The New & Improved Say It I Dare You - Page 443

sweetmx85 · 03-28-2012, 02:31 PM

he didnt say hi to my husband either he said when he came back out that HE said to the cashier how are you doing and then he told HIM have a nice day instead of the other way around :/ when the lady who checked out before he was chatting it up w her in their language.

naturaldoll · 03-28-2012, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keenylicious

I totally just jizzed in my pants after finding out that you can play street fighter on an iPad.

Someone NEEDS to get me one of these things NOW. Imma tell my mother I want it as a graduation gift.

Yo....ww-wha? Street fighter on the ipad? Hey Papi!!!!

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 02:39 PM

In the US white vs black is different from white vs black in other countries/regions. Esp for latinos/caribs. It's really not a color thing, it's a class/money thing. You can be dark and have a lot of money and be considered "white". Here in the US, it's either black or white, and no in-between and the powers the be/were did everything they could to maintain that.

Most latinos acknowledge anyone with the hispanic background (even Cameron Diaz who has been discussed in Latina magazine a time or two). All of those hispanic countries have European background (Spain and Portugal) so for them to deny that wouldn't make any sense, but there's also so much African influence that it wouldn't make sense to deny that either. But here, the European influence is different and is so forced here that it's easier to stick with those who have that common language and culture. Here in the US you are forced to determine "what are you?" but it's really not as big of a deal to choose elsewhere.

ETA: Also, there was a difference in slave treatment here versus elsewhere. So like a slave owner in Mexico or even Colombia, Panama, DR, etc would acknowledge his children he had with a slave and the slave herself. So that's why the one-drop rule couldn't really work or be an issue, but here it was commonly understand and used for everyone, even now.

Being black in the US means so much here because of the systematization of racism as a whole. It's just in every aspect of what being "American" is. So it doesn't surprise me if someone of color comes to this country and denies being "black". They are just trying to differentiate themselves from the inherent racism that we as black Americans face 24/7. The chances of them succeeding in ducking that are slim but I understand why they try anyway.

ETA again: Ultimately, the whole concept of race as Americans understand it should just go to hell in a handbasket. Bc basically all it does is cause Americans to believe some bs that to divide the majority (global, ie POC) is best, and maintain this false sense of minority among them here to keep everyone "in line" but clearly that line is blurred (and been that way for a while) and it's time to give up the ghost. Ok, I'm done, lol.

*Marah* · 03-28-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

In the US white vs black is different from white vs black in other countries/regions. Esp for latinos/caribs. It's really not a color thing, it's a class/money thing. You can be dark and have a lot of money and be considered "white".

Most latinos acknowledge anyone with the hispanic background (even Cameron Diaz who has been discussed in Latina magazine a time or two). All of those hispanic countries have European background (Spain and Portugal) so for them to deny that wouldn't make any sense, but there's also so much African influence that it wouldn't make sense to deny that either. But here, the European influence is different and is so forced here that it's easier to stick with those who have that common language and culture. Here in the US you are forced to determine "what are you?" but it's really not as big of a deal to choose elsewhere.

ETA: Also, there was a difference in slave treatment here versus elsewhere. So like a slave owner in Mexico or even Colombia, Panama, DR, etc would acknowledge his children he had with a slave and the slave herself. So that's why the one-drop rule couldn't really work or be an issue, but here it was commonly understand and used for everyone, even now.

How to you categorize Dominicans then ? Because in the DR it does seem like it's a color issue (as well as class). I've heard Dominicans from the DR praise lighter skin and wavy hair over darker skin and kinky hair... So are they a "special" case in your opinion ? What about Brazil ? My mom has relatives from there and it seems the same there... from both places have related those things. Given, they classify "race" differently..colorism however is an issue in those places.

I do think what you are saying is definitely accurate in many many cases. I've seen evidence of it. And black vs white isn't looked at exactly in those places like it is in the USA. Agreed. But I think color plays a lot more of a role into this issue abroad than a lot of people think and that's because the European influence is not just limited to the issues here in the USA. It's everywhere that white folks have been where POC have been oppressed in some way. Given, I think class plays a major part like it does everywhere though so I do get your very valid points.

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 03:16 PM

Categorize them? Like "race"?

Yes, I agree with what you are saying regarding colorism. European influence is everywhere, however, one must take into account which Europeans are being considered. French, English, Portuguese, or Spanish? The common goals overall were to takeover land and peoples, yet the methods varied and that's where the differences start. It is an issue there for the reasons you stated.

