Over-moisturized visual aid!

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Ok so I hope this is helpful for someone.. I wish I had taken better pics of how it really looked but these pics taken the days before I did the last PT and after do a pretty good job of showing the drastic difference. Trust me though it's more obvious in person, and though the after shots were taken 2 days after doing the PT it only got better through out the week and is still going strong a full week later and I have had some good 2nd day hair even. I had done some gelatin PT's and not had much luck so wasn't sure my hair needed protein, but then I found the Palmer's one (made a post about it on the protein board) and it was amazing for my hair. I had lost so much curl pattern and it was just fluffy, overly soft, and SUPER frizzy most days. The PT and trying and using just Suave Naturals Coconut conditioner (was using heavier biolage conditioning balm, yes to carrots, or aussie 3mm before) for both a RO and LI are the only changes I made. I am having great results with conditioner only styling even and don't feel so rushed to find a good styler. Anyway, until that PT I was so unsure whether or not I was over-moisturized or not because though it seemed to go along with what I was reading it also looked and felt sort of dry because of the crazy frizz.

So here are the pics. Again, sorry they aren't better pics. I have a hard time getting a true image of what it looks like in person with the limits on good lighting in my house.

Over-moisturized visual aid!-ptbeforeandafter.jpgOver-moisturized visual aid!-ptbeforeandafter2.jpg


*ETA* I mentioned on one of my replies that after 8 days I decided to try and do a second PT... not really needing it per say, but just curious how it would go and needing to do it today because it is a weekend and I had more time. Anyway, it went GREAT! Seriously love how my hair feels when I am rinsing the PT out, so much different than the two times I tried the gelatin PT. I think because this one not only has the cones but also is supposed to be deep conditioning... so it's like taking care of both your PT and DT in one step. I left it on for a full hour this time (pkg says 20 minutes, first time I did 40). Then I used a little Biolage Conditioning Balm to make sure I had a good conditioner in there, and followed up with the suave naturals coconut as a LI. No stylers, and it looks even better today in some ways than the last week where I felt I was having such a good hair week. It still has frizz because I am not using any stylers, but I can live with it. The curl was stronger again, and I can't wait to see if it gets even more so as the week progresses as it did last time. Here are pics from today. The side angle wasn't a very good one and it was still partially wet so excuse that part of it, but it gives an idea. My hair gets better throughout the day, less frizzy as it dries fully and soaks in the conditioner since it's low porosity. I even tried to throw in a back image, but was having trouble getting good focus. Not my best back hair, but still pretty good. Sorry for the variations in color... too lazy to fix that lol.

Over-moisturized visual aid!-2ndpt.jpg
My Hair:
2c
Fine, low porosity, med/high density
BSL - going for mid back to waist

HG: currently
just washing with a low poo that contains protein (Alba Naturals Coconut) and using Suave Naturals Coconut as both a RO and LI. No stylers right now, but this gives me pretty good curl, definition, low-ish frizz, and it feels and looks good. Also an occasional PT (liking the Palmer's Coconut Oil Formula which has cones) seems to be key for me.

Modified CG since February 2013


Last edited by awelcome; 06-02-2013 at 04:17 PM.
Great idea!! I think mine was like that too. It's been a bit better since stopped using the CB and adding a bit of protein.
JulesOnline

3A/B? A corkicelli mix of ringlets, spirals, helixes & s-shaped curls
Medium-fine texture, normal porosity, normal elasticity


Summer: pink; Winter: Blue; Year Round: green
Lo-Poo:Giovanni SAS sulfate free poo, L'Oreal Evercream CC
Co-wash: TNRV, VO5 Vanilla Mint Tea, TNNM
RO/LI:
YTC, Nexxus Hydra-light w/ CNPF GVPCB, Biolage CB, TNNM, Giovanni SAS
Styler: KCCC FSG, BRHG, LALSG



I don't even know if my balance is good at the moment, just like you said, I am unsure of whether or not I am overmoisturized.
Too bad the Palmer's thing has cones.
What are the ingredients of it? And how much do you do it? Would it be so bad to have cones once in a while? And would you really need to use sulfates after it to remove the cones or would a sulfate free shampoo like Rainforest Radiance shampoo do the trick as well?

