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Old 10-06-2006, 09:18 AM   #21
 
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World~curls, I can see what you're saying in terms of the broader societal images of the hair persons of a certain "racial" background would be seen as having.

However, I disagree with some of your other assumptions of "recognizable types".

I don't know that there is a "recognizable type" when it comes to the hair a Latina is expected to have on her head, even by non-Latin people. For example, 3c-curls might be something a New Yorker is used to seeing on NY-based Latinos, who are predominantly of Caribbean heritage. But would this be "Latin hair" to someone in LA who is more familiar with Chicanos?
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Old 10-06-2006, 09:50 AM   #22
 
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On the idea of "multiracial" hair; I don't think everybody just assumes it will be in the 3b/c range, to be honest. I think the imagery you are referring to is based on the assumption of the hair type of a stereotypical wavy-straight haired white person and a black person with a full-blown 'fro. I wonder how for how many multiracial unions this image is actually accurate.

This is my point; given the vast range of different "races" that could form a "multiracial" union, and the sheer range of hair types that could result, how could Stacey be so presumptuous and glib as to say "you'd have to be mixed to understand", as if there was some universally recognizable characteristic to the hair of every "mixed" person on the planet, or even most?

Surely someone with hair that is most similar to yours, regardless of whether they are considered "mixed", "black identified", "latin" or "white", or any other description, is best placed to understand it.

This is why I noted Thandie Newton, and Mya as comparisons. Both are, like the BB owner, products of "interracial relationships" but I doubt they would have much understanding of Stacey's own hair as their own contrasts with hers quite a bit. Farless those "multiracial" people with straight or wavy hair types, not to mention all the different textures.

Also, regarding your point about prevalence of various hair types among the black community, I would say that "3c hair" is not only as common as "type 4" hair amongst black people, but also that most people of non African heritage would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between the two.
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Old 10-06-2006, 03:18 PM   #23
 
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I doubt he had been contemplating adopting the child for very long. He didn't initially adopt her. Jolie did and I seem to recall it wasn't long after they got together. (I know WAAAY too much about these people.)

As far as planning and knowing as much as possible about her heritage and culture, we don't know what sort of research and care they've given to knowing about the culture of her country and its people. What we're talking about is her hair and whether her parents had a clue what to do with it. As far as advance planning on what to do with her hair, how many black women on this board hadn't a clue until they were adults as to how to care for their natural hair, have come to the board b/c they don't want to relax their child's hair but have no idea to care for it in its natural state, how many non-black mothers of biracial (usually black & white parents) come to this board with no idea what to do with their child's hair. It's pretty obvious most people don't give a good deal of thought as to how to groom and care for their child's hair while the child is in utero. Why should A & B be any different in their adoption plans?
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:34 PM   #24
 
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It's definitely true that hair types vary among groups, and definitely among people who self identify as "mixed." I can also see a pretty clear demarcation of the "typical" or "prevalent" hair type of white + asian mixes (increasingly common in certain parts of the country) and black + white or asian or latino mixes. But what I've noticed in frequenting curly hair sites - which include audiences for blended beauty and other curly specific hair products, 9X out of 10, the self-identified curly haired "mixed" person is claiming a black + non black background. Of course there are exceptions, Sapphire Wingstar is an exception and there are others. But among curly haired mixed people, who would tend to frequent a curly hair site as opposed to Long Hair Community with more type 1s and 2s, there is a prevalent or more typical hair type that is clustered around 3b - could be "pure" 3b, could be 3a/b, could be 3b/c, as I said. There seem to be other common features or hair traits as well.

As for "latino hair" judging by mainstream marketing and latino communities I have known (which is very broad and diverse), the types would include 1 but more stereotypically 2, 3a, 3a/b or 3b, with a silky texture. That's what is more commonly seen and thought of. As for latinos with 3c hair, from the carribean as you suggest, my sense is that the hairtype is seen as being closer to supposed "black hair," especially if the hair texture is not silky.

I'm really not trying to say that everyone within a certain "race" or "ethnicity" or even a combination of them will always have a certain hair type. I just think that there are some commonalities and, thus, social perceptions. That's all.
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Old 10-07-2006, 06:36 PM   #25
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discgirl
As far as planning and knowing as much as possible about her heritage and culture, we don't know what sort of research and care they've given to knowing about the culture of her country and its people. What we're talking about is her hair and whether her parents had a clue what to do with it.
Hair is an important part of most African cultures ESPECIALLY Ethiopian culture, so yes, if they cared more than superficially about the child's heritage that would have come under the cultural research.

Any responsible person who intends on adopting/giving birth to a child who is of a different culture than theirs will do their research on the culture. It follows that if the child is known/likely to have a different hair type than them, they will do the necessary research and find out what's best. Believe me, it is not that uncommon; I know people who have done so.