But I think the level of systemized oppression based on colorism is not on the same level; it's just different. I would be considered a medium dark black American here, but in DR or Brasil, I would just be considered "morena". All my adult life men from these regions have approached me, and their skin varied from very light to very dark (in fact I was engaged to a man who was half Dominican & half Brasilian lol). So I just don't see their form of colorism the way it is here.

ETA: in Latin America, it's not necessarily a good or bad thing re: light or dark skin. Rather is more of a personal preference.

cheveuxbouclés · 03-28-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

Interesting. I have never met another West Indian who did not have some serious pride. As in 'my island is better than all the rest' pride. So it's funny that he would think that Haitians are more brash with theirs.

As far as being the "blacker" West Indians, I am not sure about that either. There are plenty of mixed/light Haitians. As a matter of fact, class is basically based on your skin complexion there. The lighter and whiter, the better you are off. And as goes for Dominicans, like I stated before-- I think they pick on Haitians to make themselves feel better. They are often seen as being on the same levels as Haitians ( perhaps because they share the island.)by other Hispanics.

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheveuxbouclés

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

Interesting. I have never met another West Indian who did not have some serious pride. As in 'my island is better than all the rest' pride. So it's funny that he would think that Haitians are more brash with theirs.

As far as being the "blacker" West Indians, I am not sure about that either. There are plenty of mixed/light Haitians. As a matter of fact, class is basically based on your skin complexion there. The lighter and whiter, the better you are off. And as goes for Dominicans, like I stated before-- I think they pick on Haitians to make themselves feel better. They are often seen as being on the same levels as Haitians ( perhaps because they share the island.)by other Hispanics.

I'm sort of confused by your response to my post.
Re: the bold--Were you responding to me or the general direction of the convo?

cheveuxbouclés · 03-28-2012, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheveuxbouclés

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

Interesting. I have never met another West Indian who did not have some serious pride. As in 'my island is better than all the rest' pride. So it's funny that he would think that Haitians are more brash with theirs.

As far as being the "blacker" West Indians, I am not sure about that either. There are plenty of mixed/light Haitians. As a matter of fact, class is basically based on your skin complexion there. The lighter and whiter, the better you are off. And as goes for Dominicans, like I stated before-- I think they pick on Haitians to make themselves feel better. They are often seen as being on the same levels as Haitians ( perhaps because they share the island.)by other Hispanics.

I'm sort of confused by your response to my post.
Re: the bold--Were you responding to me or the general direction of the convo?

Oh sorry- I am too lazy to multi quote. General response.

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 03:44 PM

Ok, lol. Cool

*Marah* · 03-28-2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Categorize them? Like "race"?

Yes, I agree with what you are saying regarding colorism. European influence is everywhere, however, one must take into account which Europeans are being considered. French, English, Portuguese, or Spanish? The common goals overall were to takeover land and peoples, yet the methods varied and that's where the differences start. It is an issue there for the reasons you stated.

But I think the level of systemized oppression based on colorism is not on the same level; it's just different. I would be considered a medium dark black American here, but in DR or Brasil, I would just be considered "morena". All my adult life men from these regions have approached me, and their skin varied from very light to very dark (in fact I was engaged to a man who was half Dominican & half Brasilian lol). So I just don't see their form of colorism the way it is here.

ETA: in Latin America, it's not necessarily a good or bad thing re: light or dark skin. Rather is more of a personal preference.

No. I mean you gave a certain perspective about how you believe "color" is perceived in Latin and Carribean countries. You said it's not a color thing. And I was wondering having said that how do you view places like the DR, Argentina, Brazil, etc where often colorism is a major issue. I was trying ask about your perspective about colorism in those places aside from "race". To me race and color are two different things. Although I understand at times we all tend to lump them together because of certain characteristics that we all perceive as belonging to a certain "race".

I have to TOTALLY agree with you that colorism is indeed different in those places than here in the USA. But I do think it is an issue there...but I guess all we can base it on is on our own experiences. I personally don't think a dating experiences can really define what the consensus is among people there concerning their view of colorism though. I've heard it both ways.. black American women saying how they get approached by this one and that one that's Hispanics (or other)..which I have no doubt is true. And I've heard how the light ones think they are white so they don't have the interest..etc. But to me that's not an indication about color views in a certain country..no disrespect meant because I still get your point though.

