As a 4b, do you at all feel alienated from the 4as, 3cs, and above? - Page 4

peachfuzzz · 08-14-2010, 05:15 PM

It's also easy to misdiagnose due to the different descriptions given by each typing system (which by the way, are all different also). I had a wonderful sister on another forum help me type my hair. I see lots of spirals and ringlets while my hair is wet and with conditioner, but they vanish when my hair is dry. Andre's description says something about a z pattern. My hair doesn't have a z pattern. It has an s or o pattern. The pictures from those typing systems don't say anything about manipulation, but manipulation can change the way your curls/kinks look naturally.

AlikaIssa · 08-16-2010, 04:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Curlcraze4

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Originally Posted by SakeenaKai

I don't know how someone can have 4b hair and misdiagnose it. LOL!

I tend to agree. Your hair is what it is, it doesn't really change. And hair type if not what your hair is when it is wet, othewise I'd be a 2.

I think that you do need to wet the hair in order to figure out the curl pattern. If the hair is dry it should be allowed to dry with out manipulation in order to prevent the curl pattern from being altered or disrupted. I have found that even towel drying hair can disrupt the curl pattern.

check out the following post to see what I mean im lost in a 4b world

breathe · 08-16-2010, 12:03 PM

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Originally Posted by knt1229

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Originally Posted by SakeenaKai

I don't know how someone can have 4b hair and misdiagnose it. LOL!

It's easy to mistake 4b for 4a. Like the other poster explained she saw coils in her hair and assumed she was 4a. But her coils can't be seen from a distance which makes her a 4b. The only difference between 4a and 4b is that 4a coils can be seen from a distance. 4b has coils but they are so small it looks like a cottony cloud. But close up you can see the coils.

I don't think distance is the determinant of 4a/4b hair. I think it has a lot more to do with how much your hair clumps together. My entire head looks 4b at times because of shrinkage and how dense my hair is... if I operated by your distance definition, I'd be ignoring my 3c and 4a sections entirely.

forbee · 08-17-2010, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knt1229

Yep. It seems like every woman on the internet is a 3c/4a. But I also don't always relate to people who claim 4b. 4b is always described as hard, dry, wiry, coarse, thick, and unmanageable even by people who claim to have it. These traits are not unique or specific to 4b.

It irks me when people act like only 4b hair can have those negative characteristics when any hair type can be coarse, wiry, and unmanageable. My 4b is none of those things. My hair is soft and manageable with medium strands and medium thickness. Always has been.

But yea....4b is the red headed step child of the hair typing system. And no matter how much other hair types exclaim about it's beauty they all breath a sigh of relief when they realize their new growth has a S shaped wave or curl pattern.

I've never understood this either. I've never found my hair to be hard, dry (except during winter, but a lot of people deal with dryness in the Michigan winter, seriously), or unmanageable. And my strands are fine and I don't have particularly thick hair either. But my hair is more as tightly coiled as they come. It looks the same wet when dry--you can't really see coils. But when you take out an individual strand it's a tiny spiral, slightly smaller than pen spring size.

I admit that I used to envy other hair types, but now I am having a serious love affair with my 4b hair. The one thing I still occasionally wish is that it were a bit thicker because you can still see scalp when I do twists, but it looks a heck of a lot better than my paper-thin relaxed hair ever did.

EllyEllyOxenFree · 08-17-2010, 11:20 AM

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Originally Posted by breathe

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Originally Posted by knt1229

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Originally Posted by SakeenaKai

I don't know how someone can have 4b hair and misdiagnose it. LOL!

It's easy to mistake 4b for 4a. Like the other poster explained she saw coils in her hair and assumed she was 4a. But her coils can't be seen from a distance which makes her a 4b. The only difference between 4a and 4b is that 4a coils can be seen from a distance. 4b has coils but they are so small it looks like a cottony cloud. But close up you can see the coils.

I don't think distance is the determinant of 4a/4b hair. I think it has a lot more to do with how much your hair clumps together. My entire head looks 4b at times because of shrinkage and how dense my hair is... if I operated by your distance definition, I'd be ignoring my 3c and 4a sections entirely.

