More "salon saga".

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I went to get my hair colored from my Deva stylist on Friday. Because I dont like the Deva line, except for the foam, I brought some of my own stuff, and we discussed it. She looked at the Shea Moisture Retention shampoo, and used that, which I appreciated; and was surprised at how much it lathered for a non-sulfate shampoo. My conditioner is Cure Care, and she looked at the ingredients, pointed out that "alcohol" was the second ingredient (Cetyl alcohol, which I understand is a moisturizing alcohol). Interestingly, when I got home, I checked the ingredients in the Deva conditioner. Sure enough, Cetyl alcohol was the second ingredient in Curl One. Comments?
Well, I know I've had to educate a stylist or two in my life.

Clearly she doesn't know or has forgotten which alcohol is good and which is bad. Maybe she just missed the "cetyl" on there. Who knows.

Either way, even the most educated stylist hasn't been working and experimenting with your hair as you have, so your information is going to be equally as significant!!
2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
Seal - MO or Jojoba
DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
Anyone affiliated with a product will do or say whatever markets their own line. *sigh*
3B, fine, normal to low porosity
Modified CG since June 2010
HGs: FSG, anything with glycerin, Tresemme Naturals conditioner, Curls Like Us cloths, satin pillowcases.
Jas and Mhen both make good points. If you care to, you could call her at the salon, let her know you like how your hair turned out (if that's the case), and then mention casually, in a "BTW" sense, that the alcohol in your conditioner, the 2nd ingredient she mentioned, is also the 2nd ingredient in the Deva OneC. Just thought she should know.
That's me with FSG as my styler!!

3b. fine & thick, coarse, dry, medium porosity. Sucks up product and loves ACVs! FSG is my HG!

Currently using:
Low Poo: TJ's Refresh No Poo: CoWash w/VO-5; Sonoma Soap Company sulfate-free poo
RO: Yes to Cuc; SSC Lavender Condish; Sally GVP LI: Donna Marie Miracle D&C
Style: FSG w/Aussie Instant Freeze & CIAB
When I brought in my products and the clips, I said to her that I didnt want her to feel I was telling her how to do her job ( I was very polite). She was also very polite but said that WAS kind of how she felt. So (sigh) I dont feel I can point out anything. I think it is a rare stylist that might understand how committed we are to our curls, finding the right products - and that occasionally, we might know a thing or two that they dont know. Hello, stydlists out there? comments?
Myrna, sorry it took so long for my reply. If you don't mind, I'll try to answer both threads that you requested stylist input here.
I do not mind at all, one bit, not even alittle, clients who bring in there own products. This is never ever a problem.
That being said, I LOVE the Deva line!! I have huge success, tons of clients, everything I need out of a haircare line, to use at home, and at the shop for all different kinds of curls.
While I hear and listen to each and every one of your complaints and concerns about the products, I do always feel if I could reach through the computer and teach you how to use it,for your paticular hair type, you would love it too
All of my education, study and practice has come through Devachan, as the founder of the curly girl method, cutting, color, and products.
Not because I am trying to push anything on you, but because I Love curlies, and I want you to love being a curly too, and after 30 plus years in this business I have found what I have been looking for, not only for my own hair but for many.
I am commited to my clients and there concerns, try my best to answer there questions. I am not a cosmetic chemist and may not be able to discuss every ingreadient in every other product out there.
I will always do what the client perfers, and use what you want me to use, and try to do what you want me to do. I will listen and care and try to help any and every way I can. But when asked my opinion, I will share what I think from my experience.
AND that's O.K.
Curly stylists offer lots of things. Cut, color, styling tecniques, products, knowledge, care and understanding. You choose what you come to us for and whether or not it is worth it for you. It is ultimately your choice as to what you want done to your hair and who you go to.
Oh, I sooo hope this doesn't come across as defensive, or wrong in some way. I really really really want to be helpful in your search, and help curlies with their hair. It is my love and passion. But I also want to help you understand your stylist. We are not the dumb, money hungry, uncaring, product pushing people some can make us out to be.
I hope this helps in some way shape or form, and answers some of your questions, and bridges a gap between clients and stylists. <3 <3 <3
testimony777 likes this.
3a/3b coarse and thick.....big and red

