Hair Products and Their Bases

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According to HER, she doesn't use it-- but we could all be wrong. Also, once she disturbs the base by changing the consistency with oils and rice milk, SOMETHING has to bring it all back together. So perhaps she's double dipping and that's where the second emulsifier comes in?? Oils falling out of solution and such, it could be why.

I'm being devious... LOL!!
Originally Posted by Naturalista
If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)
Originally Posted by coilynapp
BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
Maybe, BUT not all her butters are doing this. It's not shea amla ALL the time, nor is it totally twisted ALL the time. It's here and there. If this was the case, NONE of her butters would EVER be emulsified.
I agree with Naturalista...e-wax, if used correctly, doesn't have to be all icky feeling. I think it depends on the product.

And hippychic...don't even get me started on the chocolate smell!!! I am sitting here with my Cocolatte now...and was reading the ingredients like wait...how the hell does this smell like chocolate when she doesn't list any kind of fragrance oil and shea butter DOES NOT smell like chocolate...
BC'ed: 26 Dec 09
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Grand Duchess Fierce Freckles, Mistress of the Mighty Snap and Doyenne of the Potent Products Pavane in the Order of the Curly Crusaders
I agree with Naturalista...e-wax, if used correctly, doesn't have to be all icky feeling. I think it depends on the product.

And hippychic...don't even get me started on the chocolate smell!!! I am sitting here with my Cocolatte now...and was reading the ingredients like wait...how the hell does this smell like chocolate when she doesn't list any kind of fragrance oil and shea butter DOES NOT smell like chocolate...
Originally Posted by ellepixie
I think she said it was from the raw coco butter. And yes coco butter can have a FAINT scent like coco....but she's lying if she says she's not adding fragrance to that product.
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An AfroVeda Consulting report...not much, but very interesting and may explain all her tomfoolery.
BC'ed: 26 Dec 09
YouTube

Grand Duchess Fierce Freckles, Mistress of the Mighty Snap and Doyenne of the Potent Products Pavane in the Order of the Curly Crusaders
I agree with Naturalista...e-wax, if used correctly, doesn't have to be all icky feeling. I think it depends on the product.

And hippychic...don't even get me started on the chocolate smell!!! I am sitting here with my Cocolatte now...and was reading the ingredients like wait...how the hell does this smell like chocolate when she doesn't list any kind of fragrance oil and shea butter DOES NOT smell like chocolate...
Originally Posted by ellepixie
I think she said it was from the raw coco butter. And yes coco butter can have a FAINT scent like coco....but she's lying if she says she's not adding fragrance to that product.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
I'd take that explanation, except that cocoa butter is not listed on my jar and it says, "The natural aroma of raw shea butter provides the perfect cocoa scent!!"
BC'ed: 26 Dec 09
YouTube

Grand Duchess Fierce Freckles, Mistress of the Mighty Snap and Doyenne of the Potent Products Pavane in the Order of the Curly Crusaders
If she is using a base, she would not be adding another emulsifier. That would mean heating the base and with a preservative already in it, that will make the preservative not effective anymore.

IA with Elle. If it was a base, her butters would be at least consistent. When using bases, people don't add an excess of 5% of stuff into it (I think I'm remembering this correctly, don't remember where I read this). You can't do that or you will make everything unstable. In order to add any solids, you would have to heat the base to the melting point of the new solid (e.g., emulsifier) usually 65 C or more, at which point the preservative and all other heat sensitive ingredients in the base, are not effective anymore

Also, emulsifying wax feels very different from something like ecomulse. E-wax is very waxy-feeling and you would not be getting that smooth, wet like feel with it, as you do with ecomulse. So, no, I don't think she uses e-wax at all. I've used both emulsifiers and I would not be putting e-wax in my hair because it's too waxy for me (every product I've tried that has used e-wax as an emulsifier left my hair feeling waxy and coated--beautiful curls leave in, sheamoisture curl and style milk for example)
Originally Posted by coilynapp
BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
Damn!! Beat me to the punch NCC!! ^5!!

E-wax doesn't have to be all bad. I don't deal in wax, but is it all all or nothing phenomena? How much you need to emulsify is product dependent, and if she's using something additional to emulsify to make the consistency more uniform can you you really predict what you'll get, especially if heat is added to the mix?
Originally Posted by Naturalista
I'm not denying whatever she is doing is shady (whatever it is we don't know). I'm just saying e-wax feels very different from ecomulse. Even if you have a little (and all you need is a little to emulsify depending on your formula. E-wax would not give the same product feel as ecomulse. I've used both, so I know. And if you mix them both you will not get the same feel as either and it still won't be as good as ecomulse

Yes, people started complaining when she added the ricemilk. Things like that milk powders, even aloe are tricky to preserve, so you have to know what you are doing. If at first her preservative system was working right and then she added the milk and didn't see if her system is working with the new formula, then that's what you get spoiled milk smell
I agree with Naturalista...e-wax, if used correctly, doesn't have to be all icky feeling. I think it depends on the product.

