Nappturality... How could it be bad?

I belong to both sites and I never really sense any negativity on NP. The vibe is different, but not negative. I have a mix of curly, coily, nappy hair and the members of both sites have been helpful in my journey. Where I end up lurking is usually just a matter of my mood.
BC'd 10/16/05 3" Curly mix. Routine: No Poo daily w/Suave Humectant Cond. style with flax seed gel and Rosewater and Glycerin. album: http://public.fotki.com/nappstar password: nappy
Personally, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Nappturality because I am 100% positive that if that site did not exist, my hair would not be natural today. Nappturality is the first place I went that advocated total acceptance of your natural self AND your hair and really challenged some previously held notions I had about black hair.

However, I do co-sign with other members here so said they've noticed complete indifference, if not downright hostility, towards members who have curly hair. Someone made a topic about that Garnier Fructis Soft Curl Creme, which a lot of black curlies there ended up loving. Come to find out that there were people who took issue with the fact that someone made a thread for curly haired women.

Granted, there are those who feel the need to announce to the world that they have a head full of curly hair and logically, I can see why it would be sensitive to a women with "nappy" hair. However, my hair is what it is and I'm not apologizing for it because some chick has issues. My curly hair is not the same as a white girl's curly hair; I have BLACK curly hair so my hair needs more closely align with the hair types of women at nappturality. I just wonder if black curlies are in some weird inbetween place. I seek products that are for thick, African American type curly hair, but I'm also against texturizers and forcing your hair to do something that it just doesn't do.
Fotki PW: PM me for it!
Big Chopped: April 1, 2005
My Hair: Tight, thick springy curls with up to 90% shrinkage.
Personally, I will always have a soft spot in my heart for Nappturality because I am 100% positive that if that site did not exist, my hair would not be natural today. Nappturality is the first place I went that advocated total acceptance of your natural self AND your hair and really challenged some previously held notions I had about black hair.

However, I do co-sign with other members here so said they've noticed complete indifference, if not downright hostility, towards members who have curly hair. Someone made a topic about that Garnier Fructis Soft Curl Creme, which a lot of black curlies there ended up loving. Come to find out that there were people who took issue with the fact that someone made a thread for curly haired women.

Granted, there are those who feel the need to announce to the world that they have a head full of curly hair and logically, I can see why it would be sensitive to a women with "nappy" hair. However, my hair is what it is and I'm not apologizing for it because some chick has issues. My curly hair is not the same as a white girl's curly hair; I have BLACK curly hair so my hair needs more closely align with the hair types of women at nappturality. I just wonder if black curlies are in some weird inbetween place. I seek products that are for thick, African American type curly hair, but I'm also against texturizers and forcing your hair to do something that it just doesn't do.
Originally Posted by AfroCurls
Ive never understood the distinction between curly hair and supposedly "nappy" hair.

Isnt type 4a/4b hair simply the curliest of the curly hair type?

The term "nappy" has always been a derogatory one and I dont really understand why we embrace it instead of accurately describing our hair like what it actually is....surprise...surprise...very very curly!!!

And yes, I think there are 2 sides to the coin. There are those people who seek to separate themselves from other black people by pointing out how they are not really black at every opportunity...and then are seemingly oblivious and confused when black people become offended and defensive about these attitudes.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.



Ive never understood the distinction between curly hair and supposedly "nappy" hair.

Isnt type 4a/4b hair simply the curliest of the curly hair type?

The term "nappy" has always been a derogatory one and I dont really understand why we embrace it instead of accurately describing our hair like what it actually is....surprise...surprise...very very curly!!!

And yes, I think there are 2 sides to the coin. There are those people who seek to separate themselves from other black people by pointing out how they are not really black at every opportunity...and then are seemingly oblivious and confused when black people become offended and defensive about these attitudes.
Originally Posted by AnikaNA
From what I've read on Nappturality (and seen with my own eyes), all 4A/4B hair isn't curly. Some of the members who say they have that hair type say that their hair doesn't curl at all, but is in fact a "zig zag" pattern. So while there are women who's 4A/B hair has a curl pattern, there are MANY who don't have a curl pattern at all and should accept that. That's part of the mindset they are trying to combat: even if you don't have a curl pattern, your natural hair is fine the way it is.

