I don't think that my hair is 4b. My logic is this...the numbers represent the size of the coil/curl. My coils are the size of a pen spring/coffee stirrer (which is about 1/8" in diameter-see pic below). Many of the 4s I see have coils that are bigger than mine (about 1/4"). Add to that my coils do not clump together at all, and together these two things make a huge difference in care and styling.



Honestly, I would say that I am part of an unrepresented hair type, and I petition the addition of category 5. IMO, the difference is not between 4A and 4B, if your hair has a smaller coil, but it is the difference between 4 and 5.

There may not be a 4c hair type but i definetly know that my hair is something other than a 4b. It is very dry and kinky and it doesn't curl when it is soaking wet. My hair doesn't do anything other than sit on top of my head.

That's the definition of 4a...4a is smaller than pencil size to coffee stirrer size and smaller. The definition of 4B is hair that is fluffy with no curl pattern, even when stretched. All the number/letters have range so if you see ppl with bigger curls/coils, you might be the same hair type or they may have mistyped themselves. Have you seen the pen spring thread? Lots of 4as have pen springs. Picture thread attempt 4a, pen spring ladies

The number/letters are only about curl circumference. Ppl who say they are 4C+ tend to cite their reasons being that they have no curl/coil whatsoever or their hair is "very nappy." How fine or coarse the hair is, is irrelevant. If there's no curl/coil pattern, its 4B.

I don't think we need another category but I'd be interested to hear a self identified 4C's explanataion of what it is. Good topic!
Also, IMO most hairdressers really don't know how to do 3c hair. Even less know how to do type 4 of any kind. So when they act like they should be overcharging you, I think that reflects more on their lack of training/skill than the alleged manageability of your hair. Just my 2 cents!

I get the A/B/C thing... I was just throwing coil size into the mix, because I think that it is just as important to care and styling as other characteristics.

The difference between a pencil diameter and a coffee stirrer diameter is huge, imo. And as such, I believe it calls for another category...5. I consider myself a 5C, since I have very small coils, with no definition, even soaking wet/with product. And even have to be careful with my twist outs.

This is what NC says on type 4 hair -
Type 4 is kinky, or very tightly curled, with a clearly visible curl pattern

• Circumference: Crochet needle or even smaller

I always thought that coffee stirrer or pen spring size was 4a, I believe that is the original definition.

I agree with Nappy*Me and the others who say there is no such thing as 4c hair. The picture of her hair is exactly what I think of when I think of 4b hair.

BUT - I think this thread once again proves why the hair typing system is erroneous, because there are always going to be outliers, and if it's a "true" system, people can't just make up additional hair types because they don't feel as if they belong in any of the categories. Also, since hair typing doesn't take texture into consideration, a lot of people don't realize that your hair can look VERY different due to texture, but you will still fall into the same category as someone else.

That circumference description is so misleading. I crochet, and they are crochet hooks, for one. Second, and more important, I have hooks that vary in size from 3mm to 16mm... That's a very large difference! So, which size hook are they talking about?

And, what is this Z pattern coil they keep referring to? My hair has a round coil pattern, no sharp angles. Yet has no definition. So, I'm not 4A, because I have no definition, and I'm not 4B, because I have no Z pattern. So, where does that leave me?

That circumference description is so misleading. I crochet, and they are crochet hooks, for one. Second, and more important, I have hooks that vary in size from 3mm to 16mm... That's a very large difference! So, which size hook are they talking about?

And, what is this Z pattern coil they keep referring to? My hair has a round coil pattern, no sharp angles. Yet has no definition. So, I'm not 4A, because I have no definition, and I'm not 4B, because I have no Z pattern. So, where does that leave me?

The bolded part of what you typed doesn't make alot of sense and it's contrary to the description from NC that you posted. Clumping and having defined curls is the only way one would know the size of their curls thus what hair type group they belong to. If there is no clumping and no definition that would be 4b. I have not seen any type 3's that didn't have a clearly visible curl pattern. Type 4a tend to know they are 4a due to a clearly visible curl pattern which would mean clumping is involved. Type 4b does not clump and has no clearly visible curl pattern it is a fluffy cloud.

The poster you quoted made some good points and the fact this debate is ongoing is the reason why hair typing should be thrown out the window.

Absolutely not to the bolded. Pull out a strand of your hair and you will be able to see the curl pattern - even if it is one strand rather than a group of curls. A type 3 can brush their curls out so they are no longer clumped, so do they turn into a 4b? Absolutely not. The reason I said the other poster seemed 4a was because she described little coils, which is 4a - and these can often be defined WITH product, and I've seen this many times. But, I also said I didn't see a picture of her hair so I couldn't really say what her hair type was. Once again, this is why hair typing is silly, which is what I said in my first post in this thread. I was simply addressing her questions.

Hair typing should be done on unmanipulated hair. Not hair with product or hair that has been brushed out. Manipulated hair can mimic other textures. So the point about brushing out curls is irrelevant.

I do have very small coils in my hair. However, I consider myself a 4b not a 4a because my hair does not have a clearly visible curl pattern. To me this means, that the average person would not look at my hair and call it curly. My hair looks afro-textured even when my very small coils can be seen they still don't look like curly hair. Because the coils are so tiny it looks moreso like a fluffy cloud.