It is irresponsible for parents to overlook this and I am sure you've heard the stories of countless women and girls who have suffered because of their (however well-meaning) parents' nonchalance and incompetence in this area.

I wonder how long it took for Brad to notice his kid has "black person's hair". What a revelation that that kind of stuff could be growing out of a black person's scalp.

There was no excuse for that little girl to be wandering around with bits of rag on her head for so long. I shudder to think of what carelessness lurked berneath. Point blank, If you can't care for the child's hair, why not get a stylist to do it? They aren't short of the cash and quite a few celebs do so. Well, better late than never I suppose.
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Old 10-07-2006, 06:43 PM   #26
 
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But among curly haired mixed people, who would tend to frequent a curly hair site as opposed to Long Hair Community with more type 1s and 2s, there is a prevalent or more typical hair type that is clustered around 3b - could be "pure" 3b, could be 3a/b, could be 3b/c, as I said. There seem to be other common features or hair traits as well.
I would agree that BB's comments might make sense on a curly hair board like this, if only in a vague and irritating sense, but she made her comments on hairboutique.com which is not a curly-specific site. No doubt, a lot of the people who frequent that site might be of multiracial heritage, and I'm guessing most of them will not have that special multiracial hair that only mixed people understand. Who knows how many of them even have curly hair?

She contradicts herself with the chart she linked on that thread, of "multiracial hair" which shows curls from 3a-4b. I do think her choice of words is very much linked with her own desires to create a little compartment above "black" for herself and select other non"black identified" blacks, to borrow her own terminology.
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Old 10-07-2006, 07:04 PM   #27
 
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As for "latino hair" judging by mainstream marketing and latino communities I have known (which is very broad and diverse), the types would include 1 but more stereotypically 2, 3a, 3a/b or 3b, with a silky texture. That's what is more commonly seen and thought of. As for latinos with 3c hair, from the carribean as you suggest, my sense is that the hairtype is seen as being closer to supposed "black hair," especially if the hair texture is not silky.
I am not saying this hair type is not seen as being more "black"; it is. However, it is pretty common, to the extent that in NY, a Latina with that hair type is not exactly running the risk of not being recognized as Latina solely because of it. In other parts of the country this may or may not be the case.

In a nutshell, I don't think there is as general and as recognizable an idea of "latin hair" as your post suggests, beyond not having light hair and not having an afro (as true as either characteristics are of many Latinos).

Quote:
I'm really not trying to say that everyone within a certain "race" or "ethnicity" or even a combination of them will always have a certain hair type. I just think that there are some commonalities and, thus, social perceptions. That's all.
As I said earlier in the thread, I see where you are coming from with the idea of generalized perspectives of certain groups and their hair types. I cannot deny these exist; they are the basis of this discussion. Clearly, I do not agree with you on the specific content of these generalized perspectives, fair enough. We've already established these generalizations do not ring true across the board, and I was certainly not accusing you of espousing this view in your post.
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Old 10-07-2006, 07:15 PM   #28
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeamaria

I would agree that BB's comments might make sense on a curly hair board like this, if only in a vague and irritating sense, but she made her comments on hairboutique.com which is not a curly-specific site. No doubt, a lot of the people who frequent that site might be of multiracial heritage, and I'm guessing most of them will not have that special multiracial hair that only mixed people understand. Who knows how many of them even have curly hair?
This part of your post made me curious about what they do over there, so I checked out their hair boards. Link: http://talk.hairboutique.com/

The organization of their boards is rather strange. There is a whole separate forum for "African American Hair" plus other forums for "Hair and Special Events," "Hair Extension Topics" etc.

Then, under the umbrella category of "Hair Talk," which is its own forum, there are separate folders for "Asian Hair", "Curly Hair", "Dreadlocks", "Short Hair", "Straight Talk" etc... Makes me appreciate the more straightforward hair type and general hair and non hair boards here at Naturally Curly. How do you even know where to post on Hairboutique It's very confusing.

ETA: Here's a thread from that other site about someone's child's "Bi-racial" hair. It's interesting that there seems to be a presumption of what this hairtype is without anyone really spelling things out. I've seen that happen before here, as well. http://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=39644

This thread is more explicit. http://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=28869
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Old 10-07-2006, 07:54 PM   #29
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeamaria

As I said earlier in the thread, I see where you are coming from with the idea of generalized perspectives of certain groups and their hair types. I cannot deny these exist; they are the basis of this discussion. Clearly, I do not agree with you on the specific content of these generalized perspectives, fair enough. We've already established these generalizations do not ring true across the board, and I was certainly not accusing you of espousing this view in your post.
Oh, that's fine. It's no problem to disagree. It's no big deal and your posts are interesting.

