Going overboard and taking natural hair to the extreme

I have stopped going to the nameless site for that very reason. I think the owner of the site(as well as some of the members) spend way too much time policing the posts. If you are going to discuss hair you should be able to discuss all aspects of it freely!
Originally Posted by akilamonique
the irony is, i think the discussion over there is free-er than it is here. they really do talk about all aspects of hair while we tend to get stuck in the same ruts of growth/shine/definition/what hair type am i?/i want my hair to look like so and so's
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Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 6,000

the irony is, i think the discussion over there is free-er than it is here. they really do talk about all aspects of hair while we tend to get stuck in the same ruts of growth/shine/definition/what hair type am i?/i want my hair to look like so and so's
Originally Posted by subbrock
i don't find that to be true at all. overall, i think members on both sites have the same frustrations, concerns, and desires about their highly textured hair. and it think the majority of posts on both sites talk about the same few topics over and over again. over here, there is no big brother watching and waiting to close a topic because of certain taboo subjects being brought up. so in that vein, there is more freedom over here to discuss hair.

i find it interesting that no topic over there (to my knowledge) where members chimed in about hating their shrinkage and sharing methods to stretch out hair was ever locked--shrinkage, which is as natural a property of highly textured hair as coils, zig-zags, and fuzziness. no one was ever admonished about self-hating on the shrink factor. no one was ever chided for advising others about how to give the illusion of longer hair, even if the suggested methods involved a 7-step process, layers of products, and daily repetition.

but a topic about seeking curl definition, heat styling, straightening hair to trim it, or members using andre's hair typing system would either be locked immediately or a mod would interject the site's views about hair typing.

no, i think people over here have more freedom to talk about the nuances of their hair without fear of having their topic shut down or having members corner them for a tongue lashing.
"Dogs stink too, but I like dog stink." ~ rileyb
I've only perused the site, but just from the posts here I have to say that it does seem a little extreme just from this standpoint. - I don't think nappy and curly hair should be seen differently.

IMHO, and this is generally speaking: nappy/kinky hair is nothing but super, extremely tight curls.
that's it.
B/c I view 4a/b hair this way I find not mentioning curl def, or curl type unnatural. I understand what people are saying about trying to make your hair look and behave in a way that just isn't in it's repertoire.
But accepting your hair as super-curly hair and all of what that means should kill the good hair/bad hair concept. Curly hair has a tendency to be dry, frizzy, big, swells in humidity, kinky, fragile etc and those on the far end of that spectrum will experience these characteristics with greater intensity. (things we all know)

What I'm trying to say is that separating the 4a/b hair type and/or only referring to it as Nappy and (to me) dismissing that it has any relation to curly hair is not the answer either.
I think the best way to bolster self-esteem and confidence with respect to natural 4a/b hair is with a logical and fact based approach, devoid of judgments.

(learn about your hair's attributes and accept them whole-heartedly).

Someone said we are the hardest on our hair, hmmm is it a coincidence that we seem to also be the least informed about our hair it's natural qualities and care.
Can we just be ourselves?? Embrace who you are completely --God doesn't make mistakes
its funny that people say that 4a/b hair is just "really curly hair" but even HERE where it is all looked at as being curly NO ONE wants to be classified as a 4b.....

And Kurlikinklassic, that is the point on that site. That nappy and curly 4a/4b hair IS the same. The owner of that site has decided that she doesn't want to focus of trying to define the "curls" in 4a/4b hair. For a LOT of women, they NEED to hear that message. Because so many of us afro textured ladies don't have curls unless it is loaded down with conditioner and shlacked to death with gel.

IMO...compairing the length, shrinkage threads to the curl defining threads are like compairing apples and oranges.
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the irony is, i think the discussion over there is free-er than it is here. they really do talk about all aspects of hair while we tend to get stuck in the same ruts of growth/shine/definition/what hair type am i?/i want my hair to look like so and so's
Originally Posted by subbrock
I do agree with this also. But I get the benefits of both boards so I'm happy!
Lady Hasytal in the Land of Product in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

"Trust is knowing your SO would do the right thing in the face of strange vagina." Nej
[/B]

the irony is, i think the discussion over there is free-er than it is here. they really do talk about all aspects of hair while we tend to get stuck in the same ruts of growth/shine/definition/what hair type am i?/i want my hair to look like so and so's
Originally Posted by subbrock
i don't find that to be true at all. overall, i think members on both sites have the same frustrations, concerns, and desires about their highly textured hair. and it think the majority of posts on both sites talk about the same few topics over and over again. over here, there is no big brother watching and waiting to close a topic because of certain taboo subjects being brought up. so in that vein, there is more freedom over here to discuss hair.

