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Old 07-11-2012, 05:57 PM   #21
 
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Very interesting

ETA I see the company is contacted already

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Old 07-11-2012, 06:00 PM   #22
 
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Very interesting
I've contacted Signature Textures, with a link to this thread...particularly Lovemenappy's post, with a suggestion to make haste in addressing the concern.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:48 PM   #23
 
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:22 PM   #24
 
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Very interesting
I've contacted Signature Textures, with a link to this thread...particularly Lovemenappy's post, with a suggestion to make haste in addressing the concern.
Thanks Ninjarette. I hope my intentions dont get miscontrued as being malicious because that's not my intention at all..and if my suspicion is baseless I humbly apologize...and Ill edit my op to reflect that if it turns out that I am wrong. It just looks odd to me. Cornstarch as a SECOND ingredient along with borax? In a cream formula? All products arent created equal, but at the end of the day hair creams boil down to water + oil + emulsifier/detangler/conditioner + preservative. It's difficult to reinvent the wheel and I just have never seen a cream with corn starch along with borax used in a LEAVE IN HAIR cream. And then Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid and sodium hydroxide is soap. Not accusing them of using the Stay Flo, but even when you google the ingredients alone they refer back to laundry detergent and this starch concentrate. It really really looks similar ingredient wise, and the line up of ingredients that they have listed are what is considered soap.

The claims regarding changing the texture of hair is what tipped me off. If this turns out to be repackaged starch concentrate, as a formulator, this would definitely be the most morally repugnant, dishonest, and irresponsible thing a business could possibly do in my honest opinion.

Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid Information | Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid Guide | GoodGuide

When you google "cyclocarboxypropyloleic acid sodium hydroxide" Stay Flo is the first thing that shows in a google search the second is Signature Textures Ingredient list.
I'm trying to get the "soap" thing out of this...I'm a soapmaker, and I must be missing some chemistry notes. We will get to the bottom of this. There's a few things that are suspect though, to be honest.

BTW, borax was/is used to clean HAIR (my granny used it for hair and clothes), clothes...and it's been used in skin lotions, as well.

Thanks for the info...
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:29 PM   #25
 
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A couple of things are jumping out at me here...so let me put my chemist hat on.

1. Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid and sodium hydroxide are not soap. When you put them together you do not get soap. To make soap you need the saponification process. If that was the case, sodium hydroxide would be listed much higher in the ingredient list. Where it is listed currently leaves me to think it is a PH adjuster.

2. The IUPAC name for borax is sodium decaborate tetrahydrate. Borax also is known as sodium borate, sodium tetraborate or disodium tetraborate. Borax is used in LOTS of cosmetics including tooth paste. It is used in a lot of buffer solutions and is a laundry booster/water softener. Broax is not soap....but it is used in a lot of soaps (including hand soaps) because it leaves a softening effect. Borax also is used as a natural fungicide, preservative, insecticide, herbicide, disinfectant and dessicant.

3. When mixed with water, borax forms hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) which is why it is used as a laundry booster because peroxide is a color safe bleach alternative and and water softner.

4. I've seen lots of cream products that use corn starch to prevent the "greasy" feeling and on lots of DIY cosmetic forums, lots of people add corn starch to hair and skin creams to prevent them from feeling greasy.

ETA

5. Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid is a skin conditoning agent and is used to increase viscosity in formulations.

I've searched and the only laundry related item that I can find this listed as an ingredient is in the sta flo you mentioned which is a spray starch...not a laundry detergent.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:35 PM   #26
 
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A couple of things are jumping out at me here...so let me put my chemist hat on.

1. Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid and sodium hydroxide are not soap. When you put them together you do not get soap. To make soap you need the saponification process. If that was the case, sodium hydroxide would be listed much higher in the ingredient list. Where it is listed currently leaves me to think it is a PH adjuster.

2. The IUPAC name for borax is sodium decaborate tetrahydrate. Borax also is known as sodium borate, sodium tetraborate or disodium tetraborate. Borax is used in LOTS of cosmetics including tooth paste. It is used in a lot of buffer solutions and is a laundry booster/water softener. Broax is not soap....but it is used in a lot of soaps (including hand soaps) because it leaves a softening effect. Borax also is used as a natural fungicide, preservative, insecticide, herbicide, disinfectant and dessicant.

3. When mixed with water, borax forms hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) which is why it is used as a laundry booster because peroxide is a color safe bleach alternative and and water softner.

