As a 4b, do you at all feel alienated from the 4as, 3cs, and above?

I find the word "kinky" troubling, i know that changes from person to person depending on how we individually perceive/receive the word, and where we live as well has some influence. To me and to the people where i come from kinky is the same as saying nappy, and people take offense to the word. As do i, i think the word kinky is offensive, rude, and ill intended. But that's the way I personally think of it. If someone else doesn't mind it that's their prerogative. But this post isn't about that or what i posted before so I'm gonna stop posting about a topic that has no place here Sorry everybody ...



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Last edited by mekahwbb; 08-19-2010 at 06:28 PM.
I find the word "kinky" troubling, i know that changes from person to person depending on how we individually perceive/receive the word, and where we live as well has some influence. To me and to the people where i come from kinky is the same as saying nappy, and people take offense to the word. As do i, i think the word kinky is offensive, rude, and ill intended. But that's the way I personally think of it. If someone else doesn't mind it that's their prerogative. But this post isn't about that or what i posted before so I'm gonna stop posting about a topic that has no place here Sorry everybody ...
Originally Posted by mekahwbb
That's understandable, no worries. I don't think most people have a problem with using the word kinky (I'm okay with kinky but I can't stand nappy), it's more a problem with the refusal to recognize kinky hair as curly from some people. By definition in the English language - as seen in the dictionary, it is curly - the term is inclusive. That's all.
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Last edited by ellepixie; 08-20-2010 at 01:34 AM.
In my post, I said "I know black women with natural hair that does not curl. Instead it...kinks for lack of a better word." If anyone disagrees and has never seen a black person with non-curly hair (personally hard for me to believe, but ok)...that's fine! But let's not argue semantics based on the failure of my vocabulary...or perhaps the failure lies with hair lingo on the whole. Stereotypical black hair (not the loose curls/waves/whatever that lots of black peopledo have) does not fall into the category of curly.It doesn't look curly. Webster's can say whatever it wants but that has nothing to do with what actually is. It seems that because of a lack of a relevant word to describe "black" hair (nappy being determined unacceptable by some?) it's been lumped into the category of curly.

As for "finding the right product to define the curl"...what??! Lol, I guess a relaxer is just the right product to define straight hair?

....How did this thread devolve into this? Lol to re-rail, 4ber's regardless of whether your hair curls, kinks, or napps--it's beautiful. Call it what you wanna but make sure you own it because other people will try to tear you down because of it.

It's easy to mistake 4b for 4a. Like the other poster explained she saw coils in her hair and assumed she was 4a. But her coils can't be seen from a distance which makes her a 4b. The only difference between 4a and 4b is that 4a coils can be seen from a distance. 4b has coils but they are so small it looks like a cottony cloud. But close up you can see the coils.
Originally Posted by knt1229
I don't think distance is the determinant of 4a/4b hair. I think it has a lot more to do with how much your hair clumps together. My entire head looks 4b at times because of shrinkage and how dense my hair is... if I operated by your distance definition, I'd be ignoring my 3c and 4a sections entirely.
Originally Posted by breathe
I don't understand how the distance thing makes sense being that there can be a number of factors (density, hair color) that determine if you can see the curls vividly from a distance? I agree more with how the hair clumps - 4b hair does have a curl pattern but it seems that the strands do not clump together as much (less consistency in the pattern of each strand), making the curls less visible and forming the cloud pattern.
Originally Posted by ellepixie
When I look at my 4a hair compared to my 4b what Elle is describing is exact. The 4b is curly its just not perfectly spiraling like the 4a. It looks like that slinky some of us has as a child that got all tangled up.
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I don't have 4b hair but i just want to say that if it curls it's a curl. I really don't get why people refer to 4 category hair as "kinky" just because it has a tighter curl than type 3 hair. A curl is a curl there is no need for that distinction. If it doesn't curl it's not a curl simple!
Originally Posted by mekahwbb
I agree with you.

I dont normally use the word 'kinky' to describe hair. I only used it in my previous post to emphasise my point. Here in the UK (where I was born and raised) 'kinky' is not a word that is generally used to describe hair. When people use the word 'kinky' it normally relates to some kind of sexual activity. For example a guy might say 'that girl is really kinky in bed'.