Advanced Deva inspired Stylist
In any profession, there are a number who stand head and shoulders above the rest, a number who have no business being there and a number who are in the middle of those two extremes. Thank you, bigredapmi, for being one of the "good guys." I wish all stylists had your insights and motives. I also have a great stylist but I had to kiss a lot of frogs first.
3B, fine, normal to low porosity
Modified CG since June 2010
HGs: FSG, anything with glycerin, Tresemme Naturals conditioner, Curls Like Us cloths, satin pillowcases.
Melissa, you are a peach, and you dont come off defensive at all. In fact, I want you to move here to Wisconsin so you can do my hair... I know you are probably great at what you do.

I am not really griping about my salon experience, I just dont know yet the boundaries of the woman who is doing my hair..and, she (Kari) is going on maternity leave, so another stylist will be doing my hair for a while, Heather. I am just used to liking my hair to feel a certain way, and loading it up with products - of any kind - makes my hair feel like cotton candy or steel wool. I would like to know how to approach the stylist who will be doing my hair in the absence of the one going on maternity leave. Heather - that is the other stylist- did my hair once before. I dont want to come off like I am telling her how to do her job. Also, I now use CHS roller jaw clips, and they are so wonderful for me; make my styling time way faster, I get great volume, etc. I dont know how to approach that issue either. But, your feedback is great, coming from you as a professional, and I always appreciate it.
Bigred, your presence here on the board and your insight is invaluable. We're very lucky to have you.
r
The thing I think Myrna - who can correct me if I'm wrong - is struggling with, is the same thing alot of us struggle with, in that we like the Deva method of cutting and coloring, but we personally don't care for the Deva line of products. For whatever reason, our hair does not react to them, our hair has reacted and responded to something else.
I know you as a stylist have said you're ok with that, and that's great because your clients probably appreciate having alternatives. Myrna's experience at Devachan seems to be that, while her stylist was willing to use what Myrna brought in, she didn't seem completely open-minded about it. So Myrna is sharing that experience here with us.

What we're all wondering is, how to handle a stylist who is defensive about a client (and by extension, any of us) who doesn't want to use the salon's main line of product (Deva or otherwise). Myrna's stylist told her she "kind of felt" as if Myrna was telling her her job. That's kind of disappointing to hear. I would prefer my stylist to be more open to having an educated client, a client who's invested in her own curly hair care, than one who blindly does whatever the stylist says and uses whatever the stylist gives her. Otherwise, why is the stylist talking while I'm in her chair? The stylist spends half the time I'm in her chair "educating" me about her salon's line of product, yet she doesn't want me to be educated? Or is that not an effort at education, but a sales pitch?
It seems that some stylists don't want educated clients, they want clients that just do what they tell us to do. And aren't smart enough to branch out, read ingredients, and figure out for ourselves what works best for our curls.

I've had similar experiences to Myrna's, you see. And I really want to go to the Devachan salon in Los Angeles that Myrna is going to now, but I have some reservations because I do not like the Deva line, and I don't want it forced on me, and I don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable if I refuse to use it.
My stylist now does an ok job if cutting my curls, she's Deva "trained" and she loves the line but understands that I don't, and will use whatever I want on my hair. I wish she were a little more creative in her technique, but she's not a bad stylist. I was hoping to go to Devachan for a rockin' haircut, but the whole experience Myrna describes scares me a bit.

Red, can you help us understand why a stylist would make a client feel that uncomfortable? Because if I were in Myrna's place, paying that much money for their services - I know they are not cheap, and in this economy it would be alot to fork over to get cut and colored at Devachan - I would seriously think of not going back.
I know I'd definitely not go back to that particular stylist.
That's me with FSG as my styler!!