i find it interesting that
no topic over there (to my knowledge) where members chimed in about hating their shrinkage and sharing methods to stretch out hair was ever locked--shrinkage, which is as natural a property of highly textured hair as coils, zig-zags, and fuzziness. no one was ever admonished about self-hating on the shrink factor. no one was ever chided for advising others about how to give the illusion of longer hair, even if the suggested methods involved a 7-step process, layers of products, and daily repetition.

but a topic about seeking curl definition, heat styling, straightening hair to trim it, or members using andre's hair typing system would either be locked immediately or a mod would interject the site's views about hair typing.

no, i think people over here have more freedom to talk about the nuances of their hair without fear of having their topic shut down or having members corner them for a tongue lashing.
Originally Posted by rainshower

I don't know about that. I've seen MANY threads where members tell others to try to embrace their shrinkage instead of fighting it constantly. I'm one of the members that do try to help people in working with their shrinkage, and I've seen other members do the same thing.
Lady Hasytal in the Land of Product in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

"Trust is knowing your SO would do the right thing in the face of strange vagina." Nej
[/B]
I've only perused the site, but just from the posts here I have to say that it does seem a little extreme just from this standpoint. - I don't think nappy and curly hair should be seen differently.

IMHO, and this is generally speaking: nappy/kinky hair is nothing but super, extremely tight curls.
that's it.
B/c I view 4a/b hair this way I find not mentioning curl def, or curl type unnatural. I understand what people are saying about trying to make your hair look and behave in a way that just isn't in it's repertoire.
But accepting your hair as super-curly hair and all of what that means should kill the good hair/bad hair concept. Curly hair has a tendency to be dry, frizzy, big, swells in humidity, kinky, fragile etc and those on the far end of that spectrum will experience these characteristics with greater intensity. (things we all know)

What I'm trying to say is that separating the 4a/b hair type and/or only referring to it as Nappy and (to me) dismissing that it has any relation to curly hair is not the answer either.
I think the best way to bolster self-esteem and confidence with respect to natural 4a/b hair is with a logical and fact based approach, devoid of judgments.

(learn about your hair's attributes and accept them whole-heartedly).

Someone said we are the hardest on our hair, hmmm is it a coincidence that we seem to also be the least informed about our hair it's natural qualities and care.
Originally Posted by kurlikinkiklassic
And why is this? Because the majority of women believe that they must "fix" their hair, be is gloriously long and straight, or perfectly curly. The whole hair care industry doesn't care either. There's a whole market of relaxers, texlaxers, straighteners, weaves, jherri curls, curly puddings promising to turn kinks into curls...you name it, they got it.
Lady Hasytal in the Land of Product in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

"Trust is knowing your SO would do the right thing in the face of strange vagina." Nej
[/B]
Very true Empressi..Industries don't care. With all the technological advances we've made in the last 50yrs alone natural hair care for AA could've been a lot farther than it is today.

NCC: I hear you on the site position.
Thanks for clarifying.

I guess for me I feel that if there's no curl pattern - you could poor a whole jar of gel on your head but it would be to no avail.

But anyway, now I know how what to expect if I ever post on that site.

thanks for the warning...
Can we just be ourselves?? Embrace who you are completely --God doesn't make mistakes
Very true Empressi..Industries don't care. With all the technological advances we've made in the last 50yrs alone natural hair care for AA could've been a lot farther than it is today.

NCC: I hear you on the site position.
Thanks for clarifying.

I guess for me I feel that if there's no curl pattern - you could poor a whole jar of gel on your head but it would be to no avail.

But anyway, now I know how what to expect if I ever post on that site.

thanks for the warning...
Originally Posted by kurlikinkiklassic
EXACTLY!!! And yet you STILL have women coming on THIS very board and a few others still looking for that ONE magic pill that will give them curl definition. In thier minds, until they have tired EVERY possible product...they ain't letting go! There are a few active postere here that I wanna just yank em up shake em and hell "you don't have curls to define and guess what...its OK. Your hair is STILL beautiful".

I've had chicks pm me asking what products I use, because I'm dark skinned and there is no way possible that I have the hair I have naturally (i'm soo not kidding either. I got this pm from a person on THIS board). When I tell them what products I use (and I've basicly got it down to two stylers that I mix together and a leave in) I was accused of having a texturizer because this person had tried the same products that I said and it didn't work for her.

For some people, this good hair/bad hair thing runs DEEP.
Wanna talk products? Come Join us here!
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Extremely thick, kinky curls/coils that have a mind of thier own!!!!
_____________________________
I like my men and my hair....KINKY!!!!
_____________________________
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Very true Empressi..Industries don't care. With all the technological advances we've made in the last 50yrs alone natural hair care for AA could've been a lot farther than it is today.

NCC: I hear you on the site position.
Thanks for clarifying.

I guess for me I feel that if there's no curl pattern - you could poor a whole jar of gel on your head but it would be to no avail.

