Nappturality... How could it be bad?

Anika, I will say that just because you have not personally seen a 4B/zig zag type hair doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In fact there is a black woman with a website (I forget the name) who took one lone strand of her 4B hair and put it next to a ruler (she was trying to demonstrate how much her hair shrinks). The strand did not have ONE iota of a HINT of a curl. It was almost like an accordian. But it was beautiful nonetheless.

I've seen plenty of black women who have what would be considered 4B hair that just DOES NOT have a curl. I remember one main focus (that I happen to love) at Nappturality is trying to get black women to accept that all black hair is not curly and it's OKAY if it's not. Why are you so hard pressed for all black hair to be at least SOMEWHAT curly? If it's not, it's NOT. And if these women don't consider their hair to be curly, then so be it. And if you go on Nappturality talking about how 4B hair is also curly, you might be met with more backlash than you anticipate. If you think we're bad, they're worse. LOL. They'll be the FIRST ones to tell you their hair isn't curly and they are DAMN proud of it. And they should be.
Originally Posted by AfroCurls
Oh I know who you are talking about , Her hair is awesome and she takes wonderful care of it , I posted her site in 4a , i think her name is crazy coil.. she can teach all of us ALOT!
3c very thick big hair
Henna girl

Anika, I will say that just because you have not personally seen a 4B/zig zag type hair doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In fact there is a black woman with a website (I forget the name) who took one lone strand of her 4B hair and put it next to a ruler (she was trying to demonstrate how much her hair shrinks). The strand did not have ONE iota of a HINT of a curl. It was almost like an accordian. But it was beautiful nonetheless.

I've seen plenty of black women who have what would be considered 4B hair that just DOES NOT have a curl. I remember one main focus (that I happen to love) at Nappturality is trying to get black women to accept that all black hair is not curly and it's OKAY if it's not. Why are you so hard pressed for all black hair to be at least SOMEWHAT curly? If it's not, it's NOT. And if these women don't consider their hair to be curly, then so be it. And if you go on Nappturality talking about how 4B hair is also curly, you might be met with more backlash than you anticipate. If you think we're bad, they're worse. LOL. They'll be the FIRST ones to tell you their hair isn't curly and they are DAMN proud of it. And they should be.
Originally Posted by AfroCurls

It has nothing to do with what I have seen and have not seen.

Geneticists classify human hair in 3 broad categories: Straight, Curly, and Wavy.

African (the type we are discussing so called 4a/4b) textured hair is classified as tightly coiled or tightly curled because of the shape of the hair follicle and the properties of the hair.

I'll go with a scientific description rather than an unscientific and inaccurate one based on erroneous anectodes.

It seems to me that many here have defined curly from a european standard and because African curly hair is different than caucasian curly hair, you seem to have sorely confused yourselves.

Once again, what is a "nap" if not a tight coil or curl?

Unless you are trying to say that this woman whose photos you saw had straight or wavy hair (which I strongly suspect you are not), there is only one choice left. ....Curly.

How an individual strand looks at any given time is due to a number of factors.

I have long curly hair. Depending on what products I have used and the condition of my hair, individual strands can look coily, springy, straight, or randomly folded up on themselves.

Seriously, look into hair types as they are scientifically classified and maybe the topic will become clearer to you.

This really is a pretty clearcut thing. Three types of hair: Curly, wavy, or straight.

There is no scientific classification of "nappy hair without a curl pattern." So-called nappy hair is simply very tightly coiled/curled hair.

It's not my opinion. It's not my desire to classify African hair one way or another. That's just reality.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
It was almost like an accordian.
An accordian shaped hair strand would indeed be indicative of curly hair.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
Anika, I will say that just because you have not personally seen a 4B/zig zag type hair doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In fact there is a black woman with a website (I forget the name) who took one lone strand of her 4B hair and put it next to a ruler (she was trying to demonstrate how much her hair shrinks). The strand did not have ONE iota of a HINT of a curl. It was almost like an accordian. But it was beautiful nonetheless.

I've seen plenty of black women who have what would be considered 4B hair that just DOES NOT have a curl. I remember one main focus (that I happen to love) at Nappturality is trying to get black women to accept that all black hair is not curly and it's OKAY if it's not. Why are you so hard pressed for all black hair to be at least SOMEWHAT curly? If it's not, it's NOT. And if these women don't consider their hair to be curly, then so be it. And if you go on Nappturality talking about how 4B hair is also curly, you might be met with more backlash than you anticipate. If you think we're bad, they're worse. LOL. They'll be the FIRST ones to tell you their hair isn't curly and they are DAMN proud of it. And they should be.
Originally Posted by AfroCurls
Oh I know who you are talking about , Her hair is awesome and she takes wonderful care of it , I posted her site in 4a , i think her name is crazy coil.. she can teach all of us ALOT!
Originally Posted by honiecurls
Odd that she would call herself crazy coil when she supposedly has no curl pattern in her hair.

coil=curl.

