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Old 06-18-2013, 01:35 PM   #1
 
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Default How much curl keeper do you use?

I just got my first bottle of curl keeper yesterday and promptly tried it last night. I have NEVER had a product eliminate frizz, even hard hold gels. Once I SOTC the frizz returns, so I wasn't expecting HG results. I live in a high dew area, and today we are having rain so 100% relative humidity. And of course my hair is frizz city. Here is how I used it - co washed, used my DT for my rinse out, then used a bit of devacare for a LI, followed by KCCC and then finished with about 3 quarter sized palmfuls of curl keeper. Then I did a modified tshirt turban and scrunched with the tshirt to remove more water, then topped the crown with some LA Looks mega hold and scrunched some in as well. The result were some nice soft curls with good definition, some shine, and just a little crunch. It really looked lovely last night and this morning minus a few pineapple issues, but add in the humidity and the frizz returned and continues to get progressively worse. I think possibly I should reverse the KCCC and curl keeper, but I wonder if I could use MORE curl keeper? How do you use it?

Also, as a side note, I thought my hair hated glycerin, but I was surprised to find it in the ingredients list (I thought I had researched it). It is also in the LALooks although both are second or third to the last ingredient. Turns out my hair doesn't hate it so much!
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:59 PM   #2
 
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High humidity means humectants can be a disaster because they will draw water from the atmosphere into the hair causing frizz, especially in porous hair. Curl Keeper is wall to wall humectants with propylene glycol and glycerin, KCCC is also fairly heavy on the humectants with agave and aloe vera. Then you have yet more glycerin as the second ingredient in the Devacare conditioner.

Overall your routine is imbalanced and is probably the total opposite of what is likely to be effective in 100% humidity. Humectants can work in moderation balanced out with other ingredients, try taking some of the humectants out of your routine and adding in some barrier or sealing agents like natural oils. Coconut oil is the most easily absorbed oil and great at reducing porosity.
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2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:23 PM   #3
 
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Firefox - Yeah, I can see that now. That's why my hair gets frizzier as the day goes on. I have tried both argan oil and coconut oil. I am not liking the argan oil, it just sits there. I have used the coconut for DT, with good results, but its not easy for every day use since its solid.

I do know I need to figure this out. There is so much to learn and I've only been doing this a month. I am starting a list of what these things are - I just added your list of humectants. I also am grappling with trying the komaza hair analysis - although I am very certain of the porosity of my canopy.

All that being said, I do really like the initial result of this combo, and may keep it for winter styling.
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:11 PM   #4
 
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Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 View Post
Firefox - Yeah, I can see that now. That's why my hair gets frizzier as the day goes on. I have tried both argan oil and coconut oil. I am not liking the argan oil, it just sits there. I have used the coconut for DT, with good results, but its not easy for every day use since its solid.

I do know I need to figure this out. There is so much to learn and I've only been doing this a month. I am starting a list of what these things are - I just added your list of humectants. I also am grappling with trying the komaza hair analysis - although I am very certain of the porosity of my canopy.

All that being said, I do really like the initial result of this combo, and may keep it for winter styling.
Don't use coconut oil neat for everyday, use it regularly as a pre-wash on dry hair, ideally overnight before wash day, or as an ingredient within a conditioner. You could even use it to make a variation on the DIY Ecostyler custard. Curl Keeper and KCCC are indeed lovely products in the right weather conditions.

Maybe read the lengthy thread on the Komaza Care analysis and see if it gives you the sort of information that would be of use to you or not. It's incredibly detailed, it would be pretty pricey if all you got out of it was the hair properties!
Komaza Care HAIR ANALYSIS Service - Rave! - Long Hair Care Forum
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2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:14 PM   #5
 
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Firefox- I have been really wanting to try the oyin handmade pomande for finishing and looking at some of their other products I like the whipped cream hair butter - it has shea and all kinds of oils. I am having a mind block on how to use a product like this. I find it weird to consider putting oil based products on my wet hair. I am getting used to wet application of products and really like it. What are your thoughts on these products?
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:36 PM   #6
 
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Firefox- I have been really wanting to try the oyin handmade pomande for finishing and looking at some of their other products I like the whipped cream hair butter - it has shea and all kinds of oils. I am having a mind block on how to use a product like this. I find it weird to consider putting oil based products on my wet hair. I am getting used to wet application of products and really like it. What are your thoughts on these products?
I wouldn't touch shea butter haircare products with a ten foot pole, it doesn't absorb, can be sticky and can build up. Love it for skin tho. Castor oil can also be quite sticky, I like it as a minor ingredient because it's a rare oil with humectant properties but I would be wary as a main ingredient.