(especially on your sides there are drastic changes! I would love to have a change like that, although I feel like I might be slightly curlier than you are. Your hair looks sooooo healthy now! I'm quite jealous)
I washed my hair today
(didn't use sulfate free shampoo, but did use yes to cucumbers conditioner, rainforest moisture hair butter, inecto conditioner, yes to cucumbers conditioner, finished with mousse and a tiny bit of BRHG)
and I wonder if my hair is just weighed down or overconditioned.

It seems to be longer than it has been (less spring factor), is a bit ill defined and I have spirals going on that look like someone has pulled them down and it didn't bounce back. The ends are really really soft (normally they tickle me, now if I try to "sting" myself with my ends, I don't feel the stinging ends or so... really soft) and I have much less volume than I used to have like 2 weeks ago. Oh and my hair looks dry, but isn't dry.
2 weeks ago I got my hair dyed again, as usual every 6-8 weeks and I thought my hair to be dry afterwards so in these two weeks I did 2 honey-olive oil treatments that I left on my hair for an hour.


Ugh... I just want to have nice hair again as I had like "an entire 2 weeks" at the end of March...

Last edited by Neleke; 06-02-2013 at 08:53 AM.
Hi Neleke,
That does seem like a lot of conditioner, not sure if any of them have protein in them. I guess you still haven't gotten your hair results yet either. Of course I don't know what products are available to you but it does sound like more protein and less moisture might help. From another of your posts I got the impression you might be low porosity, if so, it should like protein. I usually look for products labeled as repairing or strengthening and then check the ingredients. As you can see from my siggy I use almost all products with protein. HTH
2A / F / MD / LP / ?E / BSL --- CG since Dec. 2012

This is what I'm happiest with right now.
Co-wash: CJ DailyFix
Lo-poo: DermOrganic low-poo
RO: SS Caitlin's co
Leave-in: SheScentIt Okra Repair condish
PT: SS Caitlin's + SS PT
Stylers: Volumax Mega Gel, Max Green Styling Gel, DermOrganics Spray Gel
Techniques: Plopping & Pixie Diffusing.
glycerin, honey, oils & butters Protein!
I know what the softness feels like!
Untill 3 months ago I still flat ironed my hair and used oil loaded with silicones after flat ironing.
My hair would feel sooooo soft (so soft that people touching my hair told me that they had never felt hair as soft as mine before).
(ofcourse if it was a windy day, the flat ironing would be ruined instantly and I would have explosioneffectbighair...as I was a curly in denial)

Now, my hair feels even softer then after flat ironing and oiling with cones.
and it looks limp and frizzydry and darker than it normally does.

awelcome: I keep on looking at your pics. I really really really looove the afterproteinsidepicture!
You have gorgeous hair. Period.
I washed my hair today
(didn't use sulfate free shampoo, but did use yes to cucumbers conditioner, rainforest moisture hair butter, inecto conditioner, yes to cucumbers conditioner, finished with mousse and a tiny bit of BRHG)
and I wonder if my hair is just weighed down or overconditioned.

It seems to be longer than it has been (less spring factor), is a bit ill defined and I have spirals going on that look like someone has pulled them down and it didn't bounce back. The ends are really really soft (normally they tickle me, now if I try to "sting" myself with my ends, I don't feel the stinging ends or so... really soft) and I have much less volume than I used to have like 2 weeks ago. Oh and my hair looks dry, but isn't dry.
2 weeks ago I got my hair dyed again, as usual every 6-8 weeks and I thought my hair to be dry afterwards so in these two weeks I did 2 honey-olive oil treatments that I left on my hair for an hour.


Ugh... I just want to have nice hair again as I had like "an entire 2 weeks" at the end of March...
Originally Posted by Neleke
Neleke, my hair would be both overconditioned and weighed down if I'd use that much conditioner! Also, depending on your properties (I know you're still waiting for the results of your analysis), protein indeed might be essential and I don't think these products contain a lot of protein.