I don't understand how the distance thing makes sense being that there can be a number of factors (density, hair color) that determine if you can see the curls vividly from a distance? I agree more with how the hair clumps - 4b hair does have a curl pattern but it seems that the strands do not clump together as much (less consistency in the pattern of each strand), making the curls less visible and forming the cloud pattern.

KeiLaniKoils · 08-17-2010, 12:58 PM

At the beginning of my natural hair journey, I thought I was a 4b. Then as my journal continued, I paid more attention to my hair and it was a 4a.
Plus, my hair doesnt really seem to fro =-/
I tried rockin the fro plenty of times and its hard for me. I'm not saying its hard for 4a's, just me.
The curls hang on the side after they go up

xyziolo · 08-17-2010, 01:09 PM

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Originally Posted by AfrikanCoils

At the beginning of my natural hair journey, I thought I was a 4b. Then as my journal continued, I paid more attention to my hair and it was a 4a.
Plus, my hair doesnt really seem to fro =-/
I tried rockin the fro plenty of times and its hard for me. I'm not saying its hard for 4a's, just me.
The curls hang on the side after they go up

I love my hair, but wouldn’t mind being able to rock a dope fro.

Caught Jill Scott on the Monique show (didn’t even know she had a show) and she had THE DOPEST afro…OMG…she looked absolutely stunning….FABULOUS, okay?!?!?

Eighty7 · 08-17-2010, 08:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Shellye

Tinkerbell, congratulations on the BC!

I don't understand why your friend would make those comments. Was she expecting you to be black Rapunzel after seven months? Kinky hair (and curly hair) shrinks. As you can see on many hair forums, lots of ladies do thoroughly enjoy their "wooly" hair!

If everyone ran around with the same 3c-Kinky-Curly-Curling-Custard-jheri-curl the world would be a very boring place. Be unique and rock your 4b 'do!

lol when some people use it their hair does look a little "soul glo" ish.

Indeed · 08-18-2010, 12:37 AM

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Originally Posted by rachelolivia2010

I love all types of hair. From 1a to 4b(or 4c). 4b hair holds twist so well. Parts of my hair wont hold twist for their life. So i get fed up and end up taking them down. The hair is awesome. NOBODY but us have 4b hair naturally. We're the only ones.

I don't have 4b hair, but still. It's pretty amazing to see how small a curl can get.

I appreciate the compliments. Thank for replying. =)

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Originally Posted by auntcurly

The typing thing doesn't bother me per se. But what really angers me is people who are so closed-minded and only relate to what they have been conditioned to. This is especially revelant to mothers who ruin their daughters' hair with no-lye relaxers, dry ponytails or styles that grease down the hair and keep the hair follicles clogged.

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Originally Posted by auntcurly

I've been on gossip blogs and whenever they show Angelina Jolie and her Ethiopian daughter you should read the comments from mostly black women about that child's hair. Just because it's not greased down and plastered to the girl's skull. What they fail to understand is that this little girl will have a head of healthy hair when she comes of age and she can decide on her own what to do with her hair. Meanwhile, girls whose mothers torture their hair with chemicals, too-tight braids and grease will see the potential of really good hair go down the drain.

Honestly, do little girls need straight hair? Shouldn't the be playing and doing the things that make for a good childhood? Girls have all of their adult life to wrestle with haircare. When you're a kid, you should be allowed to be a kid and not feel less just because your hair is kinky.

I agree 100% with your post. It was hard growing up as a little black girl because I was never really able to do too many fun things with my hair out because it would "mess up" my hair. It's ridiculous that all of these little girls are getting their hair done so early. Kids should be kids...they have their whole lives to worry about their hair or clothes look.

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Originally Posted by knt1229

Yep. It seems like every woman on the internet is a 3c/4a. But I also don't always relate to people who claim 4b. 4b is always described as hard, dry, wiry, coarse, thick, and unmanageable even by people who claim to have it. These traits are not unique or specific to 4b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by knt1229

It irks me when people act like only 4b hair can have those negative characteristics when any hair type can be coarse, wiry, and unmanageable. My 4b is none of those things. My hair is soft and manageable with medium strands and medium thickness. Always has been.

But yea....4b is the red headed step child of the hair typing system. And no matter how much other hair types exclaim about it's beauty they all breath a sigh of relief when they realize their new growth has a S shaped wave or curl pattern.