Personally I prefer penetrating oils in conditioner form which are easy to distribute and easily removed, but I do have wavy caucasian hair and co-wash so can take rich but not heavy products if you can see the difference. You might get away with heavy products if you are low-pooing tho.
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2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:13 AM   #7
 
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Pre-CG I used pomades for finishing with fab results. They really help to tame my canopy frizz which I don't expect to improve for some time for a variety of reasons - breakage, porosity, wiry greys, etc, so I will keep looking for a pomade but try to find one that is CG friendly. I see several that look promising on curl mart. I low-poo about once per week, really only when I do a DT with coconut oil, so I can probably use something a little heavy.

I just restocked on my devacare which I use for cowash, rinse out, and leave in. I know I need to find something else for rinse out and leave in. I do have a bottle of cheapo suave naturals that I use for my daughter's hair that I have considered using. I get so confused because I see that Naturally Curly lists this product as an anti-humectant, but it contains humectants, huh?
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:39 AM   #8
 
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Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 View Post
Pre-CG I used pomades for finishing with fab results. They really help to tame my canopy frizz which I don't expect to improve for some time for a variety of reasons - breakage, porosity, wiry greys, etc, so I will keep looking for a pomade but try to find one that is CG friendly. I see several that look promising on curl mart. I low-poo about once per week, really only when I do a DT with coconut oil, so I can probably use something a little heavy.

I just restocked on my devacare which I use for cowash, rinse out, and leave in. I know I need to find something else for rinse out and leave in. I do have a bottle of cheapo suave naturals that I use for my daughter's hair that I have considered using. I get so confused because I see that Naturally Curly lists this product as an anti-humectant, but it contains humectants, huh?
Coconut oil is almost an anomaly in the haircare world IMO, it's obviously solid at room temperature and used straight up it doesn't seem as 'light' as a liquid plant oil. Some users report it leaves their hair crunchy, this effect seems to be more prevalent in those with low porosity hair and is perhaps related to failing to thoroughly cleanse the excess.

Because the lauric acid molecules are small (12 carbons) they penetrate into the cortex relatively easily, and I find the excess remaining on the surface washes away easily with conditioner so that my hair is not weighed down unless I do a rubbish job of cleansing! Being solid you would expect coconut oil to behave like a butter and be heavy, but instead for many of us it's more rich IYSWIM. The common butters are rich in palmitic and/ or stearic acids which are much longer chains/ larger molecules (16 and 18 carbons) than lauric acid, I assume this has something to do with the different behaviours.
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2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:05 AM   #9
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 View Post
I get so confused because I see that Naturally Curly lists this product as an anti-humectant, but it contains humectants, huh?
The properties seem to be pretty good for most products, but I've definitely seen products with humectants listed as anti-humectant.
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Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

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Old 06-19-2013, 08:37 AM   #10
 
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IF you're going by the little pictures, sometimes they're incorrect or misleading. Always go by ingredients!

If you're high-po you could probably benefit from some regular intake of protein. Medium width should be ok too... usually the coarse curlies have issues with protein.

If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)

I've never had problems with shea butter buildup. It is true I low-poo regularly. But I think curlies on this forum love SheaMoisture products that all have shea butter in them, and many, if not most of those curlies cowash. I suppose it depends on your hair.

I agree overall that you need to cut the humectants, especially the glycerin.
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fine - low porosity - medium density - normal elasticity. Very high dews. Soft water.

Cowash: CJ Daily Fix
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni 2chic BK&AO
RO: TN Radiant Care, Giovanni SaS, Ogx BKT*, Sukin Nourishing, SS Caitlin's, various
LI: sometimes TN Radiant Care
Styler: FSG with CNPF, CJ Pattern Pusha, Volumax Mega, Ouidad Climate Control*, Ogx BKT serum*
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*have cones
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:48 AM   #11
 
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I agree overall that you need to cut the humectants, especially the glycerin.
Yes, I will work on that. But geez is it hard to find a product without it!
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:50 AM   #12
 
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Thanks everyone for all of the advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wavydaze View Post
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)
Thanks. That looks lovely. I have been looking for a curl creme, especially since I dislike gels. I plan to head out to target this weekend!
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #13
 
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Glycerin free products: please post yours
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fine - low porosity - medium density - normal elasticity. Very high dews. Soft water.

Cowash: CJ Daily Fix
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni 2chic BK&AO
RO: TN Radiant Care, Giovanni SaS, Ogx BKT*, Sukin Nourishing, SS Caitlin's, various
LI: sometimes TN Radiant Care
Styler: FSG with CNPF, CJ Pattern Pusha, Volumax Mega, Ouidad Climate Control*, Ogx BKT serum*
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

*have cones
underline = I love these!

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Old 06-19-2013, 10:28 AM   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavydaze View Post
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)
Isn't caprylyl glycol a humectant?

CAPRYLYL GLYCOL || Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database | Environmental Working Group

I guess it works well for you in whatever levels in that product. I may try it when the dewpoints go up here.
__________________
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:32 AM   #15
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavydaze View Post
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)
Isn't caprylyl glycol a humectant?