And hippychic...don't even get me started on the chocolate smell!!! I am sitting here with my Cocolatte now...and was reading the ingredients like wait...how the hell does this smell like chocolate when she doesn't list any kind of fragrance oil and shea butter DOES NOT smell like chocolate...
Originally Posted by ellepixie
I think she said it was from the raw coco butter. And yes coco butter can have a FAINT scent like coco....but she's lying if she says she's not adding fragrance to that product.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
funny though there is NO cocobutter in the cocolatte... I was very confused about this. No one will not buy your product because it has fragrance, just say what's in it
I agree with Naturalista...e-wax, if used correctly, doesn't have to be all icky feeling. I think it depends on the product.

And hippychic...don't even get me started on the chocolate smell!!! I am sitting here with my Cocolatte now...and was reading the ingredients like wait...how the hell does this smell like chocolate when she doesn't list any kind of fragrance oil and shea butter DOES NOT smell like chocolate...
Originally Posted by ellepixie
e-wax is draggy. Period. It makes a good lotion, but for some people, it feels too waxy on hair. Ecomulse (or other emulsifiers) are better for hair. Ecomulse is just superior to e-wax period. If sheamoisture would substitute ecomulse for e-wax you will be able to tell the difference very easily. It's just better, feels better and does more in terms of moisturizing than e-wax can.

It does depend on the product, you can compare a product that has e-wax solely as the emulsifier and another product that has no e-wax, you will know which one feels better. In hair products, e-wax is used in combination with other hair conditioning emulsifiers for a better feel (also cuts costs because e-wax is usually cheaper than more superior emulsifiers)

BINGO. Maybe that's why her butters are molding and/or smelling funny and people are complaining about the consistency issue. You've got to admit, when she first started out, i don't recall ANYONE complaining about stuff getting moldy fast or about them seperating. Once she started added more stuff to her butters and changing the ingredients,...that's when the complaints started.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
Damn!! Beat me to the punch NCC!! ^5!!

E-wax doesn't have to be all bad. I don't deal in wax, but is it all all or nothing phenomena? How much you need to emulsify is product dependent, and if she's using something additional to emulsify to make the consistency more uniform can you you really predict what you'll get, especially if heat is added to the mix?
Originally Posted by Naturalista
I'm not denying whatever she is doing is shady (whatever it is we don't know). I'm just saying e-wax feels very different from ecomulse. Even if you have a little (and all you need is a little to emulsify depending on your formula. E-wax would not give the same product feel as ecomulse. I've used both, so I know. And if you mix them both you will not get the same feel as either and it still won't be as good as ecomulse

Yes, people started complaining when she added the ricemilk. Things like that milk powders, even aloe are tricky to preserve, so you have to know what you are doing. If at first her preservative system was working right and then she added the milk and didn't see if her system is working with the new formula, then that's what you get spoiled milk smell
Originally Posted by coilynapp
A bunch of her conditioners are mainly organic aloe, like the first word on the ingredients. So what are you guys saying? That her products aren't worth buying because they spoil easily or either they don't work properly?
Medium/thick/thin strands
medium fine front thick back
deep condish lutrasilk herbal
moisturize with softn nfree milk protein and olive oil[
3c/4a half and half ♥
Love my curls, kinks, coils, napps, corkscrews.
styler is ORS smooth n hold pudding♥
Transitioning ended--> forced into relaxer
If all goes well, will transition in 2012
An AfroVeda Consulting report...not much, but very interesting and may explain all her tomfoolery.
Originally Posted by ellepixie

DAYUM...its amazing what you can find on the internet.

This line made me laugh out loud "Each Ayurveda recipe is intricately delicate and requires much attention to detail, which simply cannot be guaranteed if a third party were to assume charge"

Actually, I think if she went and got everything outsourced to a third party manufucturer, things might be better, but its hard to do that when 75% of your products are bases (Assuming the butters are not)
Wanna talk products? Come Join us here!
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_____________________________
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_____________________________
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I agree with Naturalista...e-wax, if used correctly, doesn't have to be all icky feeling. I think it depends on the product.