I can't say I agree that in Latin America that it doesn't matter if you are light or dark. I've been told by relatives and to many others..it does matter. But it's not viewed in the same way as in the USA. Considering Latin America has a long history of political issues surrounding "white" privilege and where the African heritage in many of those places has been seriously denigrated from the history. Including how many of those places had been "whitewashed" by welcoming in Europeans so that the populations could be less "African". I think it's something that's ingrained in a lot of those places in a way that not the same as American colorism. I agree..but I certainly believe in Latin America colorism has existed for a VERY long time and continues to exist. And it's not as cut and dry as "preference".

No disrespect meant. I just view this a little differently from you. I guess we can agree on the points we do..and just let the rest go. I think we agree on the main points anyway...that colorism exists for many and it effects many POC adversely.

Keenylicious · 03-28-2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

That's strange... Considering Jamaicans are known for being ridiculously arrogant.

My bff once told me should stop associating w/ ppl from the "lesser islands" I was like chile, bye.

On my EVO. I'm too fancy for proofreading.

Cerendipity · 03-28-2012, 04:12 PM

CocoT · 03-28-2012, 04:15 PM

I was gonna go to the gym today, but I don't feel well. I'd probably feel better after I work out but I just can't right now. My allergies are out of control, I have a migrane, my body is sore for no reason. UGh.

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 04:16 PM

Yep, I'll take that.

I have had an experience with a manager of mine who was Chilean who came to this country and exhibited the influence of colorism as you described. She had fair skin, light eyes, and dyed her hair blonde. She also married a white American man. Granted all of her friends (including myself) were from all walks of life and skin tones and she shared no issues of color with us. From knowing her, I just felt like her preferences dictated her lifestyle choices, but she did talk about those preferences coming from something ingrained in her culture. This is just another example of why I don't think that the colorism is as much of an issue as it is here (I just mean that she is okay with people of darker skin even if that is not her romantic preference, whereas here she would be okay to not associate with darker skinned people, eg, not be questioned about it). But we can definitely agree on the main points here for sure and agree to disagree on the rest as you stated.

I am still on the phone with my friend and he has pointed out that whitewashing in Latin America began after slavery was abolished pretty much everywhere, so this suggests that perhaps the ideologies (he says "direct pressure") comes from the laws that were being implemented in the US (ie, Jim Crow). His example is Castro in Cuba wanting to unify the country in response to US attempted segregation of neighboring countries with POC. So yeah, I find this super interesting...

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keenylicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

That's strange... Considering Jamaicans are known for being ridiculously arrogant.

My bff once told me should stop associating w/ ppl from the "lesser islands" I was like chile, bye.

On my EVO. I'm too fancy for proofreading.

I think that the point that he was trying to make is that Haitians seem to march to their own drum compared to some of the other Carib islands. Their culture and traditions seem to often times be either in direct contradiction or opposition to the cultures and traditions of everyone else in the region. This level of "standing out" is what fuels their bravado that I mentioned earlier. Not saying that they actually are "louder" or "more arrogant" than the others, but they feel more justified in being that way because of their history and economic struggles (and that turns ppl off).

It's all very interesting to me because I am not from this region at all lol.

cheveuxbouclés · 03-28-2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keenylicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

That's strange... Considering Jamaicans are known for being ridiculously arrogant.

My bff once told me should stop associating w/ ppl from the "lesser islands" I was like chile, bye.

On my EVO. I'm too fancy for proofreading.

I think that the point that he was trying to make is that Haitians seem to march to their own drum compared to some of the other Carib islands. Their culture and traditions seem to often times be either in direct contradiction or opposition to the cultures and traditions of everyone else in the region. This level of "standing out" is what fuels their bravado that I mentioned earlier. Not saying that they actually are "louder" or "more arrogant" than the others, but they feel more justified in being that way because of their history and economic struggles (and that turns ppl off).

It's all very interesting to me because I am not from this region at all lol.

Ok, that is more understandable. That is one of the first things to come out of a Haitian's mouth lol.

Like any other culture, they can be brash, arrogant, hard-core fighters...maybe I am biased, but most Haitians are VERY strong and resilient people. They have (and still)endured so much. So to me, that grants them a lot of bragging rights. It takes a lot to have that much pride, in spite of people treating you like trash and thinking they are better than you.

artemis513 · 03-28-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheveuxbouclés

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keenylicious

That's strange... Considering Jamaicans are known for being ridiculously arrogant.