AMEN.

You just took all the words out of my mouth. I despise the way 4b hair is described. You'd think that from the descriptions, we walk around with dry bushes on our heads. The mizani system's descriptions of afro are irk me quite a bit. For example:

Type IV (curly)
TEXTURE: Thin to thick GROWTH PATTERN: Grows down from the scalp, then curls BODY / VOLUME: Body, volume and bounce ELASTICITY: Moderate stretching with moderate return POROSITY: Slightly raised to raised cuticle. Prone to fizz.
Type VIII (zig zag coiled)
TEXTURE: Thin to thick or combination GROWTH PATTERN: Curls directly from the scalp BODY / VOLUME: Compact with no movement ELASTICITY: Stretching with minimal return POROSITY: Raised cuticle. Frizzy, tangled with some knots.
So the coiled hair is completely tangled while the "curly" hair is knot-free 100% of the time, right? Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by atx_eve

Alienated - no. It's not their fault they have that type of hair and wish to share their knowledge with anybody who will listen. And if you don't see enough videos of people who look like you...make some! Often times, these youtube channels are ladies figuring it out for the first time! Yes, even the 3bs don't know what to do at first!

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Originally Posted by atx_eve

the way i see it, everybody has something the other doesn't. No, my hair won't fall down my shoulders, but a 3b will never know what it's like to have a puff or naturally rock an afro. I have to stretch my hair out SO much to get a ponytail, but someone with ringlets can't hold a two strand twist as long as i can (and without product even!)

It's funny really. I've had black people tell me i don't have "kinky" hair, which is hilarious seeing as both my parents are Kenyan...African, people! THE motherland herself! hahaha. I was absolutely baffled. Not only do i consider myself "black" but also "African". both of which are VERY broad terms, but are still a part of my identity.

Someone will always be envious of someone else. Good thread! 'Preciate the thoughts

That's a good way to put it. Also, I'm glad you liked the thread.

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Originally Posted by violetmauve

Many of us still subscribe to the good hair/bad hair mentality. Luckily for me I didn't grow up hearing x-hair type is better than y-hair type and when I decided to go natural I had no real intentions to wear "curly" styles because 1. I wanted to wear a fro and 2. I was already familiar with my hair type. 4B hair is a common hair type and we hardly see it in its natural state because it's being relaxed, weaved, straightened or covered up. I also believe 4bs are least likely to go natural and/or get discourage easily.

I think you're right...and it's a shame, too.

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Originally Posted by AlikaIssa

I registered today just to respond to this thread.

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Originally Posted by AlikaIssa

I am not into the hair typing thing but if I had to choose I would say that I am a 4b. However, based on Andre Walker's classification system I would be a 4a. When wet my hair curls up into tiny spirals/ringlets. However, due to the huge amount of shrinkage, it is hard to see the curl definition unless you look closely this is why I would class myself as a 4b.

I have a patch of hair that is at the nape of my head which is a totally different texture to the rest. It does'nt shrink as much as the rest and the curls are a lot more looser. Based on Andre's classification system I would say that the patch is a 3c. That silky patch annoys me immensely.....

When I wear my hair in twists (my favourite hairstyle) the back of my hair often comes undone. The tighter curls hold the twists really well but the looser curls are always slipping out. It's so frustrating.... just yesterday I prayed to God to make that patch like the rest of my hair because it is irritating me so much.

Therefore, I understand when 3c ladies complain about the 4b patch that they have. It is'nt easy to work with two completely different textures. Different hair textures work well with different styles. My 3c patch would work better with wash and go styles, while the rest of my hair works best with twists. So it is really inconvenient to have two very different textures.

I feel special now that you mentioned that. =)

But anyway, I guess I can see why dealing with 2 textures can get annoying, but I still can't help but be a little bothered by that.

CoilyOne1812 · 08-18-2010, 05:24 AM

Hair typing is confusing. That's why so many people are over it. I posted a thread a long time ago with little Paint drawings of different types of hair strands on this board to try to clear it up for myself. This site used Andre's description and originally it said z-pattern strand with no curl on the end=4B. There's nothing in the description about clumping. I've seen hair like that only once in my life in person and I think once in a photo online. Some people in my crude drawing thread refused to believe z-strand even existed. Some felt that s-strand hair is automatically 4B. That struck me as funny because I have s-strand hairs that range from sizes 2 to 4.

