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-   -   Stylists or curly chemists, please, I have a cone question.. (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/154048-stylists-curly-chemists-please-i-have-cone-question.html)

Myrna 01-17-2013 04:22 PM

Stylists or curly chemists, please, I have a cone question..
 
So: If my conditioner ("if") has dimethiconol, and if I shampoo daily with a Shea Moisture shampoo, am I harming my hair? See, I have never been clear about this; because I "low poo" daily, am I removing the so called water insoluble cone??

NvmbrCurlss 01-17-2013 06:01 PM

I'm not a chemist, but I believe dimethiconol cannot be "dissolved" by the glucosides in SM...u would need a cleanser with coco betaine?

Myrna 01-17-2013 06:18 PM

I did that today, and my hair came out terrible, so I really need to know the answer to the question as I asked it, but thanks, Nvmbr.

flippacious 01-17-2013 07:20 PM

I was recently looking into surfactants, albeit in relation to polyquats, but found this thread extremely helpful:

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlta...l-buildup.html

Basically, dimethiconol is a water insoluble cone that cannot be removed by nonionic surfactants. You need to use an ionic surfactant to remove it (or something harsher).

I have only checked out two Shea Moisture shampoos, but they both had decyl glucoside, which is a nonionic surfactant. That won't remove the water insoluble cone. Cocomidopropyl betaine is an ionic surfactant that will remove dimethiconol. The thread above provides a much more thorough explanation, though!

Geek_Chic 01-17-2013 07:33 PM

I'm not a chemist, or a stylist, but here's what I found when I googled. You'll have to decide whether you think this is credible or not. Shea Moisture shampoos have Decyl Glucoside as the major cleansing ingredient. This thread, specifically post #10, indicates that it will remove even silicones that aren't water soluble.

Also, though it isn't backed up with anything, the last comment from the author on this page also says that it will remove all silicones. She says to shampoo twice for your initial shampoo to ensure complete removal, but that after the initial shampoo, continuing with a single shampoo in followup cleansings is adequate for complete removal. The commenter is the site owner and page author, and she's a naturopath. In my mind, naturopath isn't necessarily equivalent to having plenty of haircare /hair product knowledge, but it's perhaps better than just a layperson saying the same.

Myrna 01-17-2013 08:02 PM

I want to thank all for the links and the responses. All I know is yesterday I washed with a Shea Moisture shampoo - I forgot if it was the Moisture Retention or the Coconut Hibiscus - and used a Dove conditioner that has dimethiconol - and my hair looked lovely, better than I think I have ever seen it look, despite all my efforts to have great CG hair. I am going to try this combo again tomorrow. And if it works, I am going to keep doing it. If I notice a problem with my hair, I will stop. The evidence presented here - and, admittedly, I dont understand it all - seems inconclusive. I suspect that if one uses a shampoo with cones, a conditioner with cones, and styling product(s) with cones, that could be problematic, especially if one wets their hair in the morning or night, does not low poo or shampoo, and keeps loading on products. I dont do that. So I will keep you all informed about my little experiment - because I dont want to be extremist or purist in anything, and I dont want to accept something as gospel unless I know if it is right for me.

Jas76 01-17-2013 08:11 PM

I had thought SM would not remove cones - so this is new and interesting!! I had always used a coco betaine low poo for that type of thing, but maybe that's not necessary and the SM would be fine?

Let us know how it goes, Myrna!

MojoDojo 01-17-2013 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flippacious (Post 2103872)
I was recently looking into surfactants, albeit in relation to polyquats, but found this thread extremely helpful:

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlta...l-buildup.html

Basically, dimethiconol is a water insoluble cone that cannot be removed by nonionic surfactants. You need to use an ionic surfactant to remove it (or something harsher).

I have only checked out two Shea Moisture shampoos, but they both had decyl glucoside, which is a nonionic surfactant. That won't remove the water insoluble cone. Cocomidopropyl betaine is an ionic surfactant that will remove dimethiconol. The thread above provides a much more thorough explanation, though!

Flippacious beat me to it.