As far as them using the term nappy, I just see them using the same word that everybody else would use to describe our hair type. The vast majority of black people still associate it with negativity so it's not something I'd say in casual conversation, but I'd damn sure wear it on a t-shirt or something to that effect.
Fotki PW: PM me for it!
Big Chopped: April 1, 2005
My Hair: Tight, thick springy curls with up to 90% shrinkage.



Ive never understood the distinction between curly hair and supposedly "nappy" hair.

Isnt type 4a/4b hair simply the curliest of the curly hair type?

The term "nappy" has always been a derogatory one and I dont really understand why we embrace it instead of accurately describing our hair like what it actually is....surprise...surprise...very very curly!!!

And yes, I think there are 2 sides to the coin. There are those people who seek to separate themselves from other black people by pointing out how they are not really black at every opportunity...and then are seemingly oblivious and confused when black people become offended and defensive about these attitudes.
Originally Posted by AnikaNA
From what I've read on Nappturality (and seen with my own eyes), all 4A/4B hair isn't curly. Some of the members who say they have that hair type say that their hair doesn't curl at all, but is in fact a "zig zag" pattern. So while there are women who's 4A/B hair has a curl pattern, there are MANY who don't have a curl pattern at all and should accept that. That's part of the mindset they are trying to combat: even if you don't have a curl pattern, your natural hair is fine the way it is.

As far as them using the term nappy, I just see them using the same word that everybody else would use to describe our hair type. The vast majority of black people still associate it with negativity so it's not something I'd say in casual conversation, but I'd damn sure wear it on a t-shirt or something to that effect.
Originally Posted by AfroCurls
Ive read about that Z-pattern thing in that Andre book...but I wont believe it until I see it.

I believe 4b hair is a form of super curly hair. Ive seen many heads of hair on black women in my family and friends and Ive yet to see any that didnt have some form of curl pattern in it, in it's natural state.

As for the term, its like us black folks feel we should embrace all manner of negative terms (initially used by others to demean us) to describe ourselves.

You dont see white people embracing the notion of having "stringy" or horse-like hair when the terms "straight" or "fine" or even "Thin" are just as useful description without the derogatory connotations.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
I enjoy visiting Nappturality and I complete accept and understand their approach and the purpose of the board. I don't feel like the majority of the membership is against curly ladies, its just that that board is the only one for "nappy" natural hair and they want to keep that the focus.

I don't see the term nappy as derogatory, to me its simply a description. But I know not to use that term around most people. I think some 4s use nappy or coily instead of curly because their hair doesn't have (and won't ever have) curl definition, the individual hairs don't spiral or the hairs don't clump.

And some people use it to embrace the uniqueness of their hair.

The term naps or nappy weren't originally negative. And when they were used to describe Africans and people of African descent they were just descriptive, the derogatory part was incorporated later. They were initially terms to describe fabric and carpet ("dense, soft or fuzzy surface"), and were synonymous with wooly or cottony.
I personally see nothing bad about that, my hair is wooly and fuzzy. So to me nappy is just a word.
Last relaxer 5/04
nappy, fuzzy, kinky, coily
transitioning until...
nappy is a prejorative term.

Black people with 4 type hair have the curliest type of hair. It is absurd to make a distinction between nappy hair and curly hair.

I have yet to see a black person with type 4 hair without "curl definition" or a curl "pattern."

Im sorry, describing someone's hair as nappy as opposed to what it really is "very curly" is nonsensical and offensive.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
I'm a member of Nappturality, too, and was amazed at the info that surfaces there. Of course, it tends to be quite specific, so if you're looking for curl definition products, forget it.

I've always lurked, never posted...since I'm transitioning with straight (pressed) hair, there really isn't a need for me to. Later, when my natural hair is more present, I'll be able to offer a bit more info, I think-- and be a bit more credible.