The problem is that some people have associated curliness with european or caucasian curliness...and the fact that African curliness is, in general, curlier and different....some would seek to classify it as something different.

Perhaps we need to change our standards from a european or caucasian standard to a more reality based one.


Why are you so hard pressed for all black hair to be at least SOMEWHAT curly?
This has nothing to do with me or what I wish.

Some African people have straight hair. Some have wavy hair. Some have looser curly hair. Some have more tightly curled hair (ie so-called 4a/4b).

On the continuum of human hair, you have straight on one end and curly on the other...

On one end you have the straightest type of hair (Perhaps some types of Asian hair or perhaps caucasian)...and on the other end you have the curliest type of hair (African).
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
The tight crimpedcurls of African hair derive from its twisted structure, like that of a spring

<snip>

All hair, even the apparently perfectly straight hair of Asian people, twists as it grows. The number of twists in a given length of hair determine how curly it is: the more twists there are, the curlier it will be. Some African hair has 12 times as many twists per centimetre as Caucasian hair.

The tightly curled hair of African people twists much more frequently than in the other groups. The hair shafts are markedly oval in shape, with definite edges. The cuticle is sharply kinked at the edges, and is especially easily damaged at these points. This curious shape is the reason for the vulnerability of African hair to all forms of physical and chemical trauma, and its consequent need for extreme care in handling and very thorough conditioning.

http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_47.htm


The brittleness of African hair adds to the illusion that it cannot be grown long. The tight curls create stresses at each turn in the hair fiber. The hair strands become weak and fragile, making them prone to breakage. As a result, tightly coiled hair tends to stay quite short.

http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=107



This type of hair is extremely tightly coiled, with a thick and compact appearance and feel. The hair's texture is similar to that of thick wool or cotton , and is usually black in color. Only persons of African decent usually have this type of hair,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro_textured_hair
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
Anika, I will say that just because you have not personally seen a 4B/zig zag type hair doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. In fact there is a black woman with a website (I forget the name) who took one lone strand of her 4B hair and put it next to a ruler (she was trying to demonstrate how much her hair shrinks). The strand did not have ONE iota of a HINT of a curl. It was almost like an accordian. But it was beautiful nonetheless.

I've seen plenty of black women who have what would be considered 4B hair that just DOES NOT have a curl. I remember one main focus (that I happen to love) at Nappturality is trying to get black women to accept that all black hair is not curly and it's OKAY if it's not. Why are you so hard pressed for all black hair to be at least SOMEWHAT curly? If it's not, it's NOT. And if these women don't consider their hair to be curly, then so be it. And if you go on Nappturality talking about how 4B hair is also curly, you might be met with more backlash than you anticipate. If you think we're bad, they're worse. LOL. They'll be the FIRST ones to tell you their hair isn't curly and they are DAMN proud of it. And they should be.
Originally Posted by AfroCurls

It has nothing to do with what I have seen and have not seen.

Geneticists classify human hair in 3 broad categories: Straight, Curly, and Wavy.

African (the type we are discussing so called 4a/4b) textured hair is classified as tightly coiled or tightly curled because of the shape of the hair follicle and the properties of the hair.

I'll go with a scientific description rather than an unscientific and inaccurate one based on erroneous anectodes.

It seems to me that many here have defined curly from a european standard and because African curly hair is different than caucasian curly hair, you seem to have sorely confused yourselves.

Once again, what is a "nap" if not a tight coil or curl?

Unless you are trying to say that this woman whose photos you saw had straight or wavy hair (which I strongly suspect you are not), there is only one choice left. ....Curly.

How an individual strand looks at any given time is due to a number of factors.

I have long curly hair. Depending on what products I have used and the condition of my hair, individual strands can look coily, springy, straight, or randomly folded up on themselves.

Seriously, look into hair types as they are scientifically classified and maybe the topic will become clearer to you.

This really is a pretty clearcut thing. Three types of hair: Curly, wavy, or straight.

There is no scientific classification of "nappy hair without a curl pattern." So-called nappy hair is simply very tightly coiled/curled hair.

It's not my opinion. It's not my desire to classify African hair one way or another. That's just reality.
Originally Posted by AnikaNA
Ladies, it really isn't that serious.