CAPRYLYL GLYCOL || Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database | Environmental Working Group

I guess it works well for you in whatever levels in that product. I may try it when the dewpoints go up here.
Yes, but I am thinking that because it comes beneath all of the oils, possibly the oils counter balance the humectant properties.

OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!
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Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:50 PM   #16
 
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Yes, but I am thinking that because it comes beneath all of the oils, possibly the oils counter balance the humectant properties.

OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!
Ha ha, welcome to the club! My name is Firefox7275 and I am a product junkie.
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2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:48 PM   #17
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 View Post
Yes, but I am thinking that because it comes beneath all of the oils, possibly the oils counter balance the humectant properties.

OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!
Ha ha, welcome to the club! My name is Firefox7275 and I am a product junkie.
This made me LOL!
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #18
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wavydaze View Post
If you're interested I started using the Shea Moisture Coconut/Hibiscus Curl & Style Milk. It is full of anti-humectants, no glycerin and it has protein. I live in very high dews and it's probably my most favorite product I've ever tried. (I'm not high porosity, but my hair is fine and loves protein.)
Isn't caprylyl glycol a humectant?

CAPRYLYL GLYCOL || Skin Deep® Cosmetics Database | Environmental Working Group

I guess it works well for you in whatever levels in that product. I may try it when the dewpoints go up here.
Well I guess you're right about the caprylyl glycol... I didn't even know it was a humectant! The thing is, for whatever reason only glycerin has given me issues. And even then, if it's listed after an anti-humectant (as in the case with the Alba Botanica leave-in) it hasn't given me problems.

These are the Curl & Style Milk ingredients on my bottle:

Deionized Water, Shea butter, coconut oil, sugar starch, silk protein, essential oil blend, neem oil, caprylyl glycol, sorbitol esters, algae extract, hyssopus oficinalis extract, sage leaf and equisetum arvense extract, carrot seed oil, honeysuckle and Japanese honeysuckle flower extracts, tocopherol, hibiscus flower extract.

My ingredients are different than the ones listed in the products section of this page!

The first two (non water) ingredients are both anti-humectants so one humectant in the middle of the list shouldn't be an issue.
__________________
fine - low porosity - medium density - normal elasticity. Very high dews. Soft water.

Cowash: CJ Daily Fix
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni 2chic BK&AO
RO: TN Radiant Care, Giovanni SaS, Ogx BKT*, Sukin Nourishing, SS Caitlin's, various
LI: sometimes TN Radiant Care
Styler: FSG with CNPF, CJ Pattern Pusha, Volumax Mega, Ouidad Climate Control*, Ogx BKT serum*
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

*have cones
underline = I love these!

iherb discount code: CFN646
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:22 PM   #19
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 View Post
OMG - you guys have me on a complete obsessive search for the right products. I am going to spend another small fortune tonight at target!!! Please help me stop!
I'm sorry, we're here to ENCOURAGE new curlies, we don't WANT to stop you.
You must be a PJ like the rest of us, its in your NC.com membership agreement.
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2A / F / MD / LP / ?E / BSL --- CG since Dec. 2012

This is what I'm happiest with right now.
Co-wash: CJ DailyFix
Lo-poo: DermOrganic low-poo
RO: SS Caitlin's co
Leave-in: SheScentIt Okra Repair condish
PT: SS Caitlin's + SS PT
Stylers: Volumax Mega Gel, Max Green Styling Gel, DermOrganics Spray Gel
Techniques: Plopping & Pixie Diffusing.
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:30 PM   #20
 
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Well I guess you're right about the caprylyl glycol... I didn't even know it was a humectant! The thing is, for whatever reason only glycerin has given me issues. And even then, if it's listed after an anti-humectant (as in the case with the Alba Botanica leave-in) it hasn't given me problems.
Same for me, glycerin in the top half of anything I leave in gives me mega frizz but its the second to last ingredient in the SSI okra I use as a LI with almost no frizz issues. Agave nectar and honey high on the list give me moderate frizz too but I haven't noticed an issue with propylene glycol or aloe. All humectants are not created equally. And pairing humectants with oils or butters definitely lessens their negative effects, my hair just can't handle the oils.
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2A / F / MD / LP / ?E / BSL --- CG since Dec. 2012

This is what I'm happiest with right now.
Co-wash: CJ DailyFix
Lo-poo: DermOrganic low-poo
RO: SS Caitlin's co
Leave-in: SheScentIt Okra Repair condish
PT: SS Caitlin's + SS PT
Stylers: Volumax Mega Gel, Max Green Styling Gel, DermOrganics Spray Gel
Techniques: Plopping & Pixie Diffusing.
glycerin, honey, oils & butters Protein!
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