Omg the tangles!

Like Tree4Likes

It could also be that you have been using too much protein. Most of your products in your siggy have it! I'm more on the side of the protein sensitive but I can use small doses of protein as long as I use protein free stuff the majority of the time.

My hair doesn't seem to like protein in curl enhancers but doesn't really mind it in gels. It also doesn't like it in a low poo (I hated CJ Gentle Shampoo!) but likes it in some conditioners (CJ).
Coarse texture, normal-high porosity, normal elasticity (Komaza Care), very weak waves
cleanser: Redken Fresh Curls Shampoo, CJ Daily Fix

rinse out: CJ Beauticurls, CJ A&OO, CJ Smoothing

jellies/creams: Mop C, KCCC, SCE FSG
gels: CJ CQ, BRHG

I had my hair analyzed two years ago. It surprised me, the results; I had always thought it was very porous.

What's the floaty test?

My hair LITERALLY absorbed all that. So what does that mean? Hungry how?

Are you saying with cones I never would have been able to "feed" it? Wasn't sure what you meant. I don't use cones except a couple water-soluble ones intermittently (dimethicone is it?)

I get it colored every so often with semi-permanent to cover the grays - I was using Redken Shades EQ but that has wheat so was going to switch to Paul Mitchell (I forget which)

I tried getting a water softener, but it made my hair BIZARRE (it was two christmases ago so it's vague) but I think it was like soggy seaweed? Though my water here is so hard, I do think I should do something - help??

But couldn't this all still be a protein issue??

You have got me so curious!

When is the last time you used protein in your hair?

It does seem like your hair is incredibly porous. I started to think this when you said it was slurping up KCKT...and then GVP Balm...But then when you said it drank in mayo, eggs, etc. ...WOW. (It's hungry too!)

Even with a "Prell" wash, I cannot imagine non-porous hair being that absorbent. When is the last time you did a "floaty" test?

If your hair was coated with cones, I don't think it would be able to suck in all that stuff. I think your hair would feel sticky; not to mention phenomenally greasy.

Do you color your hair? (I can't remember what you said about this, sorry)

Did you have your hair analyzed very recently?

Could it possibly be your water stripping every last bit of moisture from your scalp? I moved to AZ from SoCAL last June, and the difference in the water is remarkable. Whenever I hear anyone in AZ complaining about the "hard" water, I know for sure they've never lived in LA. The water back there feels like rinsing with sand compared to the water here, and I don't have a water softener. At some point, could your hair have been absorbing too much water, and the heaviness led to trouble?
Originally Posted by gardencurls
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
Did you say you use Re:Coil?

I wonder if mag sulfate, or whatever salt is in there, is a culprit in the breakage problem?

Those "beachy" sprays make my hair feel like its hair from something inorganic...like a stuffed animal.
3b/c, Coarse, Low Porosity, Desert Climate
CG since August 2011/Occasionally Modified since 2013
Favorites:KCKT/KCCC/CHS Curl Keeper/Camille Rose Curl Maker/
ORS Curls Unleased Second ChanceRefresher/
It's a 10 Leave-in/BRHG/
Jane Carter Nourish & Shine butter/
Ouidad Double-Detangler Comb
Wait, what are beachy sprays? I'm getting confused...

I no longer use re: coil, no - and I haven't for a while.
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
I had my hair analyzed two years ago. It surprised me, the results; I had always thought it was very porous.

The same thing happened with me. I had "assumed" it was porous, because it's dry and curly, but it turned out it's not...

What's the floaty test?

Put a little cutting of your hair in a glass of water and see if it sinks or floats

My hair LITERALLY absorbed all that. So what does that mean? Hungry how?

I was joking about the hungry because mayo & eggs are food...But - maybe your hair is absorbing vitamins? (I have no idea if this is even possible)

Are you saying with cones I never would have been able to "feed" it? Wasn't sure what you meant. I don't use cones except a couple water-soluble ones intermittently (dimethicone is it?)

Again, I don't know for sure, but I was saying it seems that your hair couldn't have sucked in all that oil if it was coated with silicones. I think the oil would slip off your hair and not get absorbed. Dimethicone isn't water soluble in the least, unless it's polyether-modified. It's like cellophane wrap.