Nappy love to everyone ! :P
Jada1111

HAIR TYPE: 4a all over/3c around nape/edges; Last relaxer -4/4/02; Big chop - 4/16/03

http://public.fotki.com/jada1111/
PW: flower
Youre right Jada.

Curly love to you. :P
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
Do you mean this picture?

http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/textur...nstretched.jpg

If so..it looks curly to me
yes, it's my real hair, stop staring at it and NO you can't touch it
Do you mean this picture?

http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/textur...nstretched.jpg

If so..it looks curly to me
Originally Posted by cabolina

On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
Do you mean this picture?

http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/textur...nstretched.jpg

If so..it looks curly to me
Originally Posted by cabolina

Originally Posted by AnikaNA
That's about the size of my son's hair. Sometimes I'll find some all curled up together in a little circle. I think it only appears to look like z's because the curl is so small but surely Andre knows that it does not truly grow in a zig zag pattern.
http://public.fotki.com/Sunnedelight/
Exactly. It may 'look' like z's in some places (depending on from which angle you're looking) but they really aren't. Otherwise it wouldn't coil but form a 'square' . And her is indeed lovely, especially when her coils are so neatly formed.

Just my 2 cents
yes, it's my real hair, stop staring at it and NO you can't touch it
Do you mean this picture?

http://www.crazycoil.sili.net/textur...nstretched.jpg

If so..it looks curly to me
Originally Posted by cabolina

Originally Posted by AnikaNA
That's about the size of my son's hair. Sometimes I'll find some all curled up together in a little circle. I think it only appears to look like z's because the curl is so small but surely Andre knows that it does not truly grow in a zig zag pattern.
Originally Posted by sunnedelight
Yep, exactly.

As far as Andre, all I know is his book was very inaccurate when it came to describing black hair and it certainly wasnt pro-curly or pro-african hair.
On Rush Limbaugh: Rather than engage in the admittedly difficult task of justifying GOP policies rationally, the key to Limbaugh’s success is attracting an audience that actually yearns to be lied to.
Hi out their in cyber space i'm bettytoo . And i have what andre would called type 4b hair with a bit of 4a at the back. And my parents are both nigeria born and bred. Plus i'm not mixed with anything .Just black, black and blacker. My hair doesn't show a curl that much in picture. it just looks like a big ball of candyfloss in pictures . But you really see the curl when i shampoo it all the curls come out to play. But disappear when dry and goes back, to the land of candyfloss with the help of air.The things that bring out the curls are hair gel so far . I to have never see 4b hair with a zig zag pattern unless its been combed out or washed and the hair has dried. My nigeria relatives have tightly coiled hair too. Can i just say most type 4b people i know don,t use hair gel so you wouldn't see the curl patten. But most type 3c/4a used , hair gel so there hair always looks curly plus it a looser curl.I own discovered hair gel two months ago.And it surpise me it made my hair shine and bring the curls out to play. Point to consider my sister hairs as curly as my. But my hairs thick per hair stand and i've got more hair on my head.So her hair GETS MORE CURLY DEFINTION than my . I HOPE THAT ANSWERS SOME QUESTIONS .sorry i couldn't post some pictures but i will soon. . My forki address is http://public.fotki.com/BETTYTOO
hi everyone! i'd like to give my opinion:

This seems more like a perception issue, how one chooses to perceive a form. As Ani mentioned, science classifies hair as straight, wavy and curly. This is very, very general and I think it’s only used to simplify. However, in general, science does distinguish between a zig zag shape and a coil (what most people identify as a curl) and truth is some black women have a zig zag pattern somewhere in their hair. I’ve never seen the whole head in this pattern but most black women have several textures in one head and I can definitely say I’ve seen this pattern exist in some of the strands (and not like the one seen in the picture with the ruler either, that is a coil to me.) Some people’s hair will bend at the cusp of a curve very sharply, creating what is described as a zig zag pattern. However I’ve noticed that even in the same strand of hair, I’ve seen smoother curves (or coils). My guess is that 4b or 4c hair may have more stands that curve sharply giving you the appearance of a head full of “zig zags”. Regardless this is still a type of curl. Do some people choose to be more specific in describing the bends or lack there of in their hair? Yes. Scientists are constantly revising and redefining however so really, maybe one day we will see a further breakdown in the classification of hair types. Either way, the extent to which a woman or man chooses to be specific in the categorization of their hair is a matter of personal choice. It’s not wrong or incorrect to be more descriptive. I think you are both right in a way.