I HAVE seen some of the negativity, and I'll admit-- it threw me off a bit. On the one hand, I can see why it's important to stick to the mission statement. On the other hand, I've seen a few curious (innocent) questions be shredded like there's no tomorrow!

But it's a great site, and I've learned a hell of a lot about hair care, embracing my hair, and patience!

Oh, and about the term 'nappy'-- I'm on the fence about it. I like it, but as someone said, I wouldn't use that word in formal conversation...
FYI
Type 4a has a definite curl pattern.
Type 4b has the z pattern, that does not coil. I've never seen this type, or been able to recognize it if I have!
O, S, with fine strands
Cottony
nappy is a prejorative term.
To you. Obviously the women at Nappturality use it to embrace the uniqeness of their hairtype. The term was not originally negative. It became negative because having wooly, cottony hair was seen as negative, as being the very opposite of "good hair". If one doesn't see that type of natural hair as bad then the term is no longer hurtful. When I was growing up people insulted girls with the term dark (or black), because as a girl it was better to be brown or light. But that doesn't mean that dark in and of itself is an offensive term. If one doesn't see dark skin as a negative and lighter skin as better then the word becomes simply another adjective.

Black people with 4 type hair have the curliest type of hair. It is absurd to make a distinction between nappy hair and curly hair.
To you. Many women see a difference between coily, kinky, nappy and curly. For a lot of people type 4 hair was "bad hair" growing up and type 3 was closer to "good"; it was seen as prettier and more manageable. So for some there's a significant difference.


I have yet to see a black person with type 4 hair without "curl definition" or a curl "pattern."
I have family members with hair that has zero curl definition. Each hair is kinda doing its own thing without forming a pattern. Take a look at the albums over at Nappturality, there is a difference in hair described as 4 a, b, c and that described as 3c. You may still define it as curly, but some people like to use words such as nappy.


Im sorry, describing someone's hair as nappy as opposed to what it really is "very curly" is nonsensical and offensive.
To you it may be simply "very curly" but you can't tell other women how to define their hair. If some of us see type 4 as kinky and nappy then so be it. Its offensive to you but obviously to others its just a word that when stripped of the whole good/bad hair connotations simply describes the texture of their hair.
Originally Posted by AnikaNA
Last relaxer 5/04
nappy, fuzzy, kinky, coily
transitioning until...
hey guys, to me the word nappy has always put a lil heat in my heart because where i'm from and from my family, it's always been used as a negative connotation. to me nappy is in a sense defined as "horrible coarse hair." and NO ONE's hair is horrible regardless of what texture it is and coarseness is defined as the width of the strand, not the way it feels. i do agree that not everyone's hair is curly. i have in fact seen zigzag cuz of one of my best friends has it and it's awesome! she rocks the wildest styles that i could never do cuz my hair wouldn't hold it nor go with it. but anyway, if ever came down to me havin to accept the word nappy or get a relaxer, umm hell yea i would rock a nappy tshirt like afrocurls in a hot minute because i refuse to go back to the evil white cream lol

As this term becomes more accepted, i may change my views on it because i'm always up for change and acceptance. it's hard when you have people who grind negativity constantly about natural hair. so i can see how words like nappy, brillo, kente naps and etc would piss some people off and not want to say it. i've heard it all and it's disturbing. it's so sad seeing lil kids talk down to other kids who have natural hair cuz you can tell that mess about "good/bad hair" has been put in them from the start. so it's best that we try to understand both sides of this term.
Truly Aesthetic...mind, body and spirit
Type 4b has the z pattern, that does not coil. I've never seen this type, or been able to recognize it if I have!
Originally Posted by thirteenlbs
I dont think it exists.

It was an invention of Andre and his heirarchy of hair.

Unfortunately, it was pretty clear that black hair was the low man on his totem pole.

