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Old 03-29-2010, 03:25 PM   #1
 
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Default POLL: Ingredients and Order

I have spoken with people who feel that the ingredients in a product are more important than the order they appear on the label.

What are your thoughts?
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:50 PM   #2
 
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I agree
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:53 PM   #3
 
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I think they're both important, but I won't care what order ingredients are in if they are things I won't use at all. With some, I am concerned with how far down they fall on the ingredient list. In the rare case when I will us a water soluble cone, I won't buy a product if it is too near the top of the ingredient list. It has to be at least 7th. For proteins, they usually need to be closer to the top.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:26 PM   #4
 
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For some reason, the actual poll did not show up! Anyway, I would love your feedback to the question. The poll was going to state:

*Ingredients are more important
*Order of appearance is more important
*Both are important
*Would not use if the product had a foul scent!

Thanks!
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Old 03-29-2010, 05:43 PM   #5
 
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The order in which they appear give you an idea as to how much of it is in the product. More natural ingredients to the forefront is a positive sign, vs. if you're PS and see hydrolyzed collagen as the second ingredient--bad sign.

So its both. Most important thing is to read the label.
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Old 03-29-2010, 07:15 PM   #6
 
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I think it's a combination. Ingredients are important, but order can be important for me as well. Some conditioners have great things in them - but they're all below fragrance, which means there's barely any in the product and generally won't make any difference for me.

And as far as scent goes - depends on how foul it is. Pretty much so long as it doesn't give me a headache, I'll use it at least a second time. :-)
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:04 PM   #7
 
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I have to say that the ingredients are more important. Why? Because I've noticed that some companies invert and sometimes mix up the order of their ingredients. For example, Giovanni. I love their Smooth as Silk conditioner but there is no way in hellz that Rosemary extract, valencia orange extract, mango extract, and lemongrass extracts are the most prominent ingredients in that bottle. I'm willing to bet money that the most prominent ingredients are the Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Centrimonium Bromide, and Glycerin, but they occur WAY down on the list.
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Old 03-30-2010, 08:53 AM   #8
 
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Ingredients and their order are both important. I've been searching for a replacement for LA Looks Sport gel (I am so paranoid that they will stop making it someday!) for years. I've found some generic brands with the same ingredients but in a different order and they do not work the same! Sometimes the ingredients are identical but that doesn't mean the percentages are the same, so they still don't work the same.

And if something doesn't have a smell I like, I won't buy it. So that's important to me too.
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Old 03-30-2010, 10:21 AM   #9
 
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Hi Aimward!

I read somewhere that if the extracts or herbs are in the water portion, they have to be listed first. I think I was on LHCF.com when I read that. Its really misleading huh!

I think that both ingredients and order are important. I can handle keratin protein, but not on a regular basis if it is at the top of the list!

D
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Old 03-30-2010, 04:40 PM   #10
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicana View Post
Hi Aimward!

I read somewhere that if the extracts or herbs are in the water portion, they have to be listed first. I think I was on LHCF.com when I read that. Its really misleading huh!


D
Very confusing and misleading.
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Old 03-30-2010, 06:21 PM   #11
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepcurlygurl View Post
Ingredients and their order are both important. I've been searching for a replacement for LA Looks Sport gel (I am so paranoid that they will stop making it someday!) for years. I've found some generic brands with the same ingredients but in a different order and they do not work the same! Sometimes the ingredients are identical but that doesn't mean the percentages are the same, so they still don't work the same.

And if something doesn't have a smell I like, I won't buy it. So that's important to me too.
I'm in the same situation! But I'm stumped by one situation: I bought a Renpure conditioner with behentrimonium methosulfate as the second ingredient. This ingredient, (when second on the list) keeps my hair moisturized. So, I thought, "Wow! Finally, I found a good conditioner that is not expensive. After I used it, my hair was dry. The order was what I wanted, but I have no idea why the conditioner didn't work. The two conclusion that I came up with are: quality control and mislabeling (not being truthful).
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:28 AM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicana View Post
Hi Aimward!

I read somewhere that if the extracts or herbs are in the water portion, they have to be listed first. I think I was on LHCF.com when I read that. Its really misleading huh!

I think that both ingredients and order are important. I can handle keratin protein, but not on a regular basis if it is at the top of the list!

D
I've read this as well, and it makes sense to a point. However, while most of the time it's made plain that these extracts are infusions, not every brand seems to say so. Does anyone know if there is any legal requirements for ingredient lists at all, or if we are all at the mercy of a company's honesty? I vaguely remember a bru-ha-ha over Deva's incorrect labelling of one of their conditioners which suggests to me that a company doesn't have to be very specific or even truthful at all.
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:41 AM   #13
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddityofwings View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicana View Post
Hi Aimward!

I read somewhere that if the extracts or herbs are in the water portion, they have to be listed first. I think I was on LHCF.com when I read that. Its really misleading huh!

I think that both ingredients and order are important. I can handle keratin protein, but not on a regular basis if it is at the top of the list!

D
I've read this as well, and it makes sense to a point. However, while most of the time it's made plain that these extracts are infusions, not every brand seems to say so. Does anyone know if there is any legal requirements for ingredient lists at all, or if we are all at the mercy of a company's honesty? I vaguely remember a bru-ha-ha over Deva's incorrect labelling of one of their conditioners which suggests to me that a company doesn't have to be very specific or even truthful at all.