3b. fine & thick, coarse, dry, medium porosity. Sucks up product and loves ACVs! FSG is my HG!

Currently using:
Low Poo: TJ's Refresh No Poo: CoWash w/VO-5; Sonoma Soap Company sulfate-free poo
RO: Yes to Cuc; SSC Lavender Condish; Sally GVP LI: Donna Marie Miracle D&C
Style: FSG w/Aussie Instant Freeze & CIAB
HI, Auntie, first, I am in Wisconsin, and I go to a salon who among other things does Deva cuts and styling. So, you will not have my experience, as you are in LA. I agree with how you paraphrased my experience and feelings; and yes, I agree, I love the cut (BTW, I went in Fri for a cut and a color, and she told me I did not need a cut, and explained why. I liked that - did not just take my money and say thank you). She also said my hair was in very good shape; and seemed to like my shampoo, which is the SM retention.
Keep in mind that at my previous salon, I would bring my styling products, and when my hair was colored (not cut) the stylist was perfectly comfortable for me to do my own styling, and had no diffuser, etc etc - when I got it cut and colored, the stylist who did the cutting would style me, and I never liked her products. She did not like conditioner so did not use it on me. So, by comparison, I feel it is like the difference between a diner and fine dining. I am not complaining about the new salon, or the stylist. But you are spot on, Auntie: I would ideally like MY shampoo, my conditioner, my styling products. I wish I loved the Deva line but I dont, and part of that is that I shampoo daily and that will not change. I get good results with way cheaper products. So, I guess when you go out to eat, you dont bring your own eggs - unless the chef is a good friend and doesnt mind.
Bigred, your presence here on the board and your insight is invaluable. We're very lucky to have you.
r
The thing I think Myrna - who can correct me if I'm wrong - is struggling with, is the same thing alot of us struggle with, in that we like the Deva method of cutting and coloring, but we personally don't care for the Deva line of products. For whatever reason, our hair does not react to them, our hair has reacted and responded to something else.
I know you as a stylist have said you're ok with that, and that's great because your clients probably appreciate having alternatives. Myrna's experience at Devachan seems to be that, while her stylist was willing to use what Myrna brought in, she didn't seem completely open-minded about it. So Myrna is sharing that experience here with us.

What we're all wondering is, how to handle a stylist who is defensive about a client (and by extension, any of us) who doesn't want to use the salon's main line of product (Deva or otherwise). Myrna's stylist told her she "kind of felt" as if Myrna was telling her her job. That's kind of disappointing to hear. I would prefer my stylist to be more open to having an educated client, a client who's invested in her own curly hair care, than one who blindly does whatever the stylist says and uses whatever the stylist gives her. Otherwise, why is the stylist talking while I'm in her chair? The stylist spends half the time I'm in her chair "educating" me about her salon's line of product, yet she doesn't want me to be educated? Or is that not an effort at education, but a sales pitch?
It seems that some stylists don't want educated clients, they want clients that just do what they tell us to do. And aren't smart enough to branch out, read ingredients, and figure out for ourselves what works best for our curls.

I've had similar experiences to Myrna's, you see. And I really want to go to the Devachan salon in Los Angeles that Myrna is going to now, but I have some reservations because I do not like the Deva line, and I don't want it forced on me, and I don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable if I refuse to use it.
My stylist now does an ok job if cutting my curls, she's Deva "trained" and she loves the line but understands that I don't, and will use whatever I want on my hair. I wish she were a little more creative in her technique, but she's not a bad stylist. I was hoping to go to Devachan for a rockin' haircut, but the whole experience Myrna describes scares me a bit.