My bff once told me should stop associating w/ ppl from the "lesser islands" I was like chile, bye.

On my EVO. I'm too fancy for proofreading.

I think that the point that he was trying to make is that Haitians seem to march to their own drum compared to some of the other Carib islands. Their culture and traditions seem to often times be either in direct contradiction or opposition to the cultures and traditions of everyone else in the region. This level of "standing out" is what fuels their bravado that I mentioned earlier. Not saying that they actually are "louder" or "more arrogant" than the others, but they feel more justified in being that way because of their history and economic struggles (and that turns ppl off).

It's all very interesting to me because I am not from this region at all lol.

Ok, that is more understandable. That is one of the first things to come out of a Haitian's mouth lol.

Like any other culture, they can be brash, arrogant, hard-core fighters...maybe I am biased, but most Haitians are VERY strong and resilient people. They have (and still)endured so much. So to me, that grants them a lot of bragging rights. It takes a lot to have that much pride, in spite of people treating you like trash and thinking they are better than you.

See that's what I said! And I asked my friend, "so why is everyone giving them the evil eye?" and he said, "Sigh...only when they do it to you will you understand". Lol, I guess.

cheveuxbouclés · 03-28-2012, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheveuxbouclés

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

I think that the point that he was trying to make is that Haitians seem to march to their own drum compared to some of the other Carib islands. Their culture and traditions seem to often times be either in direct contradiction or opposition to the cultures and traditions of everyone else in the region. This level of "standing out" is what fuels their bravado that I mentioned earlier. Not saying that they actually are "louder" or "more arrogant" than the others, but they feel more justified in being that way because of their history and economic struggles (and that turns ppl off).

It's all very interesting to me because I am not from this region at all lol.

Ok, that is more understandable. That is one of the first things to come out of a Haitian's mouth lol.

Like any other culture, they can be brash, arrogant, hard-core fighters...maybe I am biased, but most Haitians are VERY strong and resilient people. They have (and still)endured so much. So to me, that grants them a lot of bragging rights. It takes a lot to have that much pride, in spite of people treating you like trash and thinking they are better than you.

See that's what I said! And I asked my friend, "so why is everyone giving them the evil eye?" and he said, "Sigh...only when they do it to you will you understand". Lol, I guess.

Well I can't speak for your friend or his experiences. I myself didn't grow up immersed in the culture. My parents divorced, and while I saw and spent time with my dad all the time, he didn't see fit to teach me much. He said my mom was American and I live in a America... I hold that against him to this day. During those days, being Haitian was like the black plague. No one really could tell my dad was, because he is super light ( ignorance, yes.) So I "passed" and didn't get teased or anything. To this day, I feel horrible knowing that I was ashamed to claim my heritage. It wasn't until high school, when a Haitian basketball player all of sudden got real cute, when people kind of laid off the Haitians.

Only since college have I become more 'Haitian' lol. I started hanging with my dad's side more, eating the food, picking up a little kreyol and french. One of my besties is Haitian too. It's still odd when she or someone else refers to me as Haitian tho. Not because I am ashamed of being it, but because I feel like I am an outsider and ignorant of my own culture. However; I AM PROUD

cheveuxbouclés · 03-28-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keenylicious

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis513

Ok, he's on the phone with me right now. He has some points on the "are hispanics white or black" thing too but I'll come back to that.

Haitians basically are disliked by the other Caribs because their "culture" is not like any of the others. They pride themselves as being the only group to have directly liberated themselves from white colonists and they have this brash bravado to go with that. That bravado turns everyone else off. He also said that they still have strong French and East African culture and views that seem to undermine the cultural vibe of everyone else. So they are looked at basically like black sheep, so to speak. That's probably why no one will say it out loud. Haitians tend to do enough talking as it is (again this is from him, not me lol).

That's strange... Considering Jamaicans are known for being ridiculously arrogant.

My bff once told me should stop associating w/ ppl from the "lesser islands" I was like chile, bye.

On my EVO. I'm too fancy for proofreading.

Yeah, my bf is Jamaican and I had a bad experience with that attitude from one of his family members one thanksgiving... He JUST lived that down from like 3 years ago

Cerendipity · 03-28-2012, 05:03 PM