I for one agree with the description of zig zag pattern when many of the strand’s axis of rotation bend at steeper angles. To me, it is a more accurate depiction of 4c and some 4b hair, I get a more accurate visualization. Fact of the matter is many of the scientists are white men (I'm not saying all, but I'd venture to say most) who classify and give names as best as they see fit, within the margins of politically correctness. Its obvious from this board that some of us have bad feelings about zig zag patterns and associate it with ‘nappy hair’ which is associated with coarseness which is looked down upon (why, we choose to see it this way is beyond me and a separate argument all together). If we are talking molecular composition, then yes, I'd be more likely to exlusively accept the scientific communities label. But in fact, what is being debated is a DESCRIPTION. It’s more subjective than objective if you ask me and I can totally see why some would choose to further describe their hair as having a zig zag pattern.
i know some will not like my thoughts, but lets be cordial

i am a faithful member of that website. it is the most informational, tell it like it is, home feeling site ive been to! the ladies there have a unique mentality that takes some getting used to, but overall...they are absolutely right in their intentions.

alot of the topics/discussions here would never be allowed on np.com...simply b/c that site preaches acceptance.

personally, i become annoyed by the constant curl defining topics and wonder why i never see too many posts like " wow i got a great afro today!" instead, its my hair was frizzy, or my hair isnt its curliest! im like, thats what afro textured hair does, its gets frizzy, sometimes its not defined...thats the versatility of it...its all beautiful, whats the big deal?

hope im not coming off b.itchy, but i think that after you've been apart of a community that prides themselves on "nappy hair," it will throw you for a curve to join one where it isnt too celebrated.

dont get me wrong, im here almost daily, and have gained a wealth of knowledge as far as products/techniques that bring out the best in my hair, and have chatted w some great ladies! and for that, im grateful for this site...but i will admit that sometimes the lack of "nappy pride" gives me the blues.

as far as is nappturality that bad...in the words of our founder deecoily, nappturality aint for everybody!
loose 4a, silky meets cottony
routine: co-wash, add leave in or plain water, shake & go
staples: elucence poo & conditioners, V05 & suave naturals, jessicurl too shea, AO.
I see it as a website that should be respected for what it promotes. That's why I don't post on it. I've learned a lot from that website as well, but I understand it caters to a certain type of hair. So who would I be to impose on this when there are other websites that cater to my own hair texture and needs?
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I'm inclined to agree with JazziJen (my hair twin).

Nappturality damn sure aint for everbody. They are thousands of members strong and their mission is their mission. It took me awhile to accept this at first because I thought it should be inclusive of ALL black natural hair. Not so. If you can't get with it, you are more than welcome to leave. It may seem harsh to people at first, but when I think about the big picture, for a lot of those women, NP is the only place they can go to where there is admiration and support for the type of hair they have. Most of us, in our daily lives, are complimented regularly on our hair. Everyday, I have somebody digging in my hair, telling me how "pretty and curly" it is. I'm not saying they don't receive any compliments at all, but the mentality those compliments come from is rampant in our community and it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. They absolutely NEED that space and truthfully, I understand why they protect it the way they do. They HAVE to or they'll have nowhere else to go.

On a shallow level, it DOES bother me that chicks like me with thick curly hair are kind of ignored on that site. It DOES bother me that you have to be careful how you say things about said curly hair or risk sparking a ten page debate where people accuse you of thinking you're better than someone because you have "good hair". I'm still not sure how I feel about the idea that "the 3C category is made for people who are afraid to call their hair nappy" because I don't think that's it. When I see the hair of chicks on NP with "nappy" hair, my hair doesn't look like that. AT ALL. My hair and Deecoily's hair, for instance, is totally different. Sometimes it does bother me that chicks like myself, who have "black girl" curly hair but aren't really all that consumed with "ultimate curl definition by any means necessary" and stuff like that don't really fit in totally here or at NP (I personally ask about curl products just because I want to see what my hair is capable of. I'm still a novice at this but I am beginning to see what my hair can and can't do and I style it appropriately).

But I've also seen members come in there and tell Deecoily she was a nappyheaded, hatin' ass female canine who was jealous of curly hair. I've read the 94389332 threads where someone comes in with fake concern about "EVERYBODY SAYS I HAVE GOOD HAIR AND OMG THAT BOTHERS ME SOOOOO MUCH". I've seen enough since I've been there to understand that in the grand scheme of things, it's best for me to just chill, contribute when I can and enjoy what I can get from them. It's not my role to change NP and I would never want to, nor would Dee and the members allow it. Although my hair isn't exactly the same, I have learned a lot of valuable information and to be honest, Nappturality is mostly responsible for me having natural hair right now. My hair is the healthiest it's ever been in my life because of that website. You have to pick and choose your battles...and this is one where I don't mind conceding. The positives far outweigh the negatives.
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My Hair: Tight, thick springy curls with up to 90% shrinkage.

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