Furthermore, the word 'nappy' is another term that is'nt really used in the UK to describe hair. Over here a 'nappy' is a baby's diaper.
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In my post, I said "I know black women with natural hair that does not curl. Instead it...kinks for lack of a better word." If anyone disagrees and has never seen a black person with non-curly hair (personally hard for me to believe, but ok)...that's fine! But let's not argue semantics based on the failure of my vocabulary...or perhaps the failure lies with hair lingo on the whole. Stereotypical black hair (not the loose curls/waves/whatever that lots of black peopledo have) does not fall into the category of curly.It doesn't look curly. Webster's can say whatever it wants but that has nothing to do with what actually is. It seems that because of a lack of a relevant word to describe "black" hair (nappy being determined unacceptable by some?) it's been lumped into the category of curly.

As for "finding the right product to define the curl"...what??! Lol, I guess a relaxer is just the right product to define straight hair?

....How did this thread devolve into this? Lol to re-rail, 4ber's regardless of whether your hair curls, kinks, or napps--it's beautiful. Call it what you wanna but make sure you own it because other people will try to tear you down because of it.
Originally Posted by AmberBrown
Peace and love AmberBrown,

I'm not sure if you were referring to my post when you made the underlined remark because you did'nt quote me.

Nonetheless, I would like to clarify that I did not say that a person needs to find the right product to define their curl. I said '....that person simply has not found a way to define their curls'. I find that it all relates to the way that a person's hair is handled whilst being washed.

Anyway, this post has strayed off the topic completely so I wont continue any further.
I'm a 4b When I first started off coming to the forum I noticed the lack of activity in the 4a and 4b sections but I didn't think it was because people didn't like our hair. The whole hair typing thing confuses though. I just think there is a LOT of misinformation out there so people stay away. Over the past year, it has gotten a lot better.

Like QueenOfKinks my hair will still feel wiry and course even after intense moisture treatments. It shrinks into a 2 inch TWA even though I have about 9 -10 inches. But I wouldn't change it if I could.

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http://neemsnthings.blogspot.com
I'm a 4b When I first started off coming to the forum I noticed the lack of activity in the 4a and 4b sections but I didn't think it was because people didn't like our hair. The whole hair typing thing confuses though. I just think there is a LOT of misinformation out there so people stay away. Over the past year, it has gotten a lot better.

Like QueenOfKinks my hair will still feel wiry and course even after intense moisture treatments. It shrinks into a 2 inch TWA even though I have about 9 -10 inches. But I wouldn't change it if I could.
Originally Posted by Neems
there surely is a lot of misinformation out there... .

But um... yeah. I gotta get a camera and get up to date here! 4b hair doesnt necessarily have to have coils. My hair WILL NOT coil unless I do it with my fingers, I have to force it. As a matter of fact, I put my hair in two strand twists over the weekend, and right now I took one loose and the whole section of hair was tangled (guess getting locks wouldn't be a problem, eh?) Now my hair looks like starter locs. This thing ain't got no curl.. and I only use kinky curly for softness and moisture balance (does a good job with that!)

Hey ya'll, have a blessed day.. and remember, no rifting! Let's just be natural sistas and live in peace, love and harmony.
Reyna

"Don't look back and ask why, look forward and ask why not!?" - Unk.
Alienated - no. It's not their fault they have that type of hair and wish to share their knowledge with anybody who will listen. And if you don't see enough videos of people who look like you...make some!Often times, these youtube channels are ladies figuring it out for the first time! Yes, even the 3bs don't know what to do at first!

the way i see it, everybody has something the other doesn't. No, my hair won't fall down my shoulders, but a 3b will never know what it's like to have a puff or naturally rock an afro. I have to stretch my hair out SO much to get a ponytail, but someone with ringlets can't hold a two strand twist as long as i can (and without product even!)

It's funny really. I've had black people tell me i don't have "kinky" hair, which is hilarious seeing as both my parents are Kenyan...African, people! THE motherland herself! hahaha. I was absolutely baffled. Not only do i consider myself "black" but also "African". both of which are VERY broad terms, but are still a part of my identity.

Someone will always be envious of someone else. Good thread! 'Preciate the thoughts
Originally Posted by atx_eve
GREAT POST!!! I typed a much long "ranponse" about this but NVM you said it better
"You have one mind use it, one body take care of it, and one life live it!"