Red, can you help us understand why a stylist would make a client feel that uncomfortable? Because if I were in Myrna's place, paying that much money for their services - I know they are not cheap, and in this economy it would be alot to fork over to get cut and colored at Devachan - I would seriously think of not going back.
I know I'd definitely not go back to that particular stylist.
Originally Posted by Auntie Bubbs

Whew!! I'm so glad it came across well, thank you for understanding. Sometimes it can be hard to get ideas across on the computer.
So, first off the most any stylists get for selling product is 10 %. I promise you I am not working me bum off for $1.80. If I am telling you about my product line, it's because I personally love it. If you don't, that's ok too You can use the information and tecnique at home with the products of your choice. So, what I want you to know and understand is don't feel funny or bad that you are using other product, bring it in, we will play. See I don't think the stylist was being defensive, I just think she was sharing what she knows and loves because she is a deva stylist. Can it go both ways? We are both educated in hair, you yours and me, many, and we are both trying to share our information to help each other. If you ask a deva stylist a hair question, she is going to give you a deva hair answer.
Don't feel uncomfortable, try to understand, please?
If you feel the stylist is going out of her way to make you feel uncomfortable or dismisses you completely, then by all means, bye bye.
Otherwise, can you try to understand her point of view, meet her half way, tell her how much you love her cut and color ( she'll love you for that) because that's her other passion, but will you please use this instead. Keep her focus on her positive performance and I am sure she'll do anything for you.
3a/3b coarse and thick.....big and red

Advanced Deva inspired Stylist
Myrna, I think I am confusing you with someone else with a similar screenname who is going to the Devachan that just opened here in LA. Sorry about that.
Otherwise everything else is accurate

I get what you mean though. And I like the analogy about going out to eat and bringing your own eggs. That's a good way to put it. Of course you wouldn't do that - though I have no qualms about picking a server's brains about how something is prepared. LOL I'm a chef though so I can be kind of persistent about wanting to know how something is prepared. I try not to be obnoxious; it's more, if I really like a dish I've ordered, I want to know about it's preparation so I can try to replicate it. But I wouldn't bring my own ingredients and tell the kitchen "I don't like your produce, it's not organic, use mine instead"! That would too much.

Red, I think the problem is that you're a unique stylist that most of us would love to duplicate and have in our own salons Instead we do get stylists who might make us feel uncomfortable when we share our own knowledge. Or bring our own products, or show our enthusiasm. I personally have had stylists make me feel like I am "showing off" when I share how much I know or how invested I am in my curl care. If I had a stylist tell me that I am "sort of telling them their job" when what I really am trying to do is just make sure the product I want used is used (because I do have good reasons for wanting it used), that makes me wary of that stylist.
I once had a stylist turn me blond instead if just a lighter shade of brunette like I had asked, and got mad when I questioned her on what she was doing because I could tell it wasn't right. She had to fix it, but believe me, I did not go back to her again.

The problem for me isn't that I think the stylist is gung-ho to earn her commission on selling the product, it's that the stylist just won't listen to what I want. Out of stubbornness or whatever. And no amount of "trying to understand" seems to fix that. Where is the give and take? If I'm paying for a service, why is it that I am the one doing all the understanding? Even "focusing on the positive," (which means biting my tongue at half the stuff that comes out of a stylist's mouth) I can't tell you how often I kind of just tolerate the salon experience/stylist because I can't find anything better.

I'm asking because you seem to be the only stylist I've ever talked to that understands the client's perspective, and I know you must have a network of stylists that you talk to. I'm hoping you can give the stylists' perspective on this, from your network. Thanks.
That's me with FSG as my styler!!

3b. fine & thick, coarse, dry, medium porosity. Sucks up product and loves ACVs! FSG is my HG!

Currently using:
Low Poo: TJ's Refresh No Poo: CoWash w/VO-5; Sonoma Soap Company sulfate-free poo
RO: Yes to Cuc; SSC Lavender Condish; Sally GVP LI: Donna Marie Miracle D&C
Style: FSG w/Aussie Instant Freeze & CIAB

Last edited by Auntie Bubbs; 06-18-2012 at 05:10 PM.
She is great, isnt she, Auntie? Melissa you are terrific. I havent had bad experiences with stylists in general; I had stylists who were kind of "stuck", not continuing with their learning, etc; and I have had stylists load me up with product. I dont like that and I have no problem speaking up. I know I have mentioned this site to several stylists - including my Deva stylists - and so far, none have come back and said, You know, that naturallycurly.com is really a great site!