Myrna 01-17-2013 08:23 PM

As I said previously, there seems to conflicting opinions about at least some of the cones, and removal. I suspect, as I said, that it is a question of degree. Will keep you posted.

NvmbrCurlss 01-18-2013 12:17 AM

I'd love to know how ur experiment turns out, cuz I'm a new fan of HETT and it contains bisaminopropyl dimethicone...I'm using Come Clean at the end of the week to remove (it doesn't appear to build up on its self, rather it continues to find cuticles to fill until, BAM!, perfect hair on day 3,4 AND 5). I'm gonna subscribe to this thread and become a lurker :)

Jas76 01-18-2013 08:49 AM

Pardon the threadnap, Myrna, but I must hear more about this HETT and 3-5 day hair???
So give us your routine! Are you using the mousse? Gel? Are you reapplying to dry hair? What are you doing on day 1??
Fill us in!!

Myrna 01-18-2013 08:59 AM

Just reporting in here: 2nd time of using the Dove conditioner with dimethiconol: great hair. Great curl def and shiny, bouncy curls. If I have a week of this, it may be time to change, or at least to start questioning more.

Jas76 01-18-2013 10:46 AM

I bet if it continues going well you'll be fine! You may find you need a slightly stronger poo maybe once a week or so, but then again maybe not, too!

Some people find cones to be great sealers. And you can still apply CG principles and be mod-CG while using cones.

Most important thing is to find what WORKS for you! If you are getting good results, go with it!

(I realize you know all that, Myrna, but some people reading this may not! ;) )

Myrna 01-18-2013 11:02 AM

That would be fine, then I would not have to miss out on using my Aveda Shampoo Brilliant, which I love.

NvmbrCurlss 01-18-2013 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jas76 (Post 2104148)
Pardon the threadnap, Myrna, but I must hear more about this HETT and 3-5 day hair???
So give us your routine! Are you using the mousse? Gel? Are you reapplying to dry hair? What are you doing on day 1??
Fill us in!!

I must clarify, I re-wet, rinse out with suave tropical coconut and add more HETT(conditioner) as a leave in. It's just the longer I go without cleansing, while using it, the better my hair looks! :) whatever cuticles weren't coated with the first use, just get moist and coated with each use...I wish I could get true 2nd or 3rd day hair without having to re-wet, but my hair is so fine it won't hold up overnight:( but I LOVE HETT!!!!!!

NvmbrCurlss 01-18-2013 08:24 PM

And I feel you Myrna...cone use is giving me some doubts and anxiety about build up...

Myrna 01-19-2013 11:19 AM

Third day, SM Moisture retention shampoo and Dove Revitalizing conditioner, Curl Keeper and Deva foam: Hard to believe that a cheap conditioner with dimethicone could get great results and be bad for my hair.

Jas76 01-19-2013 06:42 PM

See, that's just it! It ISN'T bad for you hair! It's the cycle of cones and sulfates! If you are able to get the cones out w/o using sulfates, or by using them sparingly, your hair will be better off.

Again, if your hair is doing well with this, go with it! If it starts going downhill, clarify. There may be build up eventually, your hair could get drier - if so just remove the cones and do a DT on a fairly regular basis.

I'm glad you found something that is working! Makes me tempted to give cones a try again... Tho most people on here who use cones have said they CANNOT use them in their condish, only in stylers. I'm still torn. :/

Myrna 01-19-2013 06:47 PM

Hi, Jas: I dont need the cones in a styler, at least I dont think I do. But in the conditioner, I am seeing my hair look shinier, and with better curl definition. Youre correct, it could be temporary, so Ill continue to post about this.

oh.hi.its.steph 01-19-2013 09:40 PM

You know, I fell off the CG bandwagon because natural products just could NOT tame my coarse hair. So, much like Myrna, I started using coney conditioners and found they do wonders for my hair :) It's shinier and softer. As long as I use my Renpure low-poo, it seems as though I have no build-up issues. So there's some encouragement for you -- I've been using cones for months now and my hair looks better than ever!


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