MY ROUTINE:



i totally agree. i'm not a 4b, I think I'm more in the 4a category (might possibly be 4b, I'm not exactly sure). But I feel like everywhere I look the natural black woman on tv doesn't have an afro like me she has bi-racial curls and every tutorial I've ever seen on Youtube shows someone with texture unlike mine and it's frustrating because it's like am I the only one with hair like this? What am I doing wrong? I swear sometimes I just want to shave my hair off!
4a & 4B should be 1 forum because its rare to find a head of just one texture, i am 4a 4b i make post on both here and the 4a forum but thats why i dont like hair typing, its a way to segregate us. ITS SOOO STUPID AND IM OVER IT
hair type: 4a VERY dense

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Last edited by dee-nature; 09-05-2010 at 04:01 PM.
Yes, from my experience, 4bs are less prone to go natural and may even trick themselves into believing they have a different hair type post-relaxer. It is a really uniform society in which we live.

I'm another one that also has 4a but now reading more closely I may be all 4b or mostly b anyhow. I agree about the typing - it can have some advantages but all these numbers and letters take me back to algebra class. Not someplace I want to go ya'll.
4a & 4B should be 1 forum because its rare to find a head of just one texture, i am 4a 4b i make post on both here and the 4a forum but thats why i dont like hair typing, its a way to segregate us. ITS SOOO STUPID AND IM OVER IT
Originally Posted by dee-nature

But why don't I feel offended by the hair typing?? At all. I feel mostly black women take offense. Maybe there is a denial factor there. I mean, I don't care that I'm not 1, 2's, or 3a, or a straight 3b for that matter! I am a 3b/c and that's fine with me. I like my hair just fine.
People need to stop getting defensive and accept who and what they are. Plain and simple.
i didn't read the entire thread but i've been on this board for over 10 years when there used to be just one hair forum now we're lucky to have a little more differentiation but honestly i go to 4a more because more people post there. i wish 4a and 4b were combined. it would make life easier. many of the product recommendations and styling suggestions would work for most 4's if they customize based on their own needs.

as far as typing, i don't really even get into it or worry about it because many of the habits that are good for my hair are of the general 4 variety so i don't feel the need to dissect it an analyze it to have happy hair. i know my hair is kinky, not coily or whatever. i'm happy with my hair and when i'm not it has nothing to do with my hair texture or type itself but rather my techniques and styling, or lack of.

i did have locs for almost 6 years while being on here and didn't post much in the hair boards at all but it's been very helpful after i cut my locs to be on these boards. a lot of stuff gets repeated as new folks come and veterans fade off. lately i've gotten more hair advice and enjoyment out of reading a select few hair blogs. the pics, reviews and articles seem more helpful to me and if i feel the need to post there's always the comments section but i mostly just read and learn.
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Last edited by luvmylocs; 09-10-2010 at 02:38 PM.
4a & 4B should be 1 forum because its rare to find a head of just one texture, i am 4a 4b i make post on both here and the 4a forum but thats why i dont like hair typing, its a way to segregate us. ITS SOOO STUPID AND IM OVER IT
Originally Posted by dee-nature

But why don't I feel offended by the hair typing?? At all. I feel mostly black women take offense. Maybe there is a denial factor there. I mean, I don't care that I'm not 1, 2's, or 3a, or a straight 3b for that matter! I am a 3b/c and that's fine with me. I like my hair just fine.
People need to stop getting defensive and accept who and what they are. Plain and simple.
Originally Posted by Curlcraze4
I don't think she was offended, just frustrated. I really don't think people who are offended by hair typing are in denial either. Broken down in the simplest of forms it's a separation (period).

It's not a race thing, or "good hair" thing, or a denial thing, They're mad because it's a separator that gives way to all of those negative things above. (Proof is in this thread alone people feel alienated...)

No matter what intention Andrae had in the first place (And I'm sure they were good one's) the separation is none the less what goes hand in hand with the typing system.

It's not people "Not accepting who they are" It's people refusing to let others put a label on them. Which i personally think is very "self accepting", because they love their hair without having some compulsive need to know what their hair type is, or to separate themselves from others.

Also I don't think it's fair to point out a specific "race" as being most offended by typing, I'm sure this forum and many others are populated with people of many different cultural backgrounds, and I'm sure a dislike of hair typing is shared amongst a mass of them.

Well that's my two cents.