That would make me happy.
"If I'm paying for a service, why is it that I am the one doing all the understanding? Even "focusing on the positive," (which means biting my tongue at half the stuff that comes out of a stylist's mouth) I can't tell you how often I kind of just tolerate the salon experience/stylist because I can't find anything better."

This is so often my experience as well, and it's truly tiresome.

I get around the products issue because I'm not fully CG, and I don't get my hair styled at the salon. Yet, I know I'm compromising in order to get a good cut.

I think that stylist/client communication is a far more complicated interaction than it's given credit for. And because of that, I wonder, what are stylists really taught about interacting with their clients?

Dogs and nature abhor a vacuum.
http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
HI, Auntie, first, I am in Wisconsin, and I go to a salon who among other things does Deva cuts and styling.
Originally Posted by Myrna
Hi Myrna, I'm in Wisconsin too - which salon do you go to and which stylist would you recommend? Thanks!
Hi, CurlyMJ, I am in the Madison/Middleton area, but I work in Sun Prairie and I go to Hair Excellence. Kari is my current stylist, and Heather has done my hair as well. Where in Wisconsin are you?

Claudine, if doctors, medical students, are not taught to communicate with their patients, do you think stylists are? Im not being difficult, but as an allied health professional, I know doctors SHOULD learn to communicate with patients but there are some real horror stories out there. So, stylists are probably NOT taught to communicate with their clients. In fact, I was once at a beauty school getting a pedicure, which should be a relaxing experience, no? the young woman working on my feet began to tell me how she was molested as a child. Now, I am a therapist, I hear these stories every day, but I dont want to hear them when I am being pampered. I had to let her supervisor know that she needed to refer this young woman to an employee assistance program for her emotional issues. So no. They dont.
How well I know how poorly doctors communicate! I almost always refuse interviews with doctors, because they truly can't talk to other people, and it's not because of their superior minds. (Lawyers I love to interview, because they talk for a living, and they LOVE the sound of their own voices.)

I guess I just thought that "client care" would be an integral part of a stylists' training. Since I too have been told far more than I wanted to hear by various beauty professionals (want to donate your eggs, anyone? I learned all about it, quite unwillingly), I can't help but agree.

brp, can we be wrong?

Dogs and nature abhor a vacuum.
http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
"If I'm paying for a service, why is it that I am the one doing all the understanding? Even "focusing on the positive," (which means biting my tongue at half the stuff that comes out of a stylist's mouth) I can't tell you how often I kind of just tolerate the salon experience/stylist because I can't find anything better."

This is so often my experience as well, and it's truly tiresome.

I get around the products issue because I'm not fully CG, and I don't get my hair styled at the salon. Yet, I know I'm compromising in order to get a good cut.

I think that stylist/client communication is a far more complicated interaction than it's given credit for. And because of that, I wonder, what are stylists really taught about interacting with their clients?
Originally Posted by claudine19
+1 to this! I've had so many times when I've known what I wanted to tell my stylist, but didn't because I didn't know how she'd take it! But like its been said before, I'm paying for a service, and I want it done right... Ive been going to the same hairdresser for years, and I trust her, but feel like she could listen to me more-- like when I tell her what I want done, to not make me feel silly if what I say doesn't make a whole lot of sense to her, and try to understand what it is I'm asking instead of brushing it off.
curl type: 2c/3a
porosity: low
hair strand width: medium
density: thick
elasticity: low-normal
Shoulder length


Ready to get back on the CG bandwagon!
I have to give Auntie Bubbs credit for that first paragraph --- I was quoting her.

Dogs and nature abhor a vacuum.
http://geaugadoggy.wordpress.com
I didn't see that; +1 to auntie bubbs, too
curl type: 2c/3a
porosity: low
hair strand width: medium
density: thick
elasticity: low-normal
Shoulder length


Ready to get back on the CG bandwagon!

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