4b define curls

I just wanted to say welcome to Tenderloveandcurls! We're glad to have you!
Gretchen
NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
3A

You are beautiful!
Omg! My Hair Looks Just Like Yours.....Im So Happy That I Found Someone With Hair Like Mine On Here Because For A Minute I Felt Like I Didnt Belong On This Site....I Jst Had My Big Chop 2 Days Ago And Ive Been Worried That I Was Gonna Look Like A Fool With My TWA....I Do Like Playin With The Springs In My Hair Though...They Feel Awesome...Lol. Any Tips On How To Style This?
Originally Posted by Preylyu
Oh really? Awesome! Your my first match then! What you can do with a TWA is limited because of the lack of hair, but I do twist outs. When I where my 'fro out, I usually wear a headband and it comes out pretty cute You can also pretty it up with cute flowers and bows.
Originally Posted by KinkyQuirky
That's What Everyone's Been Saying....I Think Twists Sound Good Bt I Have Zero Idea How To Do Them....B4 I Went Natural, I Didnt Even Know How To Put My Hair In A Ponytail So Part Of This Process Is Gettn To Kno My Hair And Takin Care Of It Bt Im Lost! Lol
4b: Has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern. Instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"; has a cotton-like feel

-NC.com Type 4 Hair Summary Page-

I'm just venting here. This whole hair typing thing is so exasperating to me and exactly the reason why I gave up on it altogether. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies with it.
I really wish that Andre Walker hadn't even attempted to define tightly coiled/curled, highly textured, kinky, nappy (whatever you want to call it) hair.

Now, I was told by someone on here (even though I didn't ask) that I was definitely 4b. The person who told me this, I'm sure, visited my Fotki, took a look at my texture and length shots; saw product-free wet hair with no visible curl pattern and knocked me back to my "place" in the curl hierarchy (no flames, please, this is just how I feel about hair typing. IMHO it is the new terminology for "good hair/bad hair").

My hair does not have zig zags or sharp angles in it nor does it feel like cotton. I absolutely see s-curls and coils when it's wet but they are very, very small (coffee stirrer size) and very tightly coiled. My son has no s-curls but more very tight O-shaped coils. No zigging and zagging going on in his hair either. Yet I was classed as 4b and I'm sure my son (with even tighter coils than mine) would be placed in the same category.

Now if I allow my hair to air dry after shampooing and do not add any product to it, it will look like this...


But if a add a curl defining product to it (like KCCC) while it is soaking wet, I get very tiny ringlets, s-curls and O-shaped coils. It shrivels up once it dries, but the ringlets, s-curls, and O-shaped coils are still there locked and frozen into place and dare I say, "clumped and defined". But umm...how can that be when 4b hair doesn't have anything except Z-shaped patterns according to Mr. Walker? So does that make me 4a?

But then there is the issue that I can only get clumped and defined curls/coils with product applied to soaking wet hair. So since my definition and clumping is "product induced" does that mean I'm 4b? You see how confusing it is?

I've seen people who claim 4a and even 3c (on YouTube mainly) who if they don't put products on their hair and let it air dry it will look similar to the above pic so are they suddenly 4b too because their curls are defined with product and frizzy and undefined without it? And the confusion goes on and on for me...

So then I circle back to a recurring question (for me anyway), what the heck is 4b hair? What does it look like? I don't know, I'm even more confused now than I was when the hair typing system first came on my radar. And I am so sure that many, many others (newbies and veterans alike) are just as confused.

Then there is the divisiveness and a hint of "smugness" (for lack of a better term) from some (not all) Type 4 or Type 3c curlies regarding the whole 4a/4b subtype thing...

Case in point, there was a thread on here awhile back where the OP said that she felt isolated from 4a and up curlies and asked if other so-called 4bers felt the same way. There were a few who replied that had decided they were 4b after all but confessed that they at first initially thought their hair was 4a or even 3c before they decided to claim 4b for their hair. Mainly the confusion over the hair typing system is why they allegedly "incorrectly" categorized their hair type.

Well I was saddened to see some people responded to these 4b confessors and stated that they didn't see how ANYBODY with 4b hair can mistake it for 4a or especially not 3c and several "LOLs" were added for emphasis of what a "ridiculous" notion this was to them. And some other posters agreed and added their own "LOLs" or smilies of a laughing nature to their post.