................
[To you. Many women see a difference between coily, kinky, nappy and curly. For a lot of people type 4 hair was "bad hair" growing up and type 3 was closer to "good"; it was seen as prettier and more manageable. So for some there's a significant difference.
Isnt it about time we stop defining our natural selves negatively?

The bottom line is so-called type 4 hair is the curliest hair going. To juxtapose curly hair and so-called nappy hair is absurd and meaningless.

Just as if I said Liquids versus water. You see water is a type of liquid. So-called nappy hair is a type of curly hair.

We dont grow as a people by embracing perjorative terms about ourselves.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
As this term becomes more accepted, i may change my views on it because i'm always up for change and acceptance. it's hard when you have people who grind negativity constantly about natural hair. so i can see how words like nappy, brillo, kente naps and etc would piss some people off and not want to say it. i've heard it all and it's disturbing. it's so sad seeing lil kids talk down to other kids who have natural hair cuz you can tell that mess about "good/bad hair" has been put in them from the start. so it's best that we try to understand both sides of this term.
Originally Posted by amarilla505
Exactly, and using our recent ancestors as an example, the way we grow as a people is to stop embracing negative language about ourselves.

ie....not too many of us call ourselves negroes or coloreds anymore now do we?
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
i started the garnier soft curl creme thread on nappturality b/c i was happy to find a product that works for my hair and wanted to share the news. alot of women went out and bought it and its been working for them too. there is alof of nonsense in regards to curly/nappy hair over there, but at the end of the day, its the best informational source for natural african american hair period, and without them, i wouldnt be natural today!
loose 4a, silky meets cottony
routine: co-wash, add leave in or plain water, shake & go
staples: elucence poo & conditioners, V05 & suave naturals, jessicurl too shea, AO.
Amarilla,

I'm from Tennessee, and boy, do we have some crazy views down south, right? I think I was trying to say that "nappy" is not a word I'd be ashamed to use to decribe my hair, though I'd certainly prefer another! I'm not sure why, except that it calls to mind all of those lovely childhood hang ups passed down to us from those who didn't know any better.

Kinky is a better word, in my opinion-- but I have absolutely no justification whatsoever for that-- except that it feels more positive.

Though I did buy bell hooks' book, Happy to be Nappy, for a daughter that doesn't exist yet...!

13
O, S, with fine strands
Cottony
[quote="AnikaNA"]
I dont think it exists.

It was an invention of Andre and his heirarchy of hair.

Unfortunately, it was pretty clear that black hair was the low man on his totem pole.
Some people do have hair that they would describe as not having any curl or coil pattern. You may disagree but a person can describe their own hair they way they like. I dont particularly like his system of classification, but Andre did not invent the idea of nappy differing from curly.
................

Isnt it about time we stop defining our natural selves negatively?


The bottom line is so-called type 4 hair is the curliest hair going. To juxtapose curly hair and so-called nappy hair is absurd and meaningless.


I don't see how someone using the word nappy to positively define and embrace their hair is negative. Just because you only see the term as negative doesn't mean someone else must also. I also don't see inherent negativity in defining nappy as different from curly. To me its a matter of personal definition, some people separate them, some blend them and others use them interchangeably

Just as if I said Liquids versus water. You see water is a type of liquid. So-called nappy hair is a type of curly hair.

We dont grow as a people by embracing perjorative terms about ourselves.

I understand why many people see the term as negative. But from my own life experiences its not, its just a way to describe hair. Its only negative when that type of hair is viewed as bad. Some people like the term because they see it as challenging the notion that highly textured hair is undesireable.
Its like how the term black used to be so negative because being of African descent was a negative. As people began to celebrate being of African descent and their "blackness" as Americans the term lost its negativity. I think thats what some of the ladies at the other site are trying to do.

I do understand and respect why some people dislike the word. You may not agree, but you should try to understand and accept that for others its not negative and has nothing to do with embracing the negative but rather with defining oneself on one's own terms.
Last relaxer 5/04
nappy, fuzzy, kinky, coily
transitioning until...
Some people do have hair that they would describe as not having any curl or coil pattern. You may disagree but a person can describe their own hair they way they like. I dont particularly like his system of classification, but Andre did not invent the idea of nappy differing from curly.
Originally Posted by Melantha
1.) I never said or implied that Andre invented the idea of nappy hair differing from curly hair.