But anyway, now I know how what to expect if I ever post on that site.

thanks for the warning...
Originally Posted by kurlikinkiklassic

I've had chicks pm me asking what products I use, because I'm dark skinned and there is no way possible that I have the hair I have naturally (i'm soo not kidding either. I got this pm from a person on THIS board). When I tell them what products I use (and I've basicly got it down to two stylers that I mix together and a leave in) I was accused of having a texturizer because this person had tried the same products that I said and it didn't work for her.

For some people, this good hair/bad hair thing runs DEEP.
Originally Posted by Nappy_curly_crown
Wow! ok yes, that is deep!

hmm, I use watered down gel and sometimes a leave-in and I've had people ask if I have a texturizer, but nothing compared to what you've experienced...
Can we just be ourselves?? Embrace who you are completely --God doesn't make mistakes
Yep, and cause I'm light skin, I have this grade of hair.

Thank God no one came at me with this bs on either board...wait, once on np when I was a newbie, this chick accused me of being dominican.

Well all of my np sisters raised up and came to my defense. I ain't never see sister girl again!!! lol
Lady Hasytal in the Land of Product in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

"Trust is knowing your SO would do the right thing in the face of strange vagina." Nej
[/B]
sad, just sad
Can we just be ourselves?? Embrace who you are completely --God doesn't make mistakes
sad, just sad
Originally Posted by kurlikinkiklassic

Sure is, which is why when some folks come at me with the "good hair" business, I shut them down right away.
Lady Hasytal in the Land of Product in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

"Trust is knowing your SO would do the right thing in the face of strange vagina." Nej
[/B]
Its funny how people get so caught up in what they DON'T have that they neglect to see the beauty in what God has given them. We must learn that your hair journey is not the same as mine we ALL have our own hair drama and issues. If I can stop salivating over Empressri's hair while the next chick is coveting my hair and instead we all focus on encouraging one another in hair health....

Sorry, I went into a hair utopia sermon that I don't think I am qualified to finish. I still sometimes catch myself dreaming of magic hair grease! SAAAD I know, pray for me.


"[My hair and I] are in an unhealthy relationship and I am the abuser."
--MissKinkyCoily

http://public.fotki.com/drawmuhfree/
Salivating is fine, coveting is not .

I won't lie, when I was 12 or 13, I wanted curly hair "like the Spanish girls". (I was relaxing my hair.) Everyday I would look at their hair and wish I had it.

Fast forward to now, I only want my hair!
Lady Hasytal in the Land of Product in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

"Trust is knowing your SO would do the right thing in the face of strange vagina." Nej
[/B]
This is why I don't get why people will keep suggesting 5-11 products to help the woman that says "my curls won't stay" vs. telling her, your hair just won't do that, work with what you've got. Maybe being direct like that is only acceptable on NP vs most other hairboards. That's another reason why NP serves a purpose.
Currently using:

Poo: CON Sulfate Free poo
Rinse out: Tresemme Naturals
Leave-in: CJAOO Daily Cond
Styler: KCCC sparingly and Ampro Olive Oil Gel where needed
DT: KBB Lucious Locks Mask + EVOO/Avocado
This is why I don't get why people will keep suggesting 5-11 products to help the woman that says "my curls won't stay" vs. telling her, your hair just won't do that, work with what you've got. Maybe being direct like that is only acceptable on NP vs most other hairboards. That's another reason why NP serves a purpose.
Originally Posted by keepitmovin

thats a GREAT point. i guess that is a huge difference that im not sure i thought about before...alot of people here use a blabillion products to get their hair to do what they want it to and over there alot of the styling products/routines are very simplistic.
I dislike not being able to put up avatars of black women with straight hair. You can put up an avatar of white women with straight hair, but cant do so with black women. I get the hair site if for natural peeps, yeah, but how would putting up any pic you want of a sista, hurt? It won't. it wont cause naturals to want to slap a perm in their hair. there is no harm. The site is pretty strict to me.

Type; 3c-4a
Prods: TBA

My hair HATES Vo5 & Suave with a passion, b/c of the dmdm hydantoin. Protein sensitive.
That site provided me with one of my first exposures to the...potentially problematic nature...of the hair typing system. In the beginning of my journey of being completely relaxer-free, I was entirely, I mean fanatically, attempting to hold on to that 3c category for dear life.

It didn't matter how much of my hair was actually 3c, it didn't matter if I knew how divisive and hamster-wheel the hair typing system could be (and usually was), I was a 3c and no one could convince me otherwise. Eventually, I tagged a 4a on there because I thought it made me more acceptable on the site, it would give my hair more credence as being really nappy.