And hippychic...don't even get me started on the chocolate smell!!! I am sitting here with my Cocolatte now...and was reading the ingredients like wait...how the hell does this smell like chocolate when she doesn't list any kind of fragrance oil and shea butter DOES NOT smell like chocolate...
Originally Posted by ellepixie
I think she said it was from the raw coco butter. And yes coco butter can have a FAINT scent like coco....but she's lying if she says she's not adding fragrance to that product.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
funny though there is NO cocobutter in the cocolatte... I was very confused about this. No one will not buy your product because it has fragrance, just say what's in it
Originally Posted by coilynapp

I could have sworn the original had coco butter....just like the original shea amla had AMLA in it.
Wanna talk products? Come Join us here!
http://www.facebook.com/PlatinumPJ

Extremely thick, kinky curls/coils that have a mind of thier own!!!!
_____________________________
I like my men and my hair....KINKY!!!!
_____________________________
Wanna save $10 off your next purchase at vitacost.com? Use my referal code (click the link)!



Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter
An AfroVeda Consulting report...not much, but very interesting and may explain all her tomfoolery.
Originally Posted by ellepixie

DAYUM...its amazing what you can find on the internet.

This line made me laugh out loud "Each Ayurveda recipe is intricately delicate and requires much attention to detail, which simply cannot be guaranteed if a third party were to assume charge"

Actually, I think if she went and got everything outsourced to a third party manufucturer, things might be better, but its hard to do that when 75% of your products are bases (Assuming the butters are not)
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
I KNOW!!!!--we should NOT be able to find this at all

Things would be better if she outsourced, but I can understand her position of not wanting to. She can find a good company to do this. There are two places in Texas that I know of that she can use. There are agreements and such that can be filled to put her mind at ease. That might be better than all this mess...

ETA: yea, if she is using bases, she can't actually outsource (unless she is using the bases that the contract manufacturer has to offer). If she wants them to create her products , she will need a formula and it doesn't look like she has any for any of her products (maybe the butters)

Last edited by coilynapp; 10-07-2010 at 03:59 PM.

Plus there is a difference between "private label agreements" and companies selling the same product manufactured in the same facility under different brands with different price points. Private label agreements are when a formulator stikes a deal with someone what a manufacturing facility to mass product a product for them. The formulator retains EXCLUSIVE rights to the formula, and the owner of the facility gets a flat manufacturing payment.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
+1. Plus, a dry blend containing fatty alcohols and an emulsifier isn't a base per se. You have to add the water, oils, herbs, preservative, etc yourself making it a unique formula. Bulk liquid, cream and butter bases are pre-fabricated formulas that already contain all the water, oils, herbs, preservative, etc needed. The customer only needs to add scent to finish. Naturmulse is an emulsifier like BTMS and a million others out there which every emulsion needs, commercial or handmade. Without an emulsifier the product will separate.
Originally Posted by artemis
using a blend of emulsifiers is not the same as a base. Otherwise, we can say that everyone who uses BTMS is using a base and that's not true at all. A base is an emulsion (in the case of conditioner or lotion) that is created in bulk and all you need to do is add fragrance and preservative (and sometimes just fragrance)
Originally Posted by coilynapp
Right, that's what I was pointing out...that there's a difference between a liquid pre-fab base and an emulsifier. I used Naturmulse and BTMS as examples of an emulsifier as opposed to a pre-fab base. Someone referred to naturmulse as a base.

I think she said it was from the raw coco butter. And yes coco butter can have a FAINT scent like coco....but she's lying if she says she's not adding fragrance to that product.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
funny though there is NO cocobutter in the cocolatte... I was very confused about this. No one will not buy your product because it has fragrance, just say what's in it
Originally Posted by coilynapp

I could have sworn the original had coco butter....just like the original shea amla had AMLA in it.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
GOSH for real? So she kept calling them names that were not descriptive when she changed it? DAYUM it's really worse than I though

+1. Plus, a dry blend containing fatty alcohols and an emulsifier isn't a base per se. You have to add the water, oils, herbs, preservative, etc yourself making it a unique formula. Bulk liquid, cream and butter bases are pre-fabricated formulas that already contain all the water, oils, herbs, preservative, etc needed. The customer only needs to add scent to finish. Naturmulse is an emulsifier like BTMS and a million others out there which every emulsion needs, commercial or handmade. Without an emulsifier the product will separate.
Originally Posted by artemis
using a blend of emulsifiers is not the same as a base. Otherwise, we can say that everyone who uses BTMS is using a base and that's not true at all. A base is an emulsion (in the case of conditioner or lotion) that is created in bulk and all you need to do is add fragrance and preservative (and sometimes just fragrance)
Originally Posted by coilynapp
Right, that's what I was pointing out...that there's a difference between a liquid pre-fab base and an emulsifier. I used Naturmulse and BTMS as examples of an emulsifier as opposed to a pre-fab base. Someone referred to naturmulse as a base.
Originally Posted by artemis
yes, I saw that other post, too lazy to find it and quote it. I was agreeing with you

Damn!! Beat me to the punch NCC!! ^5!!