Spiral-nc - Thanks
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:25 PM   #30
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeamaria

She contradicts herself with the chart she linked on that thread, of "multiracial hair" which shows curls from 3a-4b. I do think her choice of words is very much linked with her own desires to create a little compartment above "black" for herself and select other non"black identified" blacks, to borrow her own terminology.
Last thoughts for the road. You could be right about this, although I don't know her and what she really thinks. It's a shame that the notion of "multicultural" or "mixed hair" has to be tainted by this kind of thinking, but there it is.

I do like her products (blended beauty), but I don't love them and I haven't repurchased in a long time. Same goes for Curls. For some reason, I like the bb and Curls conditioners A LOT more than the stylers. I'm very picky about stylers, and my favorites are just leaves ins and gels, and not all this butter, custard, pudding stuff. In this same marketing niche, I will admit to loving the Mixed Chicks leave in. Whenever I go back to using it, I get such moist curls. Love it, and recommend it to others
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:37 PM   #31
 
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:39 AM   #32
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral-nc
Interesting....

I read through that thread for the first time, and what struck me was this:

Everyone was saying that there is no such thing as "multiracial hair", "white hair", "black hair", etc. And I'm inclined to agree from a scientific point of view. But humans go on what they see most often, not on science, unfortunately.

I also just read a thread on another site about Brad Pitt referring to his daughter's hair as "black people's hair". Some were offended, but MOST people thought it was okay and made sense - he was talking about the type of hair that black people TEND to have.

So if Brad Pitt can say "Black people's hair" or "black hair". And black people can say "white hair", which I've seen quite a bit. Then why can't a multiracial person say "multiracial hair"? I don't think that there really is such a thing, scientifically speaking. But then again, there's no such thing as race, scientifically speaking. And yet we use racial terms quite casually, all the time, as if they refered to something real.
it's not the "multiracial hair" identifcation that got to me..... it's her attitude surrounding it..... and the way in which she is using the term..... and particularly the smackdown of the "black-identified" person...... (i don't care what she calls herself.... biracial, white black whatever, that's not the issue) she definitely seems repulsed at the idea of sharing a hairtype with a black person

i find it ironic that she has the cream called happy nappy - as she seems anything but......

(i don't know anything about the brad pitt comments so i would have to read it for myself - although he and AJ (particularly AJ) have already said far too many disgusting things for my tolerance level)

personally i wouldn't be bothered if someone referred to my hair on my head as "black or afro hair" because it is stereotypically black - i have maybe only once seen a white person with my type hair...... but i have also seen many latino, mixed-race etc with the same hair type
but to refer to my hair in a manner that describes it as the only type of hair black people have is simply ignorant and silly - does that make sense

and her divisions are just plain silly.... you could divide the hair types 1-4 in the same manner if you wanted..... just within type 4 you could come up with at least 8 types at least i'm sure..... but what would be the point of splitting it - can't we all just use the same conditioners?
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:46 AM   #33
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeamaria
World~curls, I can see what you're saying in terms of the broader societal images of the hair persons of a certain "racial" background would be seen as having.

However, I disagree with some of your other assumptions of "recognizable types".

I don't know that there is a "recognizable type" when it comes to the hair a Latina is expected to have on her head, even by non-Latin people. For example, 3c-curls might be something a New Yorker is used to seeing on NY-based Latinos, who are predominantly of Caribbean heritage. But would this be "Latin hair" to someone in LA who is more familiar with Chicanos?
exactly
i have a (straight-haired) latina friend who was really bothered by someone's comments of this nature..... skin color and appearance-wise she's fits the general american stereotype of what a latina should look like
the funniest part is the person was complimenting her on how you latin women all have such nice long thick dark curly hair(or something like that)..... and her hair, while long, is not thick or dark in any sense and not a curl anywhere!
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Old 10-08-2006, 03:50 AM   #34
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeamaria
Quote:
Originally Posted by spiral-nc

So if Brad Pitt can say "Black people's hair" or "black hair". And black people can say "white hair", which I've seen quite a bit. Then why can't a multiracial person say "multiracial hair"?
The problem is that "multiracial" is an even less specific description than "black", which must be as general as racial categories come.

It is idiotic of her to talk of a monolithic idea of "multiracial hair". Will a "multiracial" child born of a Chinese mother and Swedish father have this "multiracial" hair and find Blended Beauty products beneficial to their tresses? what about the "multiracial" child of a Bolivian father and a Pakistani mother?

