Hair Products and Their Bases - Page 3

LhoreSpencer · 10-07-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

Duchess of Curls (amourai) is also EW Simple Aloe Jelly as well if I recall correctly.

I purchased this in a co-op with Goobernut back in May. It's the EXACT same thing, only difference is the scent added.
Shipping can be tough on the pockets unless you purchase a lot of items. I remember when I was reading thru that sight and the thread for the co-op, so many ladies pointed out different bases that are sold to the public. They even offer skin care items as well.
Funny how I didn't remember this until you posted this.

coilynapp · 10-07-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Plus there is a difference between "private label agreements" and companies selling the same product manufactured in the same facility under different brands with different price points. Private label agreements are when a formulator stikes a deal with someone what a manufacturing facility to mass product a product for them. The formulator retains EXCLUSIVE rights to the formula, and the owner of the facility gets a flat manufacturing payment.

+1. Plus, a dry blend containing fatty alcohols and an emulsifier isn't a base per se. You have to add the water, oils, herbs, preservative, etc yourself making it a unique formula. Bulk liquid, cream and butter bases are pre-fabricated formulas that already contain all the water, oils, herbs, preservative, etc needed. The customer only needs to add scent to finish. Naturmulse is an emulsifier like BTMS and a million others out there which every emulsion needs, commercial or handmade. Without an emulsifier the product will separate.

using a blend of emulsifiers is not the same as a base. Otherwise, we can say that everyone who uses BTMS is using a base and that's not true at all. A base is an emulsion (in the case of conditioner or lotion) that is created in bulk and all you need to do is add fragrance and preservative (and sometimes just fragrance)

EllyEllyOxenFree · 10-07-2010, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LhoreSpencer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

Duchess of Curls (amourai) is also EW Simple Aloe Jelly as well if I recall correctly.

I purchased this in a co-op with Goobernut back in May. It's the EXACT same thing, only difference is the scent added.
Shipping can be tough on the pockets unless you purchase a lot of items. I remember when I was reading thru that sight and the thread for the co-op, so many ladies pointed out different bases that are sold to the public. They even offer skin care items as well.
Funny how I didn't remember this until you posted this.

Wait Lhore so is $11 expensive? I'm confused now.

CoilsKinksCurls · 10-07-2010, 02:20 PM

It might be a bse because remember in the other thread we were saying she could be infusing the herbs in oil and then use the oils in the base causing it to separate because there aren't enough emulsifiers to compensate for the new oils added.

The she said she was going to start adding xanthun gum to help keep the oils from separating and you can mix the herb infused oils and xanthun gum together and then whip it into the butters quite easy.

What do you think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

yeah I can't find a base that similiar enough to her butters to say she uses a base...plus I think if they were bases, we wouldn't have the seperation issues and such. But since she adds that rice milk, I think that's what causes the rotten smell...she's not preserving them well enough to account for the milk.

Naturalista · 10-07-2010, 02:23 PM

Perhaps I'm thinking too diabolically, but if you were to mix a shealoe bulk base with a creme lotion base, add your milk/oils whatever then voila. Plus editing the ingredients a tad to cover your tracks and no one has to be the wiser. It's all a tad close.. possibly..

There is a natural supply bulk store in TX where she resides that has a whipped shealoe and some creme lotion base (concentrate one in particular) that if mixed together would create that consistency.

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...ductid=ANCLBC1 PLUS

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...uctid=SHEALOEB

just being diabolical...LOL!!

NCC: I saw that base as well, do you think that somehow she could be mixing bases, off setting the pH with the rice milk/other additives and adding additional preservative--could explain the colors, the inconsistencies, etc. I saw that you're a chemist and it was my college major, but that was as deep as I went into it. LOL!!

Naturalista · 10-07-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoilsKinksCurls

It might be a bse because remember in the other thread we were saying she could be infusing the herbs in oil and then use the oils in the base causing it to separate because there aren't enough emulsifiers to compensate for the new oils added.

The she said she was going to start adding xanthun gum to help keep the oils from separating and you can mix the herb infused oils and xanthun gum together and then whip it into the butters quite easy.

What do you think?

"Herbal Oil Complex" she states could be:

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...roductid=IREOB

coilynapp · 10-07-2010, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ellepixie

You're welcome!!! Shout out to coilynapp - not sure where she is but we were discussing this yesterday.

Elle,

I'm here, just been reading.

I see we've starting some fire up in here...

coilynapp · 10-07-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

This might not be the base she uses for the butters...but I think its DAYUM close....

she doesn't use emulsifying wax, she uses Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate (which is naturemulse, ecomulse just to name a couple of names). I don't think her butters are bases, but I could be wrong

afrosheenqueen · 10-07-2010, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoilsKinksCurls

It might be a bse because remember in the other thread we were saying she could be infusing the herbs in oil and then use the oils in the base causing it to separate because there aren't enough emulsifiers to compensate for the new oils added.