I'm not sure if I'm correct here, but what I've been gathering from your posts lately is that you're experimenting a lot. Experimenting is good, but my hair always needs some time to get used to new products and techniques. Also, if you change more than one thing at a time, you'll never be able to tell what really works (or what causes problems).

Obviously this doesn't really answer your question, but hope it helps anyway.
curlypearl likes this.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Petal Fresh Organics Rosemary & Mint Volumizing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
My hair looked HORRID yesterday. Stringy, flat and heavy, curls falling out in places.

I was afraid while I was doing my hair that I had used too much gel. But my hair was acting all day like I hadn't used enough!!

I had only co-washed, and I'm pretty sure I am OC'd. :/ I always forget how much protein I need during these warmer months!! I may have to go to 2 PT's a week. Or even using a PT as my RO. Silly porous hair.

That 2nd pic group (the profiles) is exactly me yesterday. My hair is a 2c/3a/3b combo - usually more of a 3a. Yesterday... Well lets just say it was not. It was terrible, and ugly.
2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
Seal - MO or Jojoba
DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
I used the heap of conditioner because my hair felt dry (I thought) but now I'm thinking it didn't even feel dry but that I just used the wrong gel before (been having troubles with the gel I'm using for a month now).

Lauraimes, I'm especially thinking about experimenting with a lot but I only try one new thing at a time, and most of the times even only one time a week ... otherwise it would take me years (/decades) to experiment I guess

My huge problem is that I can't seem to figure out what my hair wants (more moisture or more protein) and especially... that I don't know when a conditioner is heavy, and when it is light. How do you figure that one out?
For example: Yes to cucumbers, is that a heavy one or a light one? does heavy and light have to do with the ingredients, or with the thickness of a conditioner? (whether it is very running and watery or whether it is rather thick)
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 939
Your hair won't go from being dry to feeling amazing overnight. Using tons of conditioner can't speed the process in fact for me heavy conditioners don't really work. A light to medium conditioner over time is the best.
Neleke, I understand why you want to experiment a lot, but not giving your hair enough time to get used to a particular routine might slow down the process of discover what works for you and what it. It might even take longer before you're done experimenting, I think.

I know you're using BRHG. My hair loved it: great hold, for the entire day and even second day hair. However, I got really dry curls because - and I know this, but I really wanted to try it because it's readily available in stores - my hair doesn't like chemicals, but prefers natural products.

I think you should go back to the basics until you get your analysis results back. Try and see if you can establish your properties by self-assessing your hair. Stick to one routine for at least one, but preferably two weeks and see what happens. Does that match with the properties you assessed or did you get something wrong? Re-assess. Adjust your routine based on your observations. Perhaps even keep a hair journal to see what happens.

Otherwise, you might continue experimenting and feel even more frustrated. Think about it this way: if we're put in a new situation, we need to adjust as well. The same goes for your hair. It needs some time.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Petal Fresh Organics Rosemary & Mint Volumizing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
I avoid products with lots of butters & oils, those seem to weigh my hair down the most. If a product has fatty alcohols plus humectants plus oils/butters it is usually heavier/more moisturizing. I look for conditioners without butters, few oils and humectants low on the list (or absent, in the case of glycerin). In general I've found conditioners with protein seem 'lighter', probably because the protein balances out the moisture content.
2A / F / MD / LP / ?E / BSL --- CG since Dec. 2012

This is what I'm happiest with right now.
Co-wash: CJ DailyFix
Lo-poo: DermOrganic low-poo
RO: SS Caitlin's co
Leave-in: SheScentIt Okra Repair condish
PT: SS Caitlin's + SS PT
Stylers: Volumax Mega Gel, Max Green Styling Gel, DermOrganics Spray Gel
Techniques: Plopping & Pixie Diffusing.
glycerin, honey, oils & butters Protein!
Laura and I were posting at the same time. I want to second her vote for a journal, I started one in the low porosity board and it has been amazingly helpful to be able to go back and see exactly what I did and how different things worked. At first I thought I would just remember everything (haha) but writing everything out really helped me focus in on what was and was not working and figure out how to proceed from there.
Neleke likes this.
2A / F / MD / LP / ?E / BSL --- CG since Dec. 2012