Because, ironically, I did have hair that fell squarely into that "3c/4a" category. I did have natural curls. I did see curl definition quite easily. Some curls were bigger than others--some were coffee stirrer diameter, some chalk, some pencil--but they were all clearly present. But I was hesitant to speak on that as I saw some people being called to task on even mentioning anything about curl definition. Now, I know full well that I had many hair issues at that point (hoping that by now, I've knocked the majority of them out), but I kept wondering to myself, "Well, if this site is about accepting my hair as it is, why do I feel the need to nappify my texture in order to belong?"

Don't get me wrong, I completely and wholeheartedly agree with one of the premises of the site, that it's more dedicated to the "tighter-textured" hair that's usually vilified. But if people shouldn't feel bad because their hair has a tighter-texture, I didn't understand how I should feel bad because mine wasn't?

I didn't appreciate how it seemed like many times, the automatic assumption was that people had f'ed up perspectives about their hair, and that assumption was the foundation for many conversations on the site. I get it, I completely understand why that happens--but my seeing curls in the mirror doesn't mean I'm secretly lusting after the hair of Rachel True or Mariah Carey, or that I'm delusional, or that anything other than "this is what I see." Sure, I might be an outlier, and I'd almost rather people err on the side of being "militant" and potentially rubbing those like myself the wrong way...than to see them losing the reins on their guiding principles, and then you get people being depressed or ashamed of their hair because they can't make their non-existent curls "pop."

But it still rubbed me a bit raw. Especially, especially when I saw that whole "non-chemical/heat manipulation" trend start happening. It's like, um excuse me, so someone's going to be crucified for asking a question about using gel to eliminate frizzies, yet there are step-by-step guides to using elastic bands to wrap sections of wet hair so they dry straight?

Oh, wait, more manageable.

Oh, wait, it's just another styling option.

Oh, wait, no, either come down on all of them equally or rethink the underlying principle. Because a lot of people on that site got just as caught up in altering the state of their natural hair in a so-called "nappy-approved" manner, as did the people who were caught up in pouring on entire bottles of conditioner+silly putty+monkey manure onto their hair to make curls fall out of the sky. Some people lived in two/four/six/eight/selective justice is so great-strand twists exactly because they have not grown used to their natural texture and might even fear it.

If one's mental indoctrination, the other one might be the flipside of the same coin.

And I also don't get the "it's ok to color your hair, but you can't use heat or relaxers" concept. I might be, again, one of the more extreme cases, but I distinctly remember most chemical hair coloring processes (not things like henna) damaging my hair to varying degrees. Yeah, ok, a quadruple process to turn me into a platinum blonde is going to kill my hair, of course--but I still sustained enough damage from even semi-permanent coloring for me to wonder...well, if the idea is to be more cognizant of how all chemical processes can harm or alter the hair...

And I know, I know, I've seen the threads there where the owner herself explains that her personal stance is what it is, and I completely respect her view in that sense. I just wondered when people were going to be called on bleaching their hair multiple times, since it loosened their texture and caused noticeable follicle damage.

Having said that? That site needs to be there. Oh my goodness, that site needs to be there and their mission statement needs to not change. They could step up the militancy in my eyes and not be pushing things too far--what, like "the powers that be" have softened their stances, and all of a sudden all textures of black hair are appreciated and honored in society? There is a place for this site, and there is a place for that site. I truly hope that people manage to find both, as they add so many vital dimensions to understanding and growing in one's hair journey.

I just sometimes wish that on that site? All spades were discussed in the same manner as being, in fact, at the very least, potential spades. I'm not hearing that some people didn't hide hair/self-hatred behind nappy-tolerant rhetoric. I saw it happening and it was a main reason I went into lurk mode.
I dislike not being able to put up avatars of black women with straight hair. You can put up an avatar of white women with straight hair, but cant do so with black women. I get the hair site if for natural peeps, yeah, but how would putting up any pic you want of a sista, hurt? It won't. it wont cause naturals to want to slap a perm in their hair. there is no harm. The site is pretty strict to me.
Originally Posted by N.D. Aube
See, I actually agreed with their position on this topic. I head to NP because I know what I'm "not" going to see on the site, and it was a little odd to see avis and siggys of straight haired black women. I also did think it was like "temptation" for those women who were still transitioning their minds to being natural (especially if they were getting criticism from all sides). Even me, when I see a fly straightened look, I certainly don't want to slap a relaxer in my hair, but occasionally I think about pulling out the flat iron, so I can imagine how it could be for women who are fighting against decades of "straight hair" conditioning. I belong to other sites where the focus is not on curly or natural hair, and on those sites, I fully expect to see and embrace straight, curly, kinky, wigged, or weaved up women. If fact, my hair is straightened in my avi on one site. But on NP, I'm happy to see (black) women with natural or highly textured hair everywhere, just like I'm more thrilled to see the hair of wurlies and curlies and coilies and kinkies of all backgrounds on this site than straight haired women.
Natural pics: http://picturetrail.com/shelacious
pw: kinky
Hair type: Spongy & kinky texture. Coily & curly strands.

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