This is why I feel strongly that this is just so divisive no matter how you slice it on top of being confusing for so-called Type 4 hair. Some of those with so-called 4a and up hair seem to feel it's laughable that anyone in the 4b category could think they have anything in common with THEIR hair type. Like I said, to me it's the old "good hair/bad hair" syndrome just with a different name and it hinders rather than helps women who decide to go relaxer-free (IMO).

END OF VENT; going back to my hidey hole...
Originally Posted by belwillcoily
I totally agree. I don't know what type of hair I have, alls (yes I said alls -- I'm from NY) I know is that I have different textures growing all over and I like all of them. I think it's silly to claim one over the other and I also fully agree that there seems to be a covert class system when it comes to hair and hair typing --- again, it's one other thing to divide. I think all hair is beautiful - and I just hope that we can refrain from Hair Segregation! "We shall over come"...
1st BC - rocked a TWA
2nd BC - rocked a Caesar
"I've made up my mind to remain steadfast in the realm of coils, curlicues, kinks, and waves...says this this WestIndianCoily

Oh, and I don't believe in Curl Cream anything...


KinkyQuirky, love your beautiful teeny, tiny coils! Your hair kind of reminds me of my son's. I know what you mean about the halo of frizz hiding the curly "definition" . My "defined and clumped" coils are so tiny you would have to get all up in the hair to see it. I'm able to get more visible "clumped and defined" tresses when I mold the hair with twists and do a twist out.


And +1 to the bolded. I've pretty much given up on that pipe dream though. The 4b section has "spurts" of high activity if someone makes a post that gets everyone talking and commenting for awhile till the thread dies. Then 4b pretty much fades but doesn't go completely away until the next lively topic. I guess I just have to be content with that for now. I know for myself, a lot of times I'll post a question in 4a and 4b because I'm more likely to get a response from 4a quicker. 4bers respond, they just take their own sweet time (LOL!)
Originally Posted by belwillcoily
Thank you! Ditto on the twist outs. With such thick hair, they look so full and nice! I have noticed that pattern here also and yeah it's pretty disappointing. I'd like to learn more about 4b hair from other naturals that have it, but that's kinda hard when this thread is as slow as it is. But, ah well.Can't have everything I want lol
Last relaxer: May 30, 2010
The Big Chop!: October 31, 2010
Type 4 (Densely packed coils)
Co-wash:Suave Naturals



You can watch the complete video at:

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edi...t=%2Fmy_videos

The following are the steps to follow:

1. Co-wash hair with the conditioner of your choice. I use Giovanni Deep Moisture conditioner.
2. Lightly apply a leave-in conditioner of your choice. I use Cantu Shea Butter leave in condidtioner.
3. Spray your hair with plain water or a Spritz of your liking. I use a vegatable glycerin spritz I make myself (8 oz. of water, 4 tbsp of veg glycerin, 10 drops of rosemary).
4. Strategically apply a good amount of gel; by this I mean rub the gel between your palms and spread it on from the back of your head making sure to get "under/inside" of your curls. Do the same in the other directions. I use Eco Styler Gel.
5. Spray more spritz. This helps to define the curls and also keeps you from damaging your hair in the next step.
6. Rub your hand is a circular motion in sections and the curls will begin to form. The key is the amount of pressure you put on the hand and how big or small of circle you make. Big circles: big curls...Small circles: small curls. You'll probably have to do it a couple of time before you get it exactly how you like it.
7. It literally take less than 10 minutes. You can it everyday or make it last a few days. If requested, I can do a video on how to make it last. ************COMING SOON: NATURALGIRLSROCK.COM**************
4b: Has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern. Instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"; has a cotton-like feel

-NC.com Type 4 Hair Summary Page-

I'm just venting here. This whole hair typing thing is so exasperating to me and exactly the reason why I gave up on it altogether. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies with it.
I really wish that Andre Walker hadn't even attempted to define tightly coiled/curled, highly textured, kinky, nappy (whatever you want to call it) hair.

Now, I was told by someone on here (even though I didn't ask) that I was definitely 4b. The person who told me this, I'm sure, visited my Fotki, took a look at my texture and length shots; saw product-free wet hair with no visible curl pattern and knocked me back to my "place" in the curl hierarchy (no flames, please, this is just how I feel about hair typing. IMHO it is the new terminology for "good hair/bad hair").

