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-   -   How much curl keeper do you use? (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/159504-how-much-curl-keeper-do-you-use.html)

alslgirl2002 06-18-2013 01:35 PM

How much curl keeper do you use?
 
I just got my first bottle of curl keeper yesterday and promptly tried it last night. I have NEVER had a product eliminate frizz, even hard hold gels. Once I SOTC the frizz returns, so I wasn't expecting HG results. I live in a high dew area, and today we are having rain so 100% relative humidity. And of course my hair is frizz city. Here is how I used it - co washed, used my DT for my rinse out, then used a bit of devacare for a LI, followed by KCCC and then finished with about 3 quarter sized palmfuls of curl keeper. Then I did a modified tshirt turban and scrunched with the tshirt to remove more water, then topped the crown with some LA Looks mega hold and scrunched some in as well. The result were some nice soft curls with good definition, some shine, and just a little crunch. It really looked lovely last night and this morning minus a few pineapple issues, but add in the humidity and the frizz returned and continues to get progressively worse. I think possibly I should reverse the KCCC and curl keeper, but I wonder if I could use MORE curl keeper? How do you use it?

Also, as a side note, I thought my hair hated glycerin, but I was surprised to find it in the ingredients list (I thought I had researched it). It is also in the LALooks although both are second or third to the last ingredient. Turns out my hair doesn't hate it so much!

Firefox7275 06-18-2013 01:59 PM

High humidity means humectants can be a disaster because they will draw water from the atmosphere into the hair causing frizz, especially in porous hair. Curl Keeper is wall to wall humectants with propylene glycol and glycerin, KCCC is also fairly heavy on the humectants with agave and aloe vera. Then you have yet more glycerin as the second ingredient in the Devacare conditioner.

Overall your routine is imbalanced and is probably the total opposite of what is likely to be effective in 100% humidity. Humectants can work in moderation balanced out with other ingredients, try taking some of the humectants out of your routine and adding in some barrier or sealing agents like natural oils. Coconut oil is the most easily absorbed oil and great at reducing porosity.

alslgirl2002 06-18-2013 02:23 PM

Firefox - Yeah, I can see that now. That's why my hair gets frizzier as the day goes on. I have tried both argan oil and coconut oil. I am not liking the argan oil, it just sits there. I have used the coconut for DT, with good results, but its not easy for every day use since its solid.

I do know I need to figure this out. There is so much to learn and I've only been doing this a month. I am starting a list of what these things are - I just added your list of humectants. I also am grappling with trying the komaza hair analysis - although I am very certain of the porosity of my canopy.

All that being said, I do really like the initial result of this combo, and may keep it for winter styling.

Firefox7275 06-18-2013 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2181809)
Firefox - Yeah, I can see that now. That's why my hair gets frizzier as the day goes on. I have tried both argan oil and coconut oil. I am not liking the argan oil, it just sits there. I have used the coconut for DT, with good results, but its not easy for every day use since its solid.

I do know I need to figure this out. There is so much to learn and I've only been doing this a month. I am starting a list of what these things are - I just added your list of humectants. I also am grappling with trying the komaza hair analysis - although I am very certain of the porosity of my canopy.

All that being said, I do really like the initial result of this combo, and may keep it for winter styling.

Don't use coconut oil neat for everyday, use it regularly as a pre-wash on dry hair, ideally overnight before wash day, or as an ingredient within a conditioner. You could even use it to make a variation on the DIY Ecostyler custard. Curl Keeper and KCCC are indeed lovely products in the right weather conditions.

Maybe read the lengthy thread on the Komaza Care analysis and see if it gives you the sort of information that would be of use to you or not. It's incredibly detailed, it would be pretty pricey if all you got out of it was the hair properties!
Komaza Care HAIR ANALYSIS Service - Rave! - Long Hair Care Forum

alslgirl2002 06-18-2013 08:14 PM

Firefox- I have been really wanting to try the oyin handmade pomande for finishing and looking at some of their other products I like the whipped cream hair butter - it has shea and all kinds of oils. I am having a mind block on how to use a product like this. I find it weird to consider putting oil based products on my wet hair. I am getting used to wet application of products and really like it. What are your thoughts on these products?