I get it colored every so often with semi-permanent to cover the grays - I was using Redken Shades EQ but that has wheat so was going to switch to Paul Mitchell (I forget which)

Gray hair is more porous than pigmented hair. You probably had less grays two years ago when you had your hair analyzed. Does your semi-permanent have any lift at all, or does it coat your hair? Does it last only a couple of days? I think the longer it lasts, the more porous your hair must be. Does your coloring have ethanol (alcohol) in it?

I tried getting a water softener, but it made my hair BIZARRE (it was two christmases ago so it's vague) but I think it was like soggy seaweed? Though my water here is so hard, I do think I should do something - help??

I hate water softeners, too. My mother has one, and I can't stand even washing my hands at her house, because nothing seems to rinse.

But couldn't this all still be a protein issue??

It's weird, because what you describe makes it seem like your hair needs protein to build it up a bit so it's not so absorbent. Eggs and mayo are full of proteins and you said your hair felt better after you treated it with them. If protein was bothering your hair it would feel weird after soaking up all that protein. (I think?) Too much protein makes my hair feel like pliable wax.
3b/c, Coarse, Low Porosity, Desert Climate
CG since August 2011/Occasionally Modified since 2013
Favorites:KCKT/KCCC/CHS Curl Keeper/Camille Rose Curl Maker/
ORS Curls Unleased Second ChanceRefresher/
It's a 10 Leave-in/BRHG/
Jane Carter Nourish & Shine butter/
Ouidad Double-Detangler Comb
My hair ALWAYS feels better after using tons of protein, and yet it's exhibiting signs of protein overload - strawlike by end of day, brittle, shedding, tangles -

I don't know that egg and mayo/olive oil are the same *types* of proteins as what I may be reacting too, though - like the wheat and hydrolized kinds...
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
Wait, what are beachy sprays? I'm getting confused...

I no longer use re: coil, no - and I haven't for a while.
Originally Posted by LilaGirl
Sorry - they are sprays and stylers used to create what they call a "beachy" look. They contain a lot of sea salt, or mag sulfate, or dead sea salt, which makes fine and straight hair feel like it has more texture, and it can cause straight hair to have temporary curls.
3b/c, Coarse, Low Porosity, Desert Climate
CG since August 2011/Occasionally Modified since 2013
Favorites:KCKT/KCCC/CHS Curl Keeper/Camille Rose Curl Maker/
ORS Curls Unleased Second ChanceRefresher/
It's a 10 Leave-in/BRHG/
Jane Carter Nourish & Shine butter/
Ouidad Double-Detangler Comb
No - I don't use anything like that.

Wait, what are beachy sprays? I'm getting confused...

I no longer use re: coil, no - and I haven't for a while.
Originally Posted by LilaGirl
Sorry - they are sprays and stylers used to create what they call a "beachy" look. They contain a lot of sea salt, or mag sulfate, or dead sea salt, which makes fine and straight hair feel like it has more texture, and it can cause straight hair to have temporary curls.
Originally Posted by gardencurls
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
so this is interesting - with the floaty test, I took a section from the back of my hair which is very brittle (always has been - different text, different curls) and it's still floating though the more healthy part of my hair - front/middle is sinking a bit.

What does floating mean?
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
This is what someone wrote in that thread I posted earlier - and this is what got me eliminating all hydrolyzed stuff, but wondering about protein that's not hydrolyzed

"Hydrolyzed anything is usually a culprit for Protein sens. curlies. WHEAT proteins are very problematic. You will have to play around a bit unfortunately. That's how I discovered what Proteins my hair despises. Silk proteins are fine for me amino acids are also fine. Its the WHEAT that kills me instantly I can feel my hair turn to straw it's horrible. Soy protein gives me problems but it takes a few doses to build up so I just avoid that one as well. "
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
Maybe your hair needs milk protein or vegetable protein. I think they can be hydrolyzed for better absorption in hair, like they are for digestion. I think the heavier the protein, the harder it is on hair. Maybe gelatin would help!!