My hair does not have zig zags or sharp angles in it nor does it feel like cotton. I absolutely see s-curls and coils when it's wet but they are very, very small (coffee stirrer size) and very tightly coiled. My son has no s-curls but more very tight O-shaped coils. No zigging and zagging going on in his hair either. Yet I was classed as 4b and I'm sure my son (with even tighter coils than mine) would be placed in the same category.

Now if I allow my hair to air dry after shampooing and do not add any product to it, it will look like this...


But if a add a curl defining product to it (like KCCC) while it is soaking wet, I get very tiny ringlets, s-curls and O-shaped coils. It shrivels up once it dries, but the ringlets, s-curls, and O-shaped coils are still there locked and frozen into place and dare I say, "clumped and defined". But umm...how can that be when 4b hair doesn't have anything except Z-shaped patterns according to Mr. Walker? So does that make me 4a?

But then there is the issue that I can only get clumped and defined curls/coils with product applied to soaking wet hair. So since my definition and clumping is "product induced" does that mean I'm 4b? You see how confusing it is?

I've seen people who claim 4a and even 3c (on YouTube mainly) who if they don't put products on their hair and let it air dry it will look similar to the above pic so are they suddenly 4b too because their curls are defined with product and frizzy and undefined without it? And the confusion goes on and on for me...

So then I circle back to a recurring question (for me anyway), what the heck is 4b hair? What does it look like? I don't know, I'm even more confused now than I was when the hair typing system first came on my radar. And I am so sure that many, many others (newbies and veterans alike) are just as confused.

Then there is the divisiveness and a hint of "smugness" (for lack of a better term) from some (not all) Type 4 or Type 3c curlies regarding the whole 4a/4b subtype thing...

Case in point, there was a thread on here awhile back where the OP said that she felt isolated from 4a and up curlies and asked if other so-called 4bers felt the same way. There were a few who replied that had decided they were 4b after all but confessed that they at first initially thought their hair was 4a or even 3c before they decided to claim 4b for their hair. Mainly the confusion over the hair typing system is why they allegedly "incorrectly" categorized their hair type.

Well I was saddened to see some people responded to these 4b confessors and stated that they didn't see how ANYBODY with 4b hair can mistake it for 4a or especially not 3c and several "LOLs" were added for emphasis of what a "ridiculous" notion this was to them. And some other posters agreed and added their own "LOLs" or smilies of a laughing nature to their post.

This is why I feel strongly that this is just so divisive no matter how you slice it on top of being confusing for so-called Type 4 hair. Some of those with so-called 4a and up hair seem to feel it's laughable that anyone in the 4b category could think they have anything in common with THEIR hair type. Like I said, to me it's the old "good hair/bad hair" syndrome just with a different name and it hinders rather than helps women who decide to go relaxer-free (IMO).

END OF VENT; going back to my hidey hole...
Originally Posted by belwillcoily

GIRL! You hair is beautiful! I cant wait until my hair gets that length!
I use 100% aloe vera gel when i want great curl definition. most of my 4b hair is in the front, and most of my 4a hair is on the sides and in the backlk. The aloe vera gel works wonderfully! Make sure to use some with NO alcohol!
I use 100% aloe vera gel on my hair when i want great curl definition! Make sure to use some with NO ALCOHOL IN IT! but the aloe vera gel works wonderuflly!!!
I am so glad I read this! I definitely get a curl pattern when I use aloe vera gel, so I was a bit confused on my hair type. If I don't use any product I have a wonderful afro, but when I do the gel when my hair is wet I get the "o" curls. they are very tightly coiled and shrinkage is almost funny. Glad to know I am not alone.

The ONLY reason I really care about hair types is to determine what products work best for me. Obviously that doesn't matter much either, I just have to test everything out on my own. (not good for my bank account)
***taking notes***
I Halibel

Natural
, 4a/b


Wet Hair



Empress Halibel -|- Sacred Guardian of the Kinky Realms & Grand Wielder of the Coiled Light -|- in the Order of the Curly Crusaders
This is an illuminating thread. I'll have to try one or two of the products here and see if any fit my hair type(s). Count yourselves lucky if you don't have more than one.
I have densely-planted, fine-stranded, porous frizz&puff-prone hair w/ S-shapes that end in tiny spirals. It's like they change their minds at the last second "hmm, ok enough of that...Now lets go this way...tada!"

more of this



than this



I get kink definition and tiny bit of curl def. (on well-conditioned, finger-detangled hair...brushes & combs seem to complicate matters unless I re-condition after and rinse gingerly) with heavy gels and or conditioner.