I looked at three or four of the lovely links that AmberBrown posted and I've always called this hair non-clumping 4A because I can see s-pattern and and/or a closing O curl on the end of the strand. According to my most literal interpretation of the original description, that's still 4A, no matter how tiny and individualistic the strands want to be. Maybe everyone should all just agree that 4B is the non-clumping 4 size hair, no matter if it has s, z, o or whatever.

By that definition, my front/crown area is 4B. It is a different party from the rest of my hair, in terms of thirst and appearance. I am one of the multi-type curlies complaining about the clumps hanging down under my fluffy hair.

And also complaining about the rare 2s and 3s randomly mixed in all over just preventing any kind of unmanipulated cohesion. I don't feel isolated because I have an every curl thing going on up top. I go to 4A first because it's most active (3C is too slow/dead too) and I feel like that's the size/clump type of the majority of my curls. All of us with 4B hair can probably get this board popping by resolving to be patient and post our original threads ONLY here instead of on 4A.

ReynaCR · 08-18-2010, 11:52 AM

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Originally Posted by knt1229

Yep. It seems like every woman on the internet is a 3c/4a. But I also don't always relate to people who claim 4b. 4b is always described as hard, dry, wiry, coarse, thick, and unmanageable even by people who claim to have it. These traits are not unique or specific to 4b.

It irks me when people act like only 4b hair can have those negative characteristics when any hair type can be coarse, wiry, and unmanageable. My 4b is none of those things. My hair is soft and manageable with medium strands and medium thickness. Always has been.

But yea....4b is the red headed step child of the hair typing system. And no matter how much other hair types exclaim about it's beauty they all breath a sigh of relief when they realize their new growth has a S shaped wave or curl pattern.

I wish you could come take a look ay my hair and share some of your hair care techniques.. maybe there is something that I am just not doing or something... I really love myself and my hair... but yes it is 4b and exactly how you described it ( i bolded that part above).

JahNaturalDezign · 08-18-2010, 01:31 PM

I would like to see the 4b forum pick up more. I'm guilty of posting mostly in 4a. This discussion of hair type going on right now on the 4a forum. I don't like the hair typing system. It's misused, divides, and gives hair hierarchy (in the sad minds of some). I have a clear mix of 4a & 4b and I wish my whole head was 4b because it is a BREEZE to detangle! The 4a areas of my hair is hell detangling.

I also don't understand why people say 4b isn't curly when clearly it is or else it would be straight right? I call my 4b areas "unorganized" curls, they go all over the place where as the 4a curls all curl and clump together to give a more defined look. I think 4 hair all together is undesirable for those it matters to. I could care less.

AmberBrown · 08-18-2010, 10:57 PM

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Originally Posted by JahNaturalDezign

I would like to see the 4b forum pick up more. I'm guilty of posting mostly in 4a. This discussion of hair type going on right now on the 4a forum. I don't like the hair typing system. It's misused, divides, and gives hair hierarchy (in the sad minds of some). I have a clear mix of 4a & 4b and I wish my whole head was 4b because it is a BREEZE to detangle! The 4a areas of my hair is hell detangling.

I also don't understand why people say 4b isn't curly when clearly it is or else it would be straight right? I call my 4b areas "unorganized" curls, they go all over the place where as the 4a curls all curl and clump together to give a more defined look. I think 4 hair all together is undesirable for those it matters to. I could care less.

To the bolded, I know black women with natural hair that does not curl. Instead it...kinks for lack of a better word. If not for gravity defying fierceness of "afro-textured" (another gem of a term lol) hair their strands would appear straight.

Re-lurking.

xyziolo · 08-19-2010, 07:38 AM

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Originally Posted by AmberBrown

Quote:

Originally Posted by JahNaturalDezign

I would like to see the 4b forum pick up more. I'm guilty of posting mostly in 4a. This discussion of hair type going on right now on the 4a forum. I don't like the hair typing system. It's misused, divides, and gives hair hierarchy (in the sad minds of some). I have a clear mix of 4a & 4b and I wish my whole head was 4b because it is a BREEZE to detangle! The 4a areas of my hair is hell detangling.