The idea is absurd, but I never said Andre invented it.

There are all different kinds of curly hair. Unfortunately, those of us with the curliest versions have been denigrated by descriptions used.

I said, I believe Andre invented the idea of 4b...z pattern...non-curl forming hair. I dont believe that exists.

I think that some black people have damaged hair that wont form curls in its current state, but I do not believe that there are people with type 4b hair without a curl pattern.

2.) People can describe themselves and their hair any way they choose. That doesnt make it accurate or non-offensive. Just like I said earlier, most of us choose to be progressive and no longer call ourselves or answer to the descriptors Negroe or Colored.


I don't see how someone using the word nappy to positively define and embrace their hair is negative. Just because you only see the term as negative doesn't mean someone else must also. I also don't see inherent negativity in defining nappy as different from curly. To me its a matter of personal definition, some people separate them, some blend them and others use them interchangeably
The term nappy as it applies to hair is a derogatory term. As it applies to fabric, it does not have a negative connotation.

For some reason, some of us have decided to embrace such derogatory terms such as nappy or even the n-word and somehow turn these into positive descriptors.

I dont think that is a valid approach. But of course people can describe themselves any way they choose.

What is inaccurate is to make a distinction between curly hair and so-called nappy hair.

Nappy hair is curly hair. Nappy hair is a type of curly hair.

To make such an absurd distinction is to accept the idea of good and bad hair. That only certain types of curly hair deserve to be referred to as curly...and that the curliest hair is somehow no longer in the class of curly hair. It's ridiculous.

To make a distinction between humans and black people would be equally absurd. Black people area type of humans.

Or a distinction between orange juice and juice.

Or Toyotas and cars.

Or apples and fruit.

and on and on.

So-called Nappy hair is a type of curly hair.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
1.) I never said or implied that Andre invented the idea of nappy hair differing from curly hair.
...
I said, I believe Andre invented the idea of 4b...z pattern...non-curl forming hair. I dont believe that exists.
Same difference, same argument to me. Long before Andre's system people believed that certain hair types had little or no curl pattern, they called this type of hair kinky, nappy, fuzzy... whatever. Black people didn't all of a sudden see this hair as unique because of Andre, there was already a distinction between curly and nappy. Its more like in recent times people with nappy, kinky hair are seeing the similarities and using advice from wavy, curly people. And realize that some (but not all) can achieve curl or coil formation.
You don't believe there's 4b,c but have you actually conversed with ladies who describe their hair that way and looked at their albums?


I think that some black people have damaged hair that wont form curls in its current state, but I do not believe that there are people with type 4b hair without a curl pattern.

I personally believe that there is hair with no curl pattern. Obviously many ladies at NP feel that way and don't believe they are denigrating their hair by not including it under the curly banner.

2.) People can describe themselves and their hair any way they choose. That doesnt make it accurate or non-offensive. Just like I said earlier, most of us choose to be progressive and no longer call ourselves or answer to the descriptors Negroe or Colored.

Just because you feel that way doesn't make the term inaccurate and offensive, and it doesn't mean that people who use that term in a positive or neutral manner are somehow non-progressive in their thoughts and attitudes. Some view using the term as actually being very progressive.
Negro and Colored aren't used mainly because they're old fashioned and currently inaccurate. Most people feel that Black and African American are more accurate, especially given the growing numbers of "colored" people who don't fit or use those terms.


I don't see how someone using the word nappy to positively define and embrace their hair is negative. Just because you only see the term as negative doesn't mean someone else must also. I also don't see inherent negativity in defining nappy as different from curly. To me its a matter of personal definition, some people separate them, some blend them and others use them interchangeably
The term nappy as it applies to hair is a derogatory term. As it applies to fabric, it does not have a negative connotation.