4. I've seen lots of cream products that use corn starch to prevent the "greasy" feeling and on lots of DIY cosmetic forums, lots of people add corn starch to hair and skin creams to prevent them from feeling greasy.
AND when adequate saponification (the right proportion of S.hydroxide to oils/fats ) is complete...there is no more sodium hydroxide in the formulation. That's why many soapmakers use the term "saponified oils", instead of listing the oils, and then sodium hydroxide after.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:41 PM   #27
 
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:42 PM   #28
 
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:45 PM   #29
 
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Thanks Ninjarette. I hope my intentions dont get miscontrued as being malicious because that's not my intention at all..and if my suspicion is baseless I humbly apologize...and Ill edit my op to reflect that if it turns out that I am wrong. It just looks odd to me. Cornstarch as a SECOND ingredient along with borax? In a cream formula? All products arent created equal, but at the end of the day hair creams boil down to water + oil + emulsifier/detangler/conditioner + preservative. It's difficult to reinvent the wheel and I just have never seen a cream with corn starch along with borax used in a LEAVE IN HAIR cream. And then Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid and sodium hydroxide is soap. Not accusing them of using the Stay Flo, but even when you google the ingredients alone they refer back to laundry detergent and this starch concentrate. It really really looks similar ingredient wise, and the line up of ingredients that they have listed are what is considered soap.

The claims regarding changing the texture of hair is what tipped me off. If this turns out to be repackaged starch concentrate, as a formulator, this would definitely be the most morally repugnant, dishonest, and irresponsible thing a business could possibly do in my honest opinion.

Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid Information | Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid Guide | GoodGuide

When you google "cyclocarboxypropyloleic acid sodium hydroxide" Stay Flo is the first thing that shows in a google search the second is Signature Textures Ingredient list.
I'm trying to get the "soap" thing out of this...I'm a soapmaker, and I must be missing some chemistry notes. We will get to the bottom of this. There's a few things that are suspect though, to be honest.

BTW, borax was/is used to clean HAIR (my granny used it for hair and clothes), clothes...and it's been used in skin lotions, as well.

Thanks for the info...
Okay. I was referring to how the Stay Flo ingredient list referenced it "......Soap (Cyclocarboxypropyloleic Acid,Sodium Hydroxide)". Just wanted to clarify, I'm not accusing the product of being soap, Stay Flo isn't soap either. I was referring to the Stay Flo ingredient list there.

I know of a lot of people who use borax to clean hair as well as lotions as well. Again, not saying this is it or not....I did a search for the ingredients listed (and the way they had them listed) and Stay Flo pulled up first with their line pulling up second. I just found the ingredient listing to be odd...the way things are listed coupled with the ingredient similarities.
...and this is what I want them to address. Cuz the label is wonky...it doesn't make sense. I agree.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:52 PM   #30
 
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Actually, I don't find it odd...I'm kinda impressed. Think about it: The whole point of liquid laundry starches is to smooth the clothes and make them "hold" the shape/sleekness that has been pressed into them by an iron.


So let's follow this chain from getting clothes/fabric to hold the shape/sleeknes that the iron has put into them and move that into hair. When you look at it from that aspect and the claims the product makes, it doesn't look so far off base. You smooth the product into the hair and the combination of ingredients smoothes the hair and "holds" the shape. They managed to create it w/o the use of a bunch of waxes that most hair products use to get hold.

I just looked up most of the ingredients in the product that I'm not familiar with and none of them have any toxic effects or environmental issues. So other than the combination looking odd compaired to most hair products, I don't see any big red flags. I'm going to wait and see what the product maker has to say in response. I don't think I've missed anything but if I have please feel free to point it out to me.
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Old 07-11-2012, 07:59 PM   #31
 
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Actually, I don't find it odd...I'm kinda impressed. Think about it: The whole point of liquid laundry starches is to smooth the clothes and make them "hold" the shape/sleekness that has been pressed into them by an iron.


So let's follow this chain from getting clothes/fabric to hold the shape/sleeknes that the iron has put into them and move that into hair. When you look at it from that aspect and the claims the product makes, it doesn't look so far off base. You smooth the product into the hair and the combination of ingredients smoothes the hair and "holds" the shape. They managed to create it w/o the use of a bunch of waxes that most hair products use to get hold.

I just looked up most of the ingredients in the product that I'm not familiar with and none of them have any toxic effects or environmental issues. So other than the combination looking odd compaired to most hair products, I don't see any big red flags. I'm going to wait and see what the product maker has to say in response. I don't think I've missed anything but if I have please feel free to point it out to me.

If you don't drink it, you should be good. There are a few known skin/respiratory irritants, so use common sense. Plus, it's about how much is in the actual product.

But the fact that the ingredient list so closely matches Stay Flo Liquid Starch does bring in the same issue that the "Quench Cream" lady was up against. I would hope this company isn't buying jugs of Stay Flo, and mixing in oils...that's unethical, in my opinion.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:06 PM   #32
 
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:09 PM   #33
 
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Actually, I don't find it odd...I'm kinda impressed. Think about it: The whole point of liquid laundry starches is to smooth the clothes and make them "hold" the shape/sleekness that has been pressed into them by an iron.


So let's follow this chain from getting clothes/fabric to hold the shape/sleeknes that the iron has put into them and move that into hair. When you look at it from that aspect and the claims the product makes, it doesn't look so far off base. You smooth the product into the hair and the combination of ingredients smoothes the hair and "holds" the shape. They managed to create it w/o the use of a bunch of waxes that most hair products use to get hold.