I also don't understand why people say 4b isn't curly when clearly it is or else it would be straight right? I call my 4b areas "unorganized" curls, they go all over the place where as the 4a curls all curl and clump together to give a more defined look. I think 4 hair all together is undesirable for those it matters to. I could care less.

To the bolded, I know black women with natural hair that does not curl. Instead it...kinks for lack of a better word. If not for gravity defying fierceness of "afro-textured" (another gem of a term lol) hair their strands would appear straight.

Re-lurking.

EXACTLY!
I have talked about this ad nauseam. Ok, you can find curls in 2 - 4 hair types, but regardless waves are waves, not curls, and kinks are kinks, not curls. If you need a magnifying glass to find the curl it isn't curly hair, it's kinky or afro-textured. To me, curly hair is hair that appears curly. Simple.

AlikaIssa · 08-19-2010, 09:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Curlcraze4

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Originally Posted by AmberBrown

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Originally Posted by JahNaturalDezign

I would like to see the 4b forum pick up more. I'm guilty of posting mostly in 4a. This discussion of hair type going on right now on the 4a forum. I don't like the hair typing system. It's misused, divides, and gives hair hierarchy (in the sad minds of some). I have a clear mix of 4a & 4b and I wish my whole head was 4b because it is a BREEZE to detangle! The 4a areas of my hair is hell detangling.

I also don't understand why people say 4b isn't curly when clearly it is or else it would be straight right? I call my 4b areas "unorganized" curls, they go all over the place where as the 4a curls all curl and clump together to give a more defined look. I think 4 hair all together is undesirable for those it matters to. I could care less.

To the bolded, I know black women with natural hair that does not curl. Instead it...kinks for lack of a better word. If not for gravity defying fierceness of "afro-textured" (another gem of a term lol) hair their strands would appear straight.

Re-lurking.

EXACTLY!
I have talked about this ad nauseam. Ok, you can find curls in 2 - 4 hair types, but regardless waves are waves, not curls, and kinks are kinks, not curls. If you need a magnifying glass to find the curl it isn't curly hair, it's kinky or afro-textured. To me, curly hair is hair that appears curly. Simple.

When I checked out the word Kinky in the dictionary I got the following definition:

kink·y

– 1. full of kinks; closely twisted: a kinky wire.

2. (of hair) closely or tightly curled.

3. Slang . marked by unconventional sexual preferences or behavior, as fetishism, sadomasochism, or the like.

Therefore, it is clear that kinky hair is curly hair - the curls are just extremely close together.

Think about it, when a person with kinky hair has a child with a person with extremely straight hair, there is a high probability that the child will have loosely curled hair. Where did those curls come from? In my opinion it's clear that the child's hair is a mixture taken from both parents. The curls have been taken from the kinky haired parent and are more looser in appearance because of the straight haired parent.

The fact that a person's curl pattern can not easily be seen does not mean that it does not exist. That person simply has not found a way to define their curls.

I have been styling kinky hair for the past 13 years (many of my clients are from West Africa and have what would be classified as 4b hair) and I have never found anyone's hair that did not have a curl pattern.

xyziolo · 08-19-2010, 10:58 AM

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Originally Posted by AlikaIssa

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Originally Posted by Curlcraze4

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Originally Posted by AmberBrown

To the bolded, I know black women with natural hair that does not curl. Instead it...kinks for lack of a better word. If not for gravity defying fierceness of "afro-textured" (another gem of a term lol) hair their strands would appear straight.

Re-lurking.

EXACTLY!
I have talked about this ad nauseam. Ok, you can find curls in 2 - 4 hair types, but regardless waves are waves, not curls, and kinks are kinks, not curls. If you need a magnifying glass to find the curl it isn't curly hair, it's kinky or afro-textured. To me, curly hair is hair that appears curly. Simple.

When I checked out the word Kinky in the dictionary I got the following definition:

kink·y

– 1. full of kinks; closely twisted: a kinky wire.

2. (of hair) closely or tightly curled.

3. Slang . marked by unconventional sexual preferences or behavior, as fetishism, sadomasochism, or the like.

Therefore, it is clear that kinky hair is curly hair - the curls are just extremely close together.