Firefox7275 06-18-2013 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2181946)
Firefox- I have been really wanting to try the oyin handmade pomande for finishing and looking at some of their other products I like the whipped cream hair butter - it has shea and all kinds of oils. I am having a mind block on how to use a product like this. I find it weird to consider putting oil based products on my wet hair. I am getting used to wet application of products and really like it. What are your thoughts on these products?

I wouldn't touch shea butter haircare products with a ten foot pole, it doesn't absorb, can be sticky and can build up. Love it for skin tho. Castor oil can also be quite sticky, I like it as a minor ingredient because it's a rare oil with humectant properties but I would be wary as a main ingredient.

Personally I prefer penetrating oils in conditioner form which are easy to distribute and easily removed, but I do have wavy caucasian hair and co-wash so can take rich but not heavy products if you can see the difference. You might get away with heavy products if you are low-pooing tho.

alslgirl2002 06-19-2013 07:13 AM

Pre-CG I used pomades for finishing with fab results. They really help to tame my canopy frizz which I don't expect to improve for some time for a variety of reasons - breakage, porosity, wiry greys, etc, so I will keep looking for a pomade but try to find one that is CG friendly. I see several that look promising on curl mart. I low-poo about once per week, really only when I do a DT with coconut oil, so I can probably use something a little heavy.

I just restocked on my devacare which I use for cowash, rinse out, and leave in. I know I need to find something else for rinse out and leave in. I do have a bottle of cheapo suave naturals that I use for my daughter's hair that I have considered using. I get so confused because I see that Naturally Curly lists this product as an anti-humectant, but it contains humectants, huh?

Firefox7275 06-19-2013 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2182050)
Pre-CG I used pomades for finishing with fab results. They really help to tame my canopy frizz which I don't expect to improve for some time for a variety of reasons - breakage, porosity, wiry greys, etc, so I will keep looking for a pomade but try to find one that is CG friendly. I see several that look promising on curl mart. I low-poo about once per week, really only when I do a DT with coconut oil, so I can probably use something a little heavy.

I just restocked on my devacare which I use for cowash, rinse out, and leave in. I know I need to find something else for rinse out and leave in. I do have a bottle of cheapo suave naturals that I use for my daughter's hair that I have considered using. I get so confused because I see that Naturally Curly lists this product as an anti-humectant, but it contains humectants, huh?

Coconut oil is almost an anomaly in the haircare world IMO, it's obviously solid at room temperature and used straight up it doesn't seem as 'light' as a liquid plant oil. Some users report it leaves their hair crunchy, this effect seems to be more prevalent in those with low porosity hair and is perhaps related to failing to thoroughly cleanse the excess.

Because the lauric acid molecules are small (12 carbons) they penetrate into the cortex relatively easily, and I find the excess remaining on the surface washes away easily with conditioner so that my hair is not weighed down unless I do a rubbish job of cleansing! Being solid you would expect coconut oil to behave like a butter and be heavy, but instead for many of us it's more rich IYSWIM. The common butters are rich in palmitic and/ or stearic acids which are much longer chains/ larger molecules (16 and 18 carbons) than lauric acid, I assume this has something to do with the different behaviours.

CurlyGrey3 06-19-2013 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2182050)
I get so confused because I see that Naturally Curly lists this product as an anti-humectant, but it contains humectants, huh?

The properties seem to be pretty good for most products, but I've definitely seen products with humectants listed as anti-humectant.

wavydaze 06-19-2013 08:37 AM

IF you're going by the little pictures, sometimes they're incorrect or misleading. Always go by ingredients!

If you're high-po you could probably benefit from some regular intake of protein. Medium width should be ok too... usually the coarse curlies have issues with protein.

