... hair is much happier now :)


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