Lately I've been experimenting with Eco Styler Olive and Lustrasilk deep conditioner.

At first I tried layering one after the other but find that mixing the two (with a bit of olive oil) in a container then doing 1 application cuts down on the manipulation & some frizz.

some good vids


YouTube - 09 HAIRstory - myWINTER WnGs

YouTube - 09 HAIRstory - fingerCOMBING

YouTube - WASH AND GO TUTORIAL FOR DEFINING NATURAL HAIR 4A USING ECO STYLER GEL(PART 1)

YouTube - NATURAL HAIR : WASH & GO USING TIGHTLY CURLY METHOD MODIFIED FOR 4A 4B

all said & done, even loaded & stretched with the goo, my kink-curl pattern gives a final result more like Sideshow Bob than the quasi 3c look that some 4as get. I like it but I'm saying this simply to highlight that the styling products, AFAIK, only enhance what's already there.

True realism consists in revealing the surprising things
which habit keeps covered and prevents us from seeing.
- Jean Cocteau


<---Fotki photo albums
Wtf is a Z strand? LMAO. Wow. Okay.

First off, I'm not even gonna lie; when I first started my natural hair journey and figured out about the hair typing system, I was sure that I had to be a 3c because apparently that's the hairtype for most biracial/multiracials. So imagine my surprise when my TWA started getting bigger and my curls started unraveling so that my head resembled more of a mushroom cloud as opposed to naturally defined curls. I had to accept (luckily that didn't take long) that for one, you don't just have to have one hair type on your head. For another, I had to get over the fact that as a multi-racial chick, my hair just wasn't going to reach epic Rachel True proportions. And finally, I had to just realize...get over it. Your hair is YOUR hair, you didn't go natural just because you thought you'd have flowy curls (at least I hope not), and what comes out of your scalp is yours...which makes it absolutely beautiful.

Oh. And that the hair typing system is complete crap.

It does help some naturals realize what's good for their hair and what isn't as long as they don't go nuts over it, i'll give it that. But when you have people with tightly coiled hair trying to pull off looser curl patterns and they're using the wrong stuff in their hair and it gets all damaged...then there's a problem.

I have to say that I have never seen a "z" shaped curl pattern though (not to say it doesn't exist) but shoot, I wish my head had some Zs! That sounds cool as a mofo. But the point is (and this is the truth), worry about keeping your hair as healthy as possible, because every hhead of long, healthy hair that I've seen looks much better than some damaged, coveted "3c" hair.

That is all
Originally Posted by itsKelCeeEee
same here.. I didn't inherit the stereotypical mixy hair either but my brother has it. I say stereotypical because in reality there are Afro-mixed bi-multi-racials with hair from types 4 to 1.like just no curls at at all... or w/blond type 4a 4b etc...basically all possible combos.
True realism consists in revealing the surprising things
which habit keeps covered and prevents us from seeing.
- Jean Cocteau


<---Fotki photo albums
MOISTURE! 4b does have a curl pattern , it does form Z shapes and it is definable without using tons of gel and product, however, the key to bringing out this curl pattern is getting proper moisture. This doesn't mean softness that's temporary from applying products on top if the hair. This means getting hair to a stable point of deep hydration.
If you don't believe me check out my YouTube channel especially the video My 4b Hair story to see where I came from and where I am now.

My channel is thelmarrie.
MOISTURE! 4b does have a curl pattern , it does form Z shapes and it is definable without using tons of gel and product, however, the key to bringing out this curl pattern is getting proper moisture. This doesn't mean softness that's temporary from applying products on top if the hair. This means getting hair to a stable point of deep hydration.
If you don't believe me check out my YouTube channel especially the video My 4b Hair story to see where I came from and where I am now.

My channel is thelmarrie.
Originally Posted by lmarrie
thanks!! I'm checking it out now...your hair is gorgeous! <3
True realism consists in revealing the surprising things
which habit keeps covered and prevents us from seeing.
- Jean Cocteau


<---Fotki photo albums
I have densely-planted, fine-stranded, porous frizz&puff-prone hair w/ S-shapes that end in tiny spirals. It's like they change their minds at the last second "hmm, ok enough of that...Now lets go this way...tada!"

more of this



than this



I get kink definition and tiny bit of curl def. (on well-conditioned, finger-detangled hair...brushes & combs seem to complicate matters unless I re-condition after and rinse gingerly) with heavy gels and or conditioner.