I have to go cook dinner - I'll be back!
3b/c, Coarse, Low Porosity, Desert Climate
CG since August 2011/Occasionally Modified since 2013
Favorites:KCKT/KCCC/CHS Curl Keeper/Camille Rose Curl Maker/
ORS Curls Unleased Second ChanceRefresher/
It's a 10 Leave-in/BRHG/
Jane Carter Nourish & Shine butter/
Ouidad Double-Detangler Comb
Well, of course eggs and mayo (which is just eggs and oil, I guess) have a lot of protein, so if your hair feels better after that, I still question the protein over-load... But then again idk.

Maybe you just don't have the balance right? Maybe you need a lot more moisture along with the protein? Add more oils in, perhaps cut back the protein a little.

Just curious - have you tried the gelatin PT?
What about humectants? I add honey and EVOO to my RO, and I leave GVPCB in my hair a lot, too.

Your hair is quite intriguing!! Lol!!
2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
Seal - MO or Jojoba
DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
Just curious - have you tried the gelatin PT?
Originally Posted by Jas76
I just asked her about gelatin as well. Great minds!

My grandmother used to swear by gelatin for her hair and nails. She used to drink it once a week or something like that. (Eeew.)

I remember one time she put it in my "cream rinse" to smooth out my hair, and I think it worked. (We're going back a long time here.)

What is the gelatin PT?
3b/c, Coarse, Low Porosity, Desert Climate
CG since August 2011/Occasionally Modified since 2013
Favorites:KCKT/KCCC/CHS Curl Keeper/Camille Rose Curl Maker/
ORS Curls Unleased Second ChanceRefresher/
It's a 10 Leave-in/BRHG/
Jane Carter Nourish & Shine butter/
Ouidad Double-Detangler Comb
AIgirl has a recipe on here that a lot of us use and tweak.

I use two packets of unflavored Knox gelatin, mix in some EVCO, a little epsom, and some ACV into super heated water - maybe 1/4 cup? Mix well, the put it on your hair, put a bag over it, apply heat (either the shower water on the bag or a heating pad), rinse. Do a DT or at least a rich RO after, plenty of LI (and some light oil for me) over that.

Gelatin does AMAZING things for my hair. I don't find it drying at all, but I think some do. (and I do follow mine with rich condish).

The more I think about it, the more I think it may not be the protein you are using as much as it is the moisture you AREN'T using.
2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
Seal - MO or Jojoba
DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
LilaGirl, supposedly when hair floats for a long time in water it has low porosity, but when it sinks right away it has high porosity. It sounds like your damaged ends have high porosity, (makes sense), but your hair naturally when not damaged, is low porosity.

...Which definitely complicates things when it comes to helping the dryness and breaking.

When my hair gets "crazy" like that I start heading for pure, undiluted oils. Jojoba is usually my favorite, but when I have the kind of breakage where I see a few centimeters of my hair breaking off and landing on my clothes or a table or something, I head for the coconut oil, coconut oil blends, and, believe it or not, Vaseline.

You could try ORS Coconut Oil Cream. Proclaim has a cream the has coconut oil and petrolatum. I haven't used this one, but my friend swears by it. (It's only $1.89 at Sally's too). Another "when all else fails" oldie but goodie is a Cholesterol treatment. I've been using Cholesterol creams since I was around 9. My neighbor use to put Wella Kolestrol in my hair every chance she got. She was big on cholesterol and Alberto VO5 hot oil treatments[/I], which I think are still around.

While you give your hair a rest from protein, inundate it with moisture, and see if that helps the tangles and cracking.
3b/c, Coarse, Low Porosity, Desert Climate
CG since August 2011/Occasionally Modified since 2013
Favorites:KCKT/KCCC/CHS Curl Keeper/Camille Rose Curl Maker/
ORS Curls Unleased Second ChanceRefresher/
It's a 10 Leave-in/BRHG/
Jane Carter Nourish & Shine butter/
Ouidad Double-Detangler Comb
I recently realized that I was COMPLETELY overproteining my hair (I think there's a thread on the "protein sensitive" board that I started with details), and after careful analysis of all the products I've used, realized that my hair pretty much hates any protein but keratin, and ESPECIALLY hates all grain-based protein. (I've had an actual keratin treatment that my hair thought was pretty much the Best. Thing. Ever. If it weren't for the formaldehyde and the cost, I would so keep doing it).