I just looked up most of the ingredients in the product that I'm not familiar with and none of them have any toxic effects or environmental issues. So other than the combination looking odd compaired to most hair products, I don't see any big red flags. I'm going to wait and see what the product maker has to say in response. I don't think I've missed anything but if I have please feel free to point it out to me.

If you don't drink it, you should be good. There are a few known skin/respiratory irritants, so use common sense. Plus, it's about how much is in the actual product.

But the fact that the ingredient list so closely matches Stay Flo Liquid Starch does bring in the same issue that the "Quench Cream" lady was up against. I would hope this company isn't buying jugs of Stay Flo, and mixing in oils...that's unethical, in my opinion.
This exactly.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:13 PM   #34
 
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Actually, I don't find it odd...I'm kinda impressed. Think about it: The whole point of liquid laundry starches is to smooth the clothes and make them "hold" the shape/sleekness that has been pressed into them by an iron.


So let's follow this chain from getting clothes/fabric to hold the shape/sleeknes that the iron has put into them and move that into hair. When you look at it from that aspect and the claims the product makes, it doesn't look so far off base. You smooth the product into the hair and the combination of ingredients smoothes the hair and "holds" the shape. They managed to create it w/o the use of a bunch of waxes that most hair products use to get hold.

I just looked up most of the ingredients in the product that I'm not familiar with and none of them have any toxic effects or environmental issues. So other than the combination looking odd compaired to most hair products, I don't see any big red flags. I'm going to wait and see what the product maker has to say in response. I don't think I've missed anything but if I have please feel free to point it out to me.

If you don't drink it, you should be good. There are a few known skin/respiratory irritants, so use common sense. Plus, it's about how much is in the actual product.

But the fact that the ingredient list so closely matches Stay Flo Liquid Starch does bring in the same issue that the "Quench Cream" lady was up against. I would hope this company isn't buying jugs of Stay Flo, and mixing in oils...that's unethical, in my opinion.
I'm assuming that the ingredient list is similar based off of the concept...not that they are buying up jugs of stay flo. I TOTALLY agree that would be highly unethical and would be a legal issue. Unlike the Quench lady, they aint posted a picture of a jug of Stay Flo with some oils and a jar of agro corn starch talking bout they mixing up batches of thier product so until they respond this is all speculation (some good speculation at that...) so I'm waiting for thier response.
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:16 PM   #35
 
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At this point the company has neither confirmed, denied nor evaded the questions of their usage of liquid starch. We need to allow for them to respond. In other cases when we go in on a company there is some concrete evidence to support the claims of unetical practices. In this case it is all speculation and is potentially damaging to this companies reputation.

...i'm supersonic
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Old 07-11-2012, 08:26 PM   #36
 
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At this point the company has neither confirmed, denied nor evaded the questions of their usage of liquid starch. We need to allow for them to respond. In other cases when we go in on a company there is some concrete evidence to support the claims of unetical practices. In this case it is all speculation and is potentially damaging to this companies reputation.

...i'm supersonic
Exactly, and I realize that so I'm careful as to what I say about it. I just noticed the ingredient similarities. If they deny the usage of it, I'll leave it at that and remove my OP as I dont want to take even the slightest chance that someone may read it later on and not know that it turned out not to be true.

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Old 07-11-2012, 08:29 PM   #37
 
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Lurking on this one because I know nothing about hair chem. But you sisters have impressed the heck out of me just by analyzing this situation in such detail. My hubby its a chemist who was just at the iupac conference last week i'm going to run this by him because I think it would interest him.

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Old 07-11-2012, 08:46 PM   #38
 
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At this point the company has neither confirmed, denied nor evaded the questions of their usage of liquid starch. We need to allow for them to respond. In other cases when we go in on a company there is some concrete evidence to support the claims of unetical practices. In this case it is all speculation and is potentially damaging to this companies reputation.

...i'm supersonic
Yes, I agree.
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Old 07-11-2012, 09:07 PM   #39
 
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Funnily enough I was thinking about trying this line. The stuff looks awesome and I've seen some good reviews.

I will say though, I too did a search of the ST inactive ingredients. When spelled correctly Sta Flo is the only thing that shows up. It may be just the case that the ingredient list is just different from what we're accustomed to seeing. I've seen corn starch and borax in lotions by the way, but even if cornstarch is being used to absorb greasiness that's a LOT of cornstarch for it to be as the second ingredient in a hand made product. I just dont think the ingredient list is listed right and I'm put off by that fact along with the fact that a lot of the things on their website are spelled wrong, but I think even if it was the starch i would prob still give it a try..lol. Just have to see what they have to say...

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Old 07-13-2012, 09:29 AM   #40
 
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This just goes to show that if you look hard enough, you'll find anything. This creator has a unique concept to her line which I like, but there are lots of things out there with similar formulations. Sadly, google showed someone starch-- so now we have someone on the lam having to explain away yet another thing. We'll see I guess....
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