Yes, there are legal requirements. Ingredients are listed in order by WEIGHT. So if a liquid extract is being used (extracts are standardized) it is going to constitute more of the weight of the total product and will be listed higher in the ingredients. If a powdered extract is used it will be listed near the end because it will comprise a significantly lower percentage of the total weight. This does not mean that you are getting any less benefit. It is simply a matter of which form of the extract you are using.

Herbal infusions are not the same as extracts. Extracts are very, very concentrated and much more potent. Also, they will contain all components of the herb/fruit where as (aqueous) herbal infusions will only contain the water soluble elements of the herb.

Now, the following statements are based on my opinion only so take it with a grain of salt: The "top 5" ingredients rule that I've seen discussed can be a good guideline, but that does not necessarily mean that anything below the top 5 isn't going to have an effect. I would think this rule would be most applicable to drugstore/big box brands. Salon/boutique brands tend to use more quality ingredients and less "fillers." I call chemicals that are used simply to enhance the look or feel of the product "fillers" because they aren't providing any other benefit. By no means is this a technical term used in the industry and it's my opinion only.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:18 AM   #14
 
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runnerchicki:

So is weight the same as predominance according to the legal requirements?
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:53 AM   #15
 
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Both are important. Certain ingredients I avoid, so it's important they're not on there. However, too much or not enough of an ingredient can effect it's performance when formulated with other ingredients.
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Old 03-31-2010, 12:23 PM   #16
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatcurls View Post
runnerchicki:

So is weight the same as predominance according to the legal requirements?
Let me clarify because I didn't explain very well: Legal requirements are that ingredients are listed in order of highest percentage to lowest percentage by weight. Meaning the total weight of the finished product.

The reason that confusion exists is because the form of a raw material used will affect actual concentration of actives which will affect the performance of the final product because they are not identical in activity, although they will be listed exactly the same on a label. Using a common item, kool-aid: water,sugar,artificial flavoring. Let's say we use 1g of flavoring, 4g of sugar, and 45g of water for a final weight of 50g. The ingredients would be: water, sugar, artificial flavoring. Let's say we use 1g of flavoring to 12g of sugar to 37g of water: the label says the same thing even though there is 3x the sugar in the product. In fact, I could put 24g of sugar in there and you would probably not be able to see any difference, and the label would be exactly the same. But if you tasted it, it would definitely be noticeable.

This is why reading labels can be confusing and SEEMS misleading. Companies have to disclose their ingredients, but there can be major variations in the actual concentrations without the consumer being able to really tell. So what has happened is that there are standards for regulated products, so at least when you are comparing labels you are comparing apples to apples in most cases. As you can see from my example, there is still a lot of room for variation. Which is why most salon/boutique brands seem to perform better than their generic counterparts. They may appear to be exactly the same, but who knows really?

That was by no means a perfect explanation, but I hope it was understandable and helpful.
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Old 03-31-2010, 02:29 PM   #17
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerchicki View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatcurls View Post
runnerchicki:

So is weight the same as predominance according to the legal requirements?
Let me clarify because I didn't explain very well: Legal requirements are that ingredients are listed in order of highest percentage to lowest percentage by weight. Meaning the total weight of the finished product.

The reason that confusion exists is because the form of a raw material used will affect actual concentration of actives which will affect the performance of the final product because they are not identical in activity, although they will be listed exactly the same on a label. Using a common item, kool-aid: water,sugar,artificial flavoring. Let's say we use 1g of flavoring, 4g of sugar, and 45g of water for a final weight of 50g. The ingredients would be: water, sugar, artificial flavoring. Let's say we use 1g of flavoring to 12g of sugar to 37g of water: the label says the same thing even though there is 3x the sugar in the product. In fact, I could put 24g of sugar in there and you would probably not be able to see any difference, and the label would be exactly the same. But if you tasted it, it would definitely be noticeable.

This is why reading labels can be confusing and SEEMS misleading. Companies have to disclose their ingredients, but there can be major variations in the actual concentrations without the consumer being able to really tell. So what has happened is that there are standards for regulated products, so at least when you are comparing labels you are comparing apples to apples in most cases. As you can see from my example, there is still a lot of room for variation. Which is why most salon/boutique brands seem to perform better than their generic counterparts. They may appear to be exactly the same, but who knows really?

That was by no means a perfect explanation, but I hope it was understandable and helpful.
Makes sense to me - and explains why products with almost identical ingredient lists can act so very differently!

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Old 03-31-2010, 07:45 PM   #18
 
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Thank you, runnerchicki! Now I understand why the Renpure and some other products with the same ingredients did not work for me. I can also understand how some people (me as an example) could by de facto become a borderline PJ.
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Old 03-31-2010, 08:33 PM   #19
 
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That clears up alot of my questions rc...thanks! IMHO, I believe both ingredients and order of, are important. At no time will I use a product that smells bad...yuk! I recently purchased a conditioner that I normally love, but with a new choice of fragrance. I hated it and dumped the whole new unused bottle. I didn't even want to smell it on anyone elses hair...lol
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:39 AM   #20
 
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Ingredients are most important, that is why I LOVE Curl Junkie. And Marsha is the best at taking care of her customers!


If anything has a foul smell I WILL NOT use it! There are several products I won't use due to the strong smell, Curls Rock is one of them and a couple of the deva curl products also fall into that category for me. I don't like feeling like I am putting on products that smell like household cleaners or give me headaches b/c they are so strong and the smell lingers forever!

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