Lately I've been experimenting with Eco Styler Olive and Lustrasilk deep conditioner.

At first I tried layering one after the other but find that mixing the two (with a bit of olive oil) in a container then doing 1 application cuts down on the manipulation & some frizz.

some good vids


YouTube - 09 HAIRstory - myWINTER WnGs

YouTube - 09 HAIRstory - fingerCOMBING

YouTube - WASH AND GO TUTORIAL FOR DEFINING NATURAL HAIR 4A USING ECO STYLER GEL(PART 1)

YouTube - NATURAL HAIR : WASH & GO USING TIGHTLY CURLY METHOD MODIFIED FOR 4A 4B

all said & done, even loaded & stretched with the goo, my kink-curl pattern gives a final result more like Sideshow Bob than the quasi 3c look that some 4as get. I like it but I'm saying this simply to highlight that the styling products, AFAIK, only enhance what's already there.

Originally Posted by Presto!
I used to wear my hair just like Side Show Bob; it'd be my "look" when I'd do a braid out then sweat by doing something silly like jogging.

I started henna and indigo several months ago. But, I only just read regular shampoo is bad for my hair and began co-washing just this week. I've been natural for years but am a beginner with hair care.

Here is my hair an hour after co-wash, no towel dry/just wrung it out with my hands, still damp, no product. Maybe 4b; I dunno? I'm becoming less concerned with "curl class" and more interested in taking proper care of it. Aim to enhance whatever curl pattern(s) are lurking there. Learning tons here!

Last edited by rakakan; 03-11-2011 at 09:18 AM.
I have been trying to find hair posts that look like mine, because I can't determine which hair pattern I have:
-definitely, not fully 4a, but I have some random 4a
-majority 4b, but then, some 4c.

On top of all that, its densely packed and much shrinkage.
I need help getting to the right category for the right hair type. Please help =) Although, I don't mind the frizzes on a daily basis, I would like to know if there is a way I could lessen the frizz...or is the frizz more like my 4c hair?

But, KinkyQuirky, your hair pattern looks like mine, so I really appreciate that you posted your pick =)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Me_2.jpg (38.0 KB, 667 views)
File Type: jpg Me_3.jpg (39.7 KB, 521 views)
MOISTURE! 4b does have a curl pattern , it does form Z shapes and it is definable without using tons of gel and product, however, the key to bringing out this curl pattern is getting proper moisture. This doesn't mean softness that's temporary from applying products on top if the hair. This means getting hair to a stable point of deep hydration.
If you don't believe me check out my YouTube channel especially the video My 4b Hair story to see where I came from and where I am now.

My channel is thelmarrie.
Originally Posted by lmarrie

I agree
I have densely-planted, fine-stranded, porous frizz&puff-prone hair w/ S-shapes that end in tiny spirals. It's like they change their minds at the last second "hmm, ok enough of that...Now lets go this way...tada!"

more of this



than this



I get kink definition and tiny bit of curl def. (on well-conditioned, finger-detangled hair...brushes & combs seem to complicate matters unless I re-condition after and rinse gingerly) with heavy gels and or conditioner.

Lately I've been experimenting with Eco Styler Olive and Lustrasilk deep conditioner.

At first I tried layering one after the other but find that mixing the two (with a bit of olive oil) in a container then doing 1 application cuts down on the manipulation & some frizz.

some good vids


YouTube - 09 HAIRstory - myWINTER WnGs

YouTube - 09 HAIRstory - fingerCOMBING

YouTube - WASH AND GO TUTORIAL FOR DEFINING NATURAL HAIR 4A USING ECO STYLER GEL(PART 1)

YouTube - NATURAL HAIR : WASH & GO USING TIGHTLY CURLY METHOD MODIFIED FOR 4A 4B

all said & done, even loaded & stretched with the goo, my kink-curl pattern gives a final result more like Sideshow Bob than the quasi 3c look that some 4as get. I like it but I'm saying this simply to highlight that the styling products, AFAIK, only enhance what's already there.

Originally Posted by Presto!


I can't get over the crinkle chips description. Summed up my hair perfectly!
http://coilyas123.blogspot.com

Coily, Kinky & Nappy.
ITA!
U hit the nail on the head!
I am loving this thread!
http://coilyas123.blogspot.com

Coily, Kinky & Nappy.

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