For some reason, some of us have decided to embrace such derogatory terms such as nappy or even the n-word and somehow turn these into positive descriptors.
The term is derogatory to you.

For others its just a description. Unlike the n-word, nappy wasn't created solely to denigrate people of African descent. It was used to describe human features when Europeans saw that type of hair and deemed it similar to wool or the naps in carpet. Nappy became negative to describe hair because having tightly coiled and kinky hair was bad (because being of African descent was bad). If having that type of hair wasn't such a negative the term would never have become negative.
Silky is a term used for fabric and hair, the reason its not a bad term is because having straight hair has always been a positive in this country.

I dont think that is a valid approach. But of course people can describe themselves any way they choose.

What is inaccurate is to make a distinction between curly hair and so-called nappy hair.

Nappy hair is curly hair. Nappy hair is a type of curly hair.

To make such an absurd distinction is to accept the idea of good and bad hair. That only certain types of curly hair deserve to be referred to as curly...and that the curliest hair is somehow no longer in the class of curly hair. It's ridiculous.

To you.
Some see them as different. One because of actual hair care. Two because of the social stigma being greater for nappy hair.

Some people see nappy as a sub-set of curly.

Some just see hair as a spectrum and describe their hair as nappy because it falls in the highest textured end.

Just because someone uses the term doesn't mean they're separating themselves wholly from curlies or see themselves as separate and inferior.

Its ridiculous to assume that someone who embraces the term nappy, or sees a difference between napps and corkscrews, is somehow under-educated, backwards or unenlightened.
Originally Posted by AnikaNA
If the term bothers you so much maybe you should talk with the ladies at NP to get their perspective (and share yours). Or you could PM Dee for a response to your concerns.
Last relaxer 5/04
nappy, fuzzy, kinky, coily
transitioning until...
what the heck are "naps" if not tightly formed curls?

I'm sorry, say what you will but I do not think that referring to oneself with derogatory terminology such as "nappy" "ashy" "n-word" "naps" etc is the mark of a progressive mind.

Your historical rendition regarding the origin of the term is inaccurate. Nappy as most (if not all) other descriptions used to describe black people during the period of enslavement were derogatory, dehumanizing, and demeaning in nature.

The modern-day attempt to embrace such terminology is indeed an attempt to remove its historically negative connotation.

Negro and Colored are only outdated because black people made a concerted effort to no longer use these negative and inaccurate terms.

Similarly many of us have decided to abandon other negative and inaccurate descriptions of ourselves including the term "nappy."

By the way, despite what Andre and others have expressed and you seem to believe, scientists classify human hair as either Curly, Straight, or Wavy. There is no special category for "naps" with no curl pattern....simply because this type of hair does not exist.

Scientists classify African textured hair as tightly curled or tightly coiled. In other words, as I said, it is the curliest type of human hair.

Perhaps I will discuss my concerns with the ladies of np.com.

Thanks
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
Anika, I will say that just because you have not personally seen a 4B/zig zag type hair doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In fact there is a black woman with a website (I forget the name) who took one lone strand of her 4B hair and put it next to a ruler (she was trying to demonstrate how much her hair shrinks). The strand did not have ONE iota of a HINT of a curl. It was almost like an accordian. But it was beautiful nonetheless.

I've seen plenty of black women who have what would be considered 4B hair that just DOES NOT have a curl. I remember one main focus (that I happen to love) at Nappturality is trying to get black women to accept that all black hair is not curly and it's OKAY if it's not. Why are you so hard pressed for all black hair to be at least SOMEWHAT curly? If it's not, it's NOT. And if these women don't consider their hair to be curly, then so be it. And if you go on Nappturality talking about how 4B hair is also curly, you might be met with more backlash than you anticipate. If you think we're bad, they're worse. LOL. They'll be the FIRST ones to tell you their hair isn't curly and they are DAMN proud of it. And they should be.
Fotki PW: PM me for it!
Big Chopped: April 1, 2005
My Hair: Tight, thick springy curls with up to 90% shrinkage.

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