E-wax doesn't have to be all bad. I don't deal in wax, but is it all all or nothing phenomena? How much you need to emulsify is product dependent, and if she's using something additional to emulsify to make the consistency more uniform can you you really predict what you'll get, especially if heat is added to the mix?
Originally Posted by Naturalista
I'm not denying whatever she is doing is shady (whatever it is we don't know). I'm just saying e-wax feels very different from ecomulse. Even if you have a little (and all you need is a little to emulsify depending on your formula. E-wax would not give the same product feel as ecomulse. I've used both, so I know. And if you mix them both you will not get the same feel as either and it still won't be as good as ecomulse

Yes, people started complaining when she added the ricemilk. Things like that milk powders, even aloe are tricky to preserve, so you have to know what you are doing. If at first her preservative system was working right and then she added the milk and didn't see if her system is working with the new formula, then that's what you get spoiled milk smell
Originally Posted by coilynapp
A bunch of her conditioners are mainly organic aloe, like the first word on the ingredients. So what are you guys saying? That her products aren't worth buying because they spoil easily or either they don't work properly?
Originally Posted by princessai16
no, that's not what I'm saying. Just that people who use these ingredients should make sure their preservative is working as well as it should. A good product will not go bad on you if it is preserved adequately and you are not adding anything to it (e.g., water, dirty fingers). A good product should last a while even with daily customer use and abuse. And a good preservative system would and should kill off bacteria that are introduced by the customer through daily use (fingers, leaving it open while using it, etc)

Last edited by coilynapp; 10-07-2010 at 04:05 PM.
An AfroVeda Consulting report...not much, but very interesting and may explain all her tomfoolery.
Originally Posted by ellepixie

DAYUM...its amazing what you can find on the internet.

This line made me laugh out loud "Each Ayurveda recipe is intricately delicate and requires much attention to detail, which simply cannot be guaranteed if a third party were to assume charge"

Actually, I think if she went and got everything outsourced to a third party manufucturer, things might be better, but its hard to do that when 75% of your products are bases (Assuming the butters are not)
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
I KNOW!!!!--we should NOT be able to find this at all

Things would be better if she outsourced, but I can understand her position of not wanting to. She can find a good company to do this. There are two places in Texas that I know of that she can use. There are agreements and such that can be filled to put her mind at ease. That might be better than all this mess...

ETA: yea, if she is using bases, she can't actually outsource (unless she is using the bases that the contract manufacturer has to offer). If she wants them to create her products , she will need a formula and it doesn't look like she has any for any of her products (maybe the butters)
Originally Posted by coilynapp
aw shizzles!!! See what happens when folks put their collective powers together.

Lawd...
Type: 3c with some 4a highlighted
Low porosity thick/coarse texture. nml elasticity
Routine: No rules, just happy hair

Cleanse: CJDF, Prell, LUSH Curly Wurly, Bobeam
LI/RO:BBB, CJ, SheaM, HEHIS, Garnier, KBN Shealoe, CD Chocolat, Oyin HH
Styling: CJ, CR, UFD, Zuresh, Ecostyler,MJ
PT/DT: BBB, CJ, Lather, MJSSB

HUGE PJJJJJJJJ!!!!

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[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']These obstacles are all interconnected and interrelated. Employees cannot be hired so long as production is performed in the family’s kitchen. No specialty equipment can be incorporated into the kitchen without causing an inconvenience to the remaining family members or without adding setup/teardown hours to the production process. [/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Moreover, Mala does not have the time to reorganize her home or to purchase specialty equipment while working two full time jobs. Most entrepreneurs hold two jobs whilst proving the merit of their new product/company and simultaneously meet the demands of both roles. Eventually, those entrepreneurs resign their post at the first job to engage themselves completely on the task of the new product/company. But Mala has arrived at a point where the company has grown beyond the ability to operate successfully on a few hours between lunch break and before bedtime.[/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']These obstacles are all interconnected and interrelated. Employees cannot be hired so long as production is performed in the family’s kitchen. No specialty equipment can be incorporated into the kitchen without causing an inconvenience to the remaining family members or without adding setup/teardown hours to the production process. [/FONT]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Moreover, Mala does not have the time to reorganize her home or to purchase specialty equipment while working two full time jobs. Most entrepreneurs hold two jobs whilst proving the merit of their new product/company and simultaneously meet the demands of both roles. Eventually, those entrepreneurs resign their post at the first job to engage themselves completely on the task of the new product/company. But Mala has arrived at a point where the company has grown beyond the ability to operate successfully on a few hours between lunch break and before bedtime.[/FONT]
Originally Posted by shawnyblazes
And she should have planned for this. LOTS of women start business and work full time and know that if successful, there will come a point at which they will have to make a decision. Most people just quit their FT job.

It all comes down to better planning. Her product has been inconsistent since she began to grow and then she added more lines unnecessarily (that didn't sell). Soooo, she made her bed and now she must lie in it

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