LOL...to be totally honest, I think you're thinking about this way too much. And a hook is a kind of needle - I crochet too, they weren't wrong in calling it a needle. I also think they were referring to the length of the needle and not the hook on the end - I can picture it in my head but I don't think I can describe it well. 4a hair also does not have to be clearly defined - if you have a round coil pattern, you have a curl pattern. I haven't seen your hair but by your description I would call you 4a. Whether your hair looks defined and clumps together depends on texture/density.

Just for the record, here's a pic of my hair. I did pick it out a little bit, but that did not change the texture, only made it a more even looking puff. Had I done nothing, it would look the same, just a little more compact and crooked. It is also pictured upthread, in twists.



And regarding the crochet hook, they were using it as a guide for circumference, which is a huge factor in hair-typing. You can't just say crochet hook, and expect everyone to know which size, you know? When you say pen-spring, or straw those are pretty standard. But crochet hook is not. I think this a key point, so, it's not really over-thinking.

An illustration...



Any old way, I have some pen-spring coil, no definition-even-with-product, kinky, motherland, super-shrinking, gravity-mocking, true afro hair.

Hi Kinky Rhonnie...thanks for the shout out. Hmmm... I'm not sure I've ever posted on this board before, but I'm going to do so now to clear up misinformation about what we're calling cNapp hair and how that all got started.

Several years ago now, someone on Nappturality started a thread asking people to post pics of their naturally coily/curly, freshly washed product-free hair. Here's an example I Don't Know How Successful This Will Be...

That thread went so well that AuNappturale started a thread asking people to post pics of their non coily, non clumping, non curly hair. That thread exploded and people with hair like AuNapp such as myself posted up a storm.


My hair freshly washed with no product and no manipulation.

People like us have no curl or wave, or coil definition whatsoever. It's just one massive puffy, poof of hair that looks like a soft Cloud or Cotton.

Rather than have to explain this all the time, we decided we wanted a nickname. Taneska came up with the term cNapp (as in cottony or cloud-like naps). It stuck and that's how the term cNapp was born. So it always boggles my mind when people ask "Does cNapp hair exist?" That's a ridiculous to me because all we did was take people with hair that have a certain characteristic and give it a nickname. So of course it EXISTS!

Most of us identify our hair as 4B. The term cNapp is just a short cut nickname that lumps all the characteristics together. If you say you're a cNapp we automatically know that means you have no curl/wave/coil definition.

It doesn't mean your individual strands don't coil or curl...it just means they don't get together to show themselves off. Our hair is more about randomness of how it coils, loops and bends. My individual strands do all of this and sometimes you can find all characteristics on ONE strand!

From our perspective, the only defining characterics of cNapp hair is the that it is patternless and has no overall definition. It has nothing to do with coil or curl size. It can have any size coils...if you have any at all. It can be thin, medium or coarse (strand size). You can have dense or thin hair (number of hairs on your head). You can have a lot of shrinkage or no shrinkage. If you have any or all of this...then you are a cNapp.

NOT ABSOLUTE
Some people have a combination of this and 4A hair as well and still identify with cNapp hair because it's the predominant texture. OR they have hair that may define itself a little but not enough for them to manage it as 4A hair with curl definition.

-----------------------
The connection to my blog Nappturology 101 (nappyme.wordpress.com)
Nappturology 101 is my blog. Once people started identifying themselves as cNapp, I decided to host a page on my blog where people could list their albums and we could have ONE place where people could go and get links to those albums. That's this link: cNapp Albums « Nappturology 101 and to this day it gets over 300 hits per day. It's a very popular resource for people with cNapp hair. Think I need to update some of those links though...

Unfortunately, calling ourselves cNapps on NP created a ridiculous controversy and for brief moment the owner of NP banned cNapp conversations saying it was too devisive. But once she understood that it was JUST a nickname to short cut having to spell out all the characteristics of our hair she allowed cNapp conversations on her board.

But that controversy for a loooong time was just below the surface and that was enough for me to start my own board so that folks with hair like us could have our own little corner of the internet where we could discuss our hair without pissing other people off.

Turns out us starting our own board (cNappymeNow.com) pissed people off ANYWAY...so oh well.

As far as what this 4C hair is... I haven't a clue. It is NOT cNapp hair because like I said MOST of us identify with 4B.

Now folks can debate cNapp hair all they want, but at the end of the day, it's what WE say it is and that's all that matters. Either you identify with it or you don't. If you have it, you usually know it.

Anyhoo... I've written a book but I've just seen one too many mentions of cNapp hair where the facts aren't correct.

Hope this sets the record straight.

Take care,
~Nappyme

after reading through this thread I must say I am informed, but now confused as to what to identify this mass on my head as. When I first started taking care of my hair it looked kind of like this:



no definition, kind of fluffy/cloud- like. As time went on it turned into this:



I figured I was a 4b with a weird patch of 3c at my nape but after reading about pen spring sized curls I'm going to say 4a/b? Also, to add my 2 cents I think 4b and 4a are usually categorized incorrectly. The definitions I have seen over the few years for 4b are interchangeable with what I've seen 4c described as. The 4c I'm hearing about has been described as NO distinct curl pattern, regardless of how hard you try to manipulate it. It is often described as a more challenging version of 4b. I've heard people also describe 4b as being hard to manipulate into having or maintaining a curl pattern because it reverts back to its original state. However I've read in some forums
that 4b appears to have no curl pattern, but up close there are very tiny curls as opposed to 4c just being a fluff.