Around apl but going to wl
coily, wavy, tightly curly, kinky, nappy hair
Natural products are the bomb.
4a & 4B should be 1 forum because its rare to find a head of just one texture, i am 4a 4b i make post on both here and the 4a forum but thats why i dont like hair typing, its a way to segregate us. ITS SOOO STUPID AND IM OVER IT
Originally Posted by dee-nature

But why don't I feel offended by the hair typing?? At all. I feel mostly black women take offense. Maybe there is a denial factor there. I mean, I don't care that I'm not 1, 2's, or 3a, or a straight 3b for that matter! I am a 3b/c and that's fine with me. I like my hair just fine.
People need to stop getting defensive and accept who and what they are. Plain and simple.
Originally Posted by Curlcraze4
I don't think she was offended, just frustrated. I really don't think people who are offended by hair typing are in denial either. Broken down in the simplest of forms it's a separation (period).

It's not a race thing, or "good hair" thing, or a denial thing, They're mad because it's a separator that gives way to all of those negative things above. (Proof is in this thread alone people feel alienated...)

No matter what intention Andrae had in the first place (And I'm sure they were good one's) the separation is none the less what goes hand in hand with the typing system.

It's not people "Not accepting who they are" It's people refusing to let others put a label on them. Which i personally think is very "self accepting", because they love their hair without having some compulsive need to know what their hair type is, or to separate themselves from others.

Also I don't think it's fair to point out a specific "race" as being most offended by typing, I'm sure this forum and many others are populated with people of many different cultural backgrounds, and I'm sure a dislike of hair typing is shared amongst a mass of them.

Well that's my two cents.
Originally Posted by mekahwbb
Very well said. There are many women on this board who are educated about their hair and therefore have a mutual dislike for "hair typing." It is what it is - nothing more than a "separator" b/c it's just a description of what curls look like, when you could easily use that description to describe your curls - corkscrew, s curls, waves, tight, etc.
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I think the hair typing does more harm than good. When I went natural people weren't into hair types so much. All of us were lumped together as natural. Now there is so much separation.

On my blog, I feature many women who would be considered in the 4b category. All of our textures are beautiful, and they should all be showcased.


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But why don't I feel offended by the hair typing?? At all. I feel mostly black women take offense. Maybe there is a denial factor there. I mean, I don't care that I'm not 1, 2's, or 3a, or a straight 3b for that matter! I am a 3b/c and that's fine with me. I like my hair just fine.
People need to stop getting defensive and accept who and what they are. Plain and simple.
Originally Posted by Curlcraze4
I don't think she was offended, just frustrated. I really don't think people who are offended by hair typing are in denial either. Broken down in the simplest of forms it's a separation (period).

It's not a race thing, or "good hair" thing, or a denial thing, They're mad because it's a separator that gives way to all of those negative things above. (Proof is in this thread alone people feel alienated...)

No matter what intention Andrae had in the first place (And I'm sure they were good one's) the separation is none the less what goes hand in hand with the typing system.

It's not people "Not accepting who they are" It's people refusing to let others put a label on them. Which i personally think is very "self accepting", because they love their hair without having some compulsive need to know what their hair type is, or to separate themselves from others.

Also I don't think it's fair to point out a specific "race" as being most offended by typing, I'm sure this forum and many others are populated with people of many different cultural backgrounds, and I'm sure a dislike of hair typing is shared amongst a mass of them.

Well that's my two cents.
Originally Posted by mekahwbb
Very well said. There are many women on this board who are educated about their hair and therefore have a mutual dislike for "hair typing." It is what it is - nothing more than a "separator" b/c it's just a description of what curls look like, when you could easily use that description to describe your curls - corkscrew, s curls, waves, tight, etc.
Originally Posted by ellepixie
Ok, so if people started describing their hair as: corkscrew, tight curls, loose curls, fuzzy and tight, etc. it would lead RIGHT BACK TO THIS. It is just something to describe hair, not separate people. I stand by the denial argument.

I don't think she was offended, just frustrated. I really don't think people who are offended by hair typing are in denial either. Broken down in the simplest of forms it's a separation (period).

It's not a race thing, or "good hair" thing, or a denial thing, They're mad because it's a separator that gives way to all of those negative things above. (Proof is in this thread alone people feel alienated...)

No matter what intention Andrae had in the first place (And I'm sure they were good one's) the separation is none the less what goes hand in hand with the typing system.

It's not people "Not accepting who they are" It's people refusing to let others put a label on them. Which i personally think is very "self accepting", because they love their hair without having some compulsive need to know what their hair type is, or to separate themselves from others.