Think about it, when a person with kinky hair has a child with a person with extremely straight hair, there is a high probability that the child will have loosely curled hair. Where did those curls come from? In my opinion it's clear that the child's hair is a mixture taken from both parents. The curls have been taken from the kinky haired parent and are more looser in appearance because of the straight haired parent.

The fact that a person's curl pattern can not easily be seen does not mean that it does not exist. That person simply has not found a way to define their curls.

I have been styling kinky hair for the past 13 years (many of my clients are from West Africa and have what would be classified as 4b hair) and I have never found anyone's hair that did not have a curl pattern.

I understand that. But at what point do you stop calling hair curly? I am not a hairstylist but by the simple virtue of being Dominican I am VERY well versed in hair types. For example - my mom has 3/c 4/a hair and we do not consider that curly but kinky hair. She does not really have curls (s form) more like zig-zags and z's. I do not define that as curls. My dad - on the other hand - has 2/a hair. I would not look at my dad and say - you have curly hair. No, his hair has about two waves in it (he had it shoulder length in his twenties and I have the pics). My sister and I inherited 3b/c hair - which is CURLY. Completely S shaped. You do not need to examine it to determine it is curly.

EllyEllyOxenFree · 08-19-2010, 01:12 PM

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Originally Posted by Curlcraze4

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlikaIssa

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Originally Posted by Curlcraze4

EXACTLY!
I have talked about this ad nauseam. Ok, you can find curls in 2 - 4 hair types, but regardless waves are waves, not curls, and kinks are kinks, not curls. If you need a magnifying glass to find the curl it isn't curly hair, it's kinky or afro-textured. To me, curly hair is hair that appears curly. Simple.

When I checked out the word Kinky in the dictionary I got the following definition:

kink·y

– 1. full of kinks; closely twisted: a kinky wire.

2. (of hair) closely or tightly curled.

3. Slang . marked by unconventional sexual preferences or behavior, as fetishism, sadomasochism, or the like.

Therefore, it is clear that kinky hair is curly hair - the curls are just extremely close together.

Think about it, when a person with kinky hair has a child with a person with extremely straight hair, there is a high probability that the child will have loosely curled hair. Where did those curls come from? In my opinion it's clear that the child's hair is a mixture taken from both parents. The curls have been taken from the kinky haired parent and are more looser in appearance because of the straight haired parent.

The fact that a person's curl pattern can not easily be seen does not mean that it does not exist. That person simply has not found a way to define their curls.

I have been styling kinky hair for the past 13 years (many of my clients are from West Africa and have what would be classified as 4b hair) and I have never found anyone's hair that did not have a curl pattern.

I understand that. But at what point do you stop calling hair curly? I am not a hairstylist but by the simple virtue of being Dominican I am VERY well versed in hair types. For example - my mom has 3/c 4/a hair and we do not consider that curly but kinky hair. She does not really have curls (s form) more like zig-zags and z's. I do not define that as curls. My dad - on the other hand - has 2/a hair. I would not look at my dad and say - you have curly hair. No, his hair has about two waves in it (he had it shoulder length in his twenties and I have the pics). My sister and I inherited 3b/c hair - which is CURLY. Completely S shaped. You do not need to examine it to determine it is curly.

Please stop. Not this again. If anyone wants to see your points on this topic they can go to the other thread.

mekahwbb · 08-19-2010, 02:02 PM

I don't have 4b hair but i just want to say that if it curls it's a curl. I really don't get why people refer to 4 category hair as "kinky" just because it has a tighter curl than type 3 hair. A curl is a curl there is no need for that distinction. If it doesn't curl it's not a curl simple!

shadyFLEX · 08-19-2010, 03:00 PM

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Originally Posted by mekahwbb

I don't have 4b hair but i just want to say that if it curls it's a curl. I really don't get why people refer to 4 category hair as "kinky" just because it has a tighter curl than type 3 hair. A curl is a curl there is no need for that distinction. If it doesn't curl it's not a curl simple!

I agree

teachermrw · 08-19-2010, 04:40 PM

about the term, "kinky" that is troubling to some? I don't consider my type 4 hair as curly. It's kinky. Others may struggle with the term, but I am completely comfortable with it.