If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)

I've never had problems with shea butter buildup. It is true I low-poo regularly. But I think curlies on this forum love SheaMoisture products that all have shea butter in them, and many, if not most of those curlies cowash. I suppose it depends on your hair.

I agree overall that you need to cut the humectants, especially the glycerin.

alslgirl2002 06-19-2013 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2182075)
I agree overall that you need to cut the humectants, especially the glycerin.

Yes, I will work on that. But geez is it hard to find a product without it!

alslgirl2002 06-19-2013 09:50 AM

Thanks everyone for all of the advice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2182075)
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)

Thanks. That looks lovely. I have been looking for a curl creme, especially since I dislike gels. I plan to head out to target this weekend!

wavydaze 06-19-2013 10:00 AM

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlta...ost-yours.html

CurlyGrey3 06-19-2013 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2182075)
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)

Isn't caprylyl glycol a humectant?

CAPRYLYL GLYCOL || Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database | Environmental Working Group

I guess it works well for you in whatever levels in that product. I may try it when the dewpoints go up here.

alslgirl2002 06-19-2013 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3 (Post 2182141)
Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2182075)
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)

Isn't caprylyl glycol a humectant?

CAPRYLYL GLYCOL || Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database | Environmental Working Group

I guess it works well for you in whatever levels in that product. I may try it when the dewpoints go up here.

Yes, but I am thinking that because it comes beneath all of the oils, possibly the oils counter balance the humectant properties.

OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!

Firefox7275 06-19-2013 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2182172)
Yes, but I am thinking that because it comes beneath all of the oils, possibly the oils counter balance the humectant properties.

OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!

Ha ha, welcome to the club! My name is Firefox7275 and I am a product junkie.

Samanthascurlz 06-19-2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefox7275 (Post 2182218)
Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2182172)
Yes, but I am thinking that because it comes beneath all of the oils, possibly the oils counter balance the humectant properties.

OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!

Ha ha, welcome to the club! My name is Firefox7275 and I am a product junkie.

This made me LOL!

wavydaze 06-19-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3 (Post 2182141)
Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2182075)
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)

Isn't caprylyl glycol a humectant?

CAPRYLYL GLYCOL || Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database | Environmental Working Group

I guess it works well for you in whatever levels in that product. I may try it when the dewpoints go up here.

Well I guess you're right about the caprylyl glycol... I didn't even know it was a humectant! The thing is, for whatever reason only glycerin has given me issues. And even then, if it's listed after an anti-humectant (as in the case with the Alba Botanica leave-in) it hasn't given me problems.

These are the Curl & Style Milk ingredients on my bottle:

Deionized Water, Shea butter, coconut oil, sugar starch, silk protein, essential oil blend, neem oil, caprylyl glycol, sorbitol esters, algae extract, hyssopus oficinalis extract, sage leaf and equisetum arvense extract, carrot seed oil, honeysuckle and Japanese honeysuckle flower extracts, tocopherol, hibiscus flower extract.

My ingredients are different than the ones listed in the products section of this page!

The first two (non water) ingredients are both anti-humectants so one humectant in the middle of the list shouldn't be an issue.

Lynaea 06-19-2013 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2182172)
OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!

I'm sorry, we're here to ENCOURAGE new curlies, we don't WANT to stop you.
You must be a PJ like the rest of us, its in your NC.com membership agreement. :evil3:

Lynaea 06-19-2013 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2182289)
Well I guess you're right about the caprylyl glycol... I didn't even know it was a humectant! The thing is, for whatever reason only glycerin has given me issues. And even then, if it's listed after an anti-humectant (as in the case with the Alba Botanica leave-in) it hasn't given me problems.

Same for me, glycerin in the top half of anything I leave in gives me mega frizz but its the second to last ingredient in the SSI okra I use as a LI with almost no frizz issues. Agave nectar and honey high on the list give me moderate frizz too but I haven't noticed an issue with propylene glycol or aloe. All humectants are not created equally. And pairing humectants with oils or butters definitely lessens their negative effects, my hair just can't handle the oils.


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