I've been cranking up the moisture big time on my hair and have been totaly protein-free for the past 2 weeks, but now I'm wondering if I might need another PT (I used GVP K-pak), as the super-softness I was originally getting with protein-free/super moisture is dissipating and a little more tangly/dry. I'm due for color next weekend anyway so I'll do a PT sometime early this week and see.

Never-ending experimentation!!
Mod CG since 5/10, 2b/3a, med width/density, low/med porosity, greying since 18, color over grey since 21

Hair hates: non-keratin protein, glycerin, sorbitol, agave, sulfates, polyquats, co-washing (flaky scalp), maybe aloe?
Hair loves: fewer/more natural ingredients, moisture

Scalp wash: Selsun Blue naturals or reg when desperate
Low poo: Giovanni TTTT
RO: SN - Strawberry, ES
LI: SNES
Style: HETT mousse, FSG if I make it, ??
DT: GVPCB
PT: GVPKP
I just want to be clear - my hair isn't breaking off, really. It's falling out. And it's only really doing that in the shower when I comb through it - it gets so unbearably tangly, that combing through the tangles (even though I do it super gently, one little section at a time) takes out a lot of hair.

Aside from that it is brittle and dry and frizzy.

I'm not feeling the gelatin for my hair. If it dries out for some, it likely will for me.

My chiropractor said I was reacting to wheat - but I took away the wheat and things only mildly improved.

Then I took away the BRHG and things improved a little. I added oils (happy scalp and yesterday's treatment) and things improved some more. My hair today is in a bun and I put oil in it last night (that it sucked up) and it's soft.

I'm really feeling like I need to back way off of protein.
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
Well, definitely give the major protein reduction a try, for sure!!

Falling out... Hmmm... You haven't recently had a baby have you??

Is your hair just shedding more than normal? Or is it really coming out in clumps?

Have you seen a Dr? Had your thyroid checked? All that?? I would say that should be an important next step. The dry and frizzy problem could be a separate issue to the hair loss. It's best to rule our any medical issues, for obvious reasons, so you might do that soon.
2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
Seal - MO or Jojoba
DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
Thyroid is fine. Wheat wasn't - so I eliminated wheat.

My daughter is 3 - and I stopped nursing her a year ago - so not really that.

It's shedding, yes, but not in clumps I don't think; in fact, it's not really coming out on me or anything else, just when I'm in the shower, trying to comb through it, I get this massive lump of hair on my wide-tooth comb. And when the plumber snaked my tub, it was INSANE the amount of hair!!! It feels thinner all over (not the volume I'm used to).

Well, definitely give the major protein reduction a try, for sure!!

Falling out... Hmmm... You haven't recently had a baby have you??

Is your hair just shedding more than normal? Or is it really coming out in clumps?

Have you seen a Dr? Had your thyroid checked? All that?? I would say that should be an important next step. The dry and frizzy problem could be a separate issue to the hair loss. It's best to rule our any medical issues, for obvious reasons, so you might do that soon.
Originally Posted by Jas76
3b/fine/normal porosity/normal elasticity

LOVES behentrimonium methosulfate
(don't ask me to pronounce that!)


Want to grow it long again!
And simply want to figure out this hair of mine!
Ok, well let me ask this - are you sure you are losing more than normal? Or is it just that it's so tangled none of it falls out during the day bc it's trapped in the tangles? And then in the shower it all comes out?

I pulled a MASSIVE hair clog out of my drain - it was RIDICULOUS. I mean, comical.

Maybe the hair loss isn't as bad as it seems, and it's only the tangles that make it appear that way??

That would certainly be a relief!

So you were tested for a wheat intolerance then? I must have missed that if you posted that already - sorry! Are you eliminating it in your diet too?
2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
Seal - MO or Jojoba
DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing

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