What do you think?

I think your on to something. Things aren't right. She might not NEED to add extra things to those conditioner bases but I think she is to make it her own.

finehair · 10-07-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

Perhaps I'm thinking too diabolically, but if you were to mix a shealoe bulk base with a creme lotion base, add your milk/oils whatever then voila. Plus editing the ingredients a tad to cover your tracks and no one has to be the wiser. It's all a tad close.. possibly..

There is a natural supply bulk store in TX where she resides that has a whipped shealoe and some creme lotion base (concentrate one in particular) that if mixed together would create that consistency.

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...ductid=ANCLBC1 PLUS

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...uctid=SHEALOEB

just being diabolical...LOL!!

NCC: I saw that base as well, do you think that somehow she could be mixing bases, off setting the pH with the rice milk/other additives and adding additional preservative--could explain the colors, the inconsistencies, etc. I saw that you're a chemist and it was my college major, but that was as deep as I went into it. LOL!!

LOL... goodness.
Did you read some of the comments under the base reviews:

I've had a great time using the creme, mixing in my "special" ingredients and WOW....I'm thrilled with the results. I might start a business of my own.

This a wonderful base to body and hair butters.

EllyEllyOxenFree · 10-07-2010, 02:35 PM

I don't think they are bases because they aren't consistent...if she only had to add a few things to it I would hope that she'd measure it correctly...but, I will say that I'm not sure she is putting in all the work she claims to in order to make it from scratch.

Naturalista · 10-07-2010, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

This might not be the base she uses for the butters...but I think its DAYUM close....

she doesn't use emulsifying wax, she uses Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate (which is naturemulse, ecomulse just to name a couple of names). I don't think her butters are bases, but I could be wrong

According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!

Nappy_curly_crown · 10-07-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

Perhaps I'm thinking too diabolically, but if you were to mix a shealoe bulk base with a creme lotion base, add your milk/oils whatever then voila. Plus editing the ingredients a tad to cover your tracks and no one has to be the wiser. It's all a tad close.. possibly..

There is a natural supply bulk store in TX where she resides that has a whipped shealoe and some creme lotion base (concentrate one in particular) that if mixed together would create that consistency.

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...ductid=ANCLBC1 PLUS

http://www.texasnaturalsupply.com/pr...uctid=SHEALOEB

just being diabolical...LOL!!

NCC: I saw that base as well, do you think that somehow she could be mixing bases, off setting the pH with the rice milk/other additives and adding additional preservative--could explain the colors, the inconsistencies, etc. I saw that you're a chemist and it was my college major, but that was as deep as I went into it. LOL!!

I was thinking that she's mixing bases (not very well) and then adding inflused oils/rice milk which might account for the seperation and/or rotten smell from the spoiled milk. If you look at her oils that she sells, I think those are the "infused oils" that she's adding to her butters, espically that growth exlixer. It's got pretty much every herb that she says is in her butters in it.

I think the butters are partly a base....I just need to sit down a bit and reverse engineer her stuff (which I usually don't like to do for ethical reasons but oh well). Give me a day or two and I can tell u exactly what bases she's using and what additional ingredients she's adding. We already know most of the herbal extracts are added. I need to figure out which oils are added later and BOOM. I'm about 50% sure she's using a generic shea butter body butter base and working from there is adding stuff.

coilynapp · 10-07-2010, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

This might not be the base she uses for the butters...but I think its DAYUM close....

she doesn't use emulsifying wax, she uses Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate (which is naturemulse, ecomulse just to name a couple of names). I don't think her butters are bases, but I could be wrong

According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!

If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)

hippychic · 10-07-2010, 03:09 PM

i don't like the feel of ewax in my hair. too much drag.
if afroveda is using bases and doing all of this doctoring, it would be so much easier to formulate from scratch and perfect her recipe/batches.

Nappy_curly_crown · 10-07-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

she doesn't use emulsifying wax, she uses Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate (which is naturemulse, ecomulse just to name a couple of names). I don't think her butters are bases, but I could be wrong

According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!

If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)

BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.

sassywillow · 10-07-2010, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!

If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)

BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.

Sounds like Mala needs a chemist on staff.

hippychic · 10-07-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!

If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)

BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.

and let's not talk about the chocolate scented shea butter... (scratches head)

Naturalista · 10-07-2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown

Quote:

Originally Posted by coilynapp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naturalista

According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!

If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)

BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.

Damn!! Beat me to the punch NCC!! ^5!!

E-wax doesn't have to be all bad. I don't deal in wax, but is it all all or nothing phenomena? How much you need to emulsify is product dependent, and if she's using something additional to emulsify to make the consistency more uniform can you you really predict what you'll get, especially if heat is added to the mix?

kathymack · 10-07-2010, 03:18 PM

Here's a similar thread from last winter that "exposes" a lot of products. You've already listed some of them: Different company--same EXACT ingredients in product- I didn't notice UGH!