Also I don't think it's fair to point out a specific "race" as being most offended by typing, I'm sure this forum and many others are populated with people of many different cultural backgrounds, and I'm sure a dislike of hair typing is shared amongst a mass of them.

Well that's my two cents.
Originally Posted by mekahwbb
Very well said. There are many women on this board who are educated about their hair and therefore have a mutual dislike for "hair typing." It is what it is - nothing more than a "separator" b/c it's just a description of what curls look like, when you could easily use that description to describe your curls - corkscrew, s curls, waves, tight, etc.
Originally Posted by ellepixie
Ok, so if people started describing their hair as: corkscrew, tight curls, loose curls, fuzzy and tight, etc. it would lead RIGHT BACK TO THIS. It is just something to describe hair, not separate people. I stand by the denial argument.
Originally Posted by Curlcraze4
If that's true, then why are there women in every category who think the system is worthless? If what you say is true, only women with "bad curls" would have a problem with the system. I don't think it's the names themselves that people don't like, it's the fact that people DO separate by each hair type. That's a fact, can't dispute that.

I have seen women ask for advice about their hair and when someone gives it to them and doesn't have the same type, they're like, "Yea sorry you don't have the same hair as me I only want [insert hair type here] to answer," when we all know well and good that hair texture & porosity are more helpful. Personally, I'll ask someone for advice with low porosity hair in a SECOND, no matter what their hair type, because their hair is more likely to absorb products like mine and we probably have the same problems with moisture. You're a 3b/c; I'm a 3c/4a - if the women on this 4b thread told us we had to leave because we aren't 4b, do you think that would be okay? I've seen that happen, and I don't think it would be as "cut and dry" if we only used words to describe our hair (and I still don't think it's necessary to have forum sections divided by type).

So my point is...I don't think it's the names so much, it's the "end all be all" perception some people have of the system, when its "purpose" is frankly, wrong. If you can't understand that, oh well.

The thread is going away from the original topic again, so I'm finished. Apologies to the OP for going off topic!
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I don't think she was offended, just frustrated. I really don't think people who are offended by hair typing are in denial either. Broken down in the simplest of forms it's a separation (period).

It's not a race thing, or "good hair" thing, or a denial thing, They're mad because it's a separator that gives way to all of those negative things above. (Proof is in this thread alone people feel alienated...)

No matter what intention Andrae had in the first place (And I'm sure they were good one's) the separation is none the less what goes hand in hand with the typing system.

It's not people "Not accepting who they are" It's people refusing to let others put a label on them. Which i personally think is very "self accepting", because they love their hair without having some compulsive need to know what their hair type is, or to separate themselves from others.

Also I don't think it's fair to point out a specific "race" as being most offended by typing, I'm sure this forum and many others are populated with people of many different cultural backgrounds, and I'm sure a dislike of hair typing is shared amongst a mass of them.

Well that's my two cents.
Originally Posted by mekahwbb
Very well said. There are many women on this board who are educated about their hair and therefore have a mutual dislike for "hair typing." It is what it is - nothing more than a "separator" b/c it's just a description of what curls look like, when you could easily use that description to describe your curls - corkscrew, s curls, waves, tight, etc.
Originally Posted by ellepixie
Ok, so if people started describing their hair as: corkscrew, tight curls, loose curls, fuzzy and tight, etc. it would lead RIGHT BACK TO THIS. It is just something to describe hair, not separate people. I stand by the denial argument.
Originally Posted by Curlcraze4
I'm sorry but i think your in denial, I've seen your other post about "real curlies and etc." it seems that you're hell bent on separating us curly girls.

I don't care what word you use to describe a curl at the end of a day it's a curl. And i don't care how "in denial" everyone thinks black women are about our hair. People as individuals are stronger then a lot of people on this board (you included) give them credit for. everyone is NOT in denial.

That's why they choose not to hair type. Because if "corkscrew, tight curls, loose curls, fuzzy and tight" lead to Andrea's System then "1, 2, 3, 4, a, b, c" eventually lead to "good hair" and "bad hair". And you are REALLY in denial if you don't think this where things end up, Because once again look at all the posts on this website that speak to this very point.

There are MAJOR flaws with this system and it takes someone who is truly in denial to not even consider that, but rather blame it on the people who disagree with it.

And beyond that people take this system too seriously, honestly you don't "NEED" to know what your hair type is.



Around apl but going to wl
coily, wavy, tightly curly, kinky, nappy hair
Natural products are the bomb.

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