This is what I'm happiest with right now.
Co-wash: CJ DailyFix
Lo-poo: DermOrganic low-poo
RO: SS Caitlin's co
Leave-in: SheScentIt Okra Repair condish
PT: SS Caitlin's + SS PT
Stylers: Volumax Mega Gel, Max Green Styling Gel, DermOrganics Spray Gel
Techniques: Plopping & Pixie Diffusing.
glycerin, honey, oils & butters Protein!
Thank you Neleke. Yes, the PT has cones which I was worried about at first, but I do use a poo with coco-betaine every wash and don't seem to have an issue with build-up. I am doing another PT with it again right now, and can't wait to see how it turns out. I wouldn't say I absolutely needed it yet, but weekends are kind of my time to fiddle with my hair more, and I wanted to see if I could get even better results doing another so soon or if it was my limit or not.

Here is the link to my post about the PT.
Palmer's Coconut Oil Formula PT

I wish I could get better angled pictures in my small window of good light, so I could show you guys the even more drastic change to the back which was basically straight/2a on a good day when OC'd and is now full of stronger 2b (it's always less than my front/sides) and rope curls. Also the front pic didn't really show it well that day but I have a good amount of curl there too after this combo where you can see it was getting stringy and really limp before. The best part is my hair still feels really soft, almost like when it was OC'd but just in a good way now lol.

I would love to see pics from others in this thread of OC'd hair and maybe an after too. I think it really does help to SEE things rather than read descriptions all the time which can vary by person.
Lauraimes and Neleke like this.
My Hair:
2c
Fine, low porosity, med/high density
BSL - going for mid back to waist

HG: currently
just washing with a low poo that contains protein (Alba Naturals Coconut) and using Suave Naturals Coconut as both a RO and LI. No stylers right now, but this gives me pretty good curl, definition, low-ish frizz, and it feels and looks good. Also an occasional PT (liking the Palmer's Coconut Oil Formula which has cones) seems to be key for me.

Modified CG since February 2013

Laura: problem is that I don't have an idea of my properties at all, you could even highlight "at all" and that makes it quite hard. I could be doing the exact opposite of what my hair likes without noticing it (also because I don't see well which makes it harder to assess). I tried to battle frizz with moisture (that's probably why I'm probably overconditioned now) and am feeling so "aaargh" because I don't understand chemistry...

After this whole time I think the only things I learned are:
- avoid sulfates and silicones
- avoid MO (although I'm not too sure about that either, I only avoid it because most of you do)
- plopping is ok
- diffusing is ok
- stop brushing
- avoid drying alcohols...

And that's it.

I think my hair likes yes to cucumbers conditioner (have used that since the beginning) but I don't think it is a HG yet.
I think my hair likes Ultra Doux conditioner with shea butter and avocado oil, but I'm not sure, used it for a couple of weeks and stopped using it because it was a thick conditioner and I was afraid that thick meant heavy and that it would weigh my hair down.

I know my hair doesn't like a certain l'oreal sulfate free shampoo (have used that for a couple of weeks)
I know my hair doesn't like the natural conditioner with aloe vera purchased at Hema (but I expected it the minute I put the conditioner in my hand).
I personally (don't know about my hair) don't like Fructis gel anymore since I find it too sticky and crunching with stickiness for me means disrupting curls.

My hair like the olive oil and honey DT a LOT when I did it more than a week ago but didn't like it 2 days ago it seems (had a week in between).

Problem is that I don't know why my hair likes or doesn't like certain products.
awelcome, I really agree that pictures help!