If we even limited this to people born of say, one white parent and one black parent; take Thandie Newton, Mya, and Ms. Blended Beauty herself; what does their hair have in common that makes them distinct from the rest of "black hair"?

The final irony is that in her ridiculous chart of the "multiracial hair types" she shows a fair-enough range of curly hair types typical of black people, including those whose blackness she wouldn't dismiss as "black identified", whatever the hell that means.
exactly
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Old 10-08-2006, 01:50 PM   #35
 
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it's not the "multiracial hair" identifcation that got to me..... it's her attitude surrounding it..... and the way in which she is using the term..... and particularly the smackdown of the "black-identified" person...... (i don't care what she calls herself.... biracial, white black whatever, that's not the issue) she definitely seems repulsed at the idea of sharing a hairtype with a black person

i find it ironic that she has the cream called happy nappy - as she seems anything but......
Totally. I find it particularly twisted that she is obviously targeting a segment of consumers with which she is so averse to being associated. I guess some people will sell to anyone.

You know, I would bet anything that the bulk of her customers are those repulsive "black identified" people, rather than from the "multiracial" niche she was hoping to exploit.
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Old 10-08-2006, 01:58 PM   #36
 
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personally i wouldn't be bothered if someone referred to my hair on my head as "black or afro hair" because it is stereotypically black - i have maybe only once seen a white person with my type hair...... but i have also seen many latino, mixed-race etc with the same hair type
but to refer to my hair in a manner that describes it as the only type of hair black people have is simply ignorant and silly - does that make sense
Yes, this monolithic idea of "black person's hair" is what really pulled the veil off Brad Pitt's and Blended Beauty's ignorance. I don't think there is any hope left for the latter, given her many warped pronouncements, but perhaps Brad is at the beginning of a very slow learning curve; I would hope he and Angelina can inform themselves a little more on the issue. Perhaps some of Angelina's cousins can help.
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Old 10-08-2006, 02:54 PM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by Matchless~Curls
The organization of their boards is rather strange. There is a whole separate forum for "African American Hair" plus other forums for "Hair and Special Events," "Hair Extension Topics" etc.

Then, under the umbrella category of "Hair Talk," which is its own forum, there are separate folders for "Asian Hair", "Curly Hair", "Dreadlocks", "Short Hair", "Straight Talk" etc... Makes me appreciate the more straightforward hair type and general hair and non hair boards here at Naturally Curly. How do you even know where to post on Hairboutique It's very confusing.

ETA: Here's a thread from that other site about someone's child's "Bi-racial" hair. It's interesting that there seems to be a presumption of what this hairtype is without anyone really spelling things out. I've seen that happen before here, as well.
Definitely, the hair-, rather than race-based setup we have here is what impressed me about NC in the first place. The Andre system has several flaws, but at least it doesn't dump "African American hair" into some category away from "real hair".

If things here had been as sloppy, thoughtless, and backwards as what you describe at hairboutique, I certainly wouldn't have stuck around long.

I think the general ethos of the forums in which I discuss hair has perhaps made me expect other people to be a little more enlightened about this stuff than they actually are. That's kinda ironic as it seemed rather futuristic to me when I first found this site.

The threads you linked are prime examples. It is really scary that kids have to grow up with parents so disdainful of their hair. It suggests a lot of ignorance about and contempt towards a huge part of who their child is, and where they come from.
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Old 10-08-2006, 04:55 PM   #38
 
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Well said.
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Old 10-08-2006, 05:31 PM   #39
 
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jea-m et al.

oh dear

look at one of the questions on the site.... can scroll down the question box..... given the thread topic the timing is uncanny

the answer is interesting - she does not address the question directly....

http://www.blended-beauty.com/Hair_Types_Chart.html

soyoko: Hi I am mixed Asian/African, have 3b.9 hair with some 3c. My sister has 4a and 4b. would you say that mixed type for hair will need different treatment from nonmixed 4a/b hair.Our grandma takes care of my lil sis hair and she has 4a.b hair also.

after reading her site i'm not surprised this person is confused how to deal with their "biracial hair"..... hey grandma........ guess what - you're not able to understand my hair!
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Old 10-08-2006, 05:36 PM   #40
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchless~Curls

ETA: Here's a thread from that other site about someone's child's "Bi-racial" hair. It's interesting that there seems to be a presumption of what this hairtype is without anyone really spelling things out. I've seen that happen before here, as well. http://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=39644

This thread is more explicit. http://talk.hairboutique.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=28869
matchless
thx for the link
the comments on the link by the mothers made me feel really sad

especially the first one AND the one where the woman said something like she had to use natralaxer and then hot comb/straighten in order for her daughter's hair to be "pretty"



i have a different hair type from my mother's family and can't imagine anyone saying such a thing
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