Laura: but you should be proud of me, I didn't buy anything new for the last 3 weeks.
And from the beginning almost three months ago I tried:
- 2 different low poo's (L'oreal and Rainforest Radiance shampoo)
- 5 different conditioners: Yes to carrots which I now only use to SOTC (a tiny amount), Yes to cucumbers which I still use), Inecto Coconut, Inecto Olive oil, Ultra Doux
- a bunch of styling product, but I'm especially having a hard time finding a good non-drying product that isn't sticky
- 1 hair butter
- gelatin PT
- honey olive oil DT
- banana smoothie

Is that that much in almost 3 months? for me it doesn't seem so since I at least need 1 lowpoo, 2-3 conditioners (cowash for the times I don't lowpoo, RO, LI), 1-2 stylers

If there are people with inventor ambitions: you should invent a small machine where you can put a couple of strands in and that tells you if your hair needs more moisture or more protein.
I would use the machine every week or so since I suck at assessing my own hair.
sheilacurl likes this.

Last edited by Neleke; 06-02-2013 at 11:50 AM.
I don't even know if my balance is good at the moment, just like you said, I am unsure of whether or not I am overmoisturized.
Too bad the Palmer's thing has cones.
What are the ingredients of it? And how much do you do it? Would it be so bad to have cones once in a while? And would you really need to use sulfates after it to remove the cones or would a sulfate free shampoo like Rainforest Radiance shampoo do the trick as well?

(especially on your sides there are drastic changes! I would love to have a change like that, although I feel like I might be slightly curlier than you are. Your hair looks sooooo healthy now! I'm quite jealous)
Originally Posted by Neleke
If your sulfate free shampoo contains Cocamidopropyl Betaine or Cocobetaine, it will remove all silicones. No need to sulfate shampoo to remove them. This page is a good reference: What's the Scoop on Silicones?
CG since 11/2011
2c /3a F /Mii, low porosity

Autumn Products /Routine:
Clarifying: ACV rinses, Suave Professional Men Deep Clean Peppermint
Low Poo: Renpure Luxurious Argan Oil
Co-washes: VO5 Kiwi Lime Squeeze or Strawberries & Cream
RO: VO5 KLS or S&C, Cure Care
LI (if needed): VO5 S&C, VO5 KLS, Cure Care
Stylers: FSG, L'Oreal Studio Clean gel, Tresemme Flawless Curls Bouncy Curls gel
PT: IAGirl's as needed
just a heads up that I edited the first post to include some from today with the second PT.
My Hair:
2c
Fine, low porosity, med/high density
BSL - going for mid back to waist

HG: currently
just washing with a low poo that contains protein (Alba Naturals Coconut) and using Suave Naturals Coconut as both a RO and LI. No stylers right now, but this gives me pretty good curl, definition, low-ish frizz, and it feels and looks good. Also an occasional PT (liking the Palmer's Coconut Oil Formula which has cones) seems to be key for me.

Modified CG since February 2013

Wow,awelcome your hair is amazing! And you're not using any stylers??

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk HD
2a-2bFii NP?

Low poo: Deva Low-Poo, Jessicurl GLS, Moroccanoil Volumizing Shampoo, Aveda Be Curly
Condish: Cure Care, Redken Body Full, Deva One C, and Jessicurl Aloeba
LI: Aveda Be Curly Style Prep <3
Products: Deva FFVF & Jessicurl Spiralicious (LOVE), TRESemme Curl Boosting Mousse
Hairspray: Aussie Sprunch, TRESemme Curl
locking Spray
Experimenting with lots of products in my cabinet...


My hair loves protein, plopping, and diffusing! Trying to find a way to style and air dry.
awelcome, your hair looks absolutely gorgeous! I love that it's all natural, and so shiny and healthy. I'm hoping to achieve that as well (I'm having frizz today for the first time in my life. What's going on?)

Neleke, it's good that you haven't bought anything new, but there are so many possibilities with the products you have, in terms of combinations and how you're using them. Have you actually read this? Curly Hair Basics | Live Curly Live Free

I think that should definitely help giving to give meaning to your observations.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Petal Fresh Organics Rosemary & Mint Volumizing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number

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