Scraggly Ends

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Hello! I've been a stalker here since November when I decided to go CG. I feel like I totally know all you guys (not in a creepy way I'm a 2C with medium/course strands and low density. I was positive I was high porosity, now I'm thinking maybe more medium porosity. Don't really know! I also thought I was protein sensitive and conditioned like crazy, now I'm almost balanced I think. I sleep in GVP Conditioning Balm mixed with honey every week and still usually still have straw-like, dry hair. I have a ton of products with protein that I've essentially banished to the back of my cabinet until today. I'm definitely working on my protein/moisture properties.

So last night I slept in GVP again, then rinsed this morning. I then put in a half handful of Tresseme Naturals to condition and used a pick to distribute and make sure my roots weren't sealed to my head. I did not rinse! Just left it in as my leave in. I then scrunch and pumped in some Bioterra curling creme, then some Bioterra gel (both to wet hair in the shower). I plopped for 15, then clipped and let air dry. This is the first time I've used anything with even the tiniest bit of protein for weeks, and my hair is surprisingly softer if a bit undefined- I attribute the lack of straw like properties to the GVP overnight and not rinsing out my conditioner. My roots are happy, but my ends- not so much. They are somehow both poofy and stringy looking if that's possible. I did a big cut right when I went CG since I had straightened pre CG and think I got most of the damage off. My ends may still be a bit damaged and they certainly don't curl as much as my roots...do I need to chop them or was it something with my routine? Actually my routine changes daily as I'm a PJ who still can't seem to make things work more than once, but the problem with my ends are pretty consistent. They are lacking the fullness of the rest of my hair. Maybe just because I have thinner hair? Boo!
Thoughts?
Attached Thumbnails
Scraggly Ends-imageuploadedbycurltalk1372640387.875621.jpg  
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!

Last edited by WavyRoo; 06-30-2013 at 08:32 PM.
Beautiful hair! I was going to say that your ends seem to curl to where overall it looks like a U shape and they look defined. But I am not an expert. Looks good tho! Sorry I wasn't much help!
High Porosity, Fine, Thin Density, Low Elasticity
Co-wash, leave in, and gel: Alba botanica coconut cond., ogx mousse, &/or super wet look gel.
Curls
I don't think they look scraggly?
2a medium porous, You can see my wavy tutorials here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZNxhBHSXAW40OQ and my wavy blog is The Wavy Nation http://wavynation.wordpress.com
Really?! Hmmmm, OK. Well thanks for being so encouraging!

I guess I just see an inch or two that isn't quite as voluminous as the rest and seems to just hang there! There are days where that inch or two are practically straight and really ruin my overall curl pattern. Maybe I just need a trim.
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
Time to re-introduce the protein! I would say to try coating your ends (lightly dampen them first) with gvp joico kpak + gvp biolage balm (2:1) and a few drops of coconut oil overnight, rinse out in the morning. Do that a few times, if that doesn't work, then get a trim.
4a/3c, fine strands, low porosity, medium density
Last relaxer: Jan 2010 - BC'd: 2/27/11
My Fotki
My Blog

Last edited by artemis513; 06-30-2013 at 10:07 PM.
Great idea! Thanks so much
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
Why are you sleeping in the GVP and why are you adding honey to it? There is nothing in that which can penetrate, it's humectants and emollients, will get to maximum effectiveness in perhaps half an hour. After that all you are doing is weakening the bonds in your hair by leaving it wet. Do your dew points/ humidity suit such a humectant rich conditioner (propylene glycol) mixed with yet another humectant (honey)?

I suspect your routine is unbalanced, healthy hair needs emollients and occlusives to hold the moisture provided by humectants, protein to balance it out. You don't seem to be using anything that will penetrate, strengthen, patch damage.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
Lovely hair. I would agree with adding more protein. My hair tends to be on the dry side. I read on Live Curly Live Free that hair that seems dry may actually need more protein. I started doing my protein treatments weekly, and that really helped. I do follow up with a deep treatment. I use the GVP conditioning balm, but I mix mine with oil...love it. I think the protein helps hair hang on to moisture better.
Started CG July 8, 2008


3

Co-wash: Trader Joe's Tea Tree Tingle or Trader Joe's Nourish Spa
Rinse out: Ion Effective Care Treatment
Leave-in/Styling: Moisture Maniac with Kenra Moisturizing Conditioner on top
Protein Treatment: Nutress Moisturizing Protein Pack
Deep Condition:Acure Moroccan Argan Conditioner+Sally's GVP Balm
When I sleep in the GVP I put it in dry- I can't sleep in wet hair! It dries and turns kinda crunchy within an hour or less, then i rinse it out in the morning. I guess I was confused- I saw that many people on here recommended it as a deep treatment. I used to use my YTC and it worked ok, but my hair seemed much softer after using the GVP. Is the Tresemme or Too Shea better? No clue what an occlusive is!! My dews are usually around 50 and the frizz forecast suggests humectants. I love mixing honey with my conditioner- it makes my waves much more uniform and curlier. I'm not sure how emollients fit in, or even what they do!

I did do two protein treatments a month apart when I first started CG and I feel like I'm still trying to recover. My hair was incredibly rough feeling- definitely straw like. It was a mess! No curl, just poofy and rough. I'm very hesitant to try it again, but I like the idea of just putting it on the ends. They may still be damaged so that may help. I even noticed that my hair was rough if I just used styling products with protein in them and cut them out completely while trying to deep condition as much as possible. I guess I'm missing what will really penetrate the hair shaft to moisturize! Sigh.
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
When I sleep in the GVP I put it in dry- I can't sleep in wet hair! It dries and turns kinda crunchy within an hour or less, then i rinse it out in the morning. I guess I was confused- I saw that many people on here recommended it as a deep treatment. I used to use my YTC and it worked ok, but my hair seemed much softer after using the GVP. Is the Tresemme or Too Shea better? No clue what an occlusive is!! My dews are usually around 50 and the frizz forecast suggests humectants. I love mixing honey with my conditioner- it makes my waves much more uniform and curlier. I'm not sure how emollients fit in, or even what they do!

I did do two protein treatments a month apart when I first started CG and I feel like I'm still trying to recover. My hair was incredibly rough feeling- definitely straw like. It was a mess! No curl, just poofy and rough. I'm very hesitant to try it again, but I like the idea of just putting it on the ends. They may still be damaged so that may help. I even noticed that my hair was rough if I just used styling products with protein in them and cut them out completely while trying to deep condition as much as possible. I guess I'm missing what will really penetrate the hair shaft to moisturize! Sigh.
Originally Posted by WavyRoo
People on here do a lot of unscientific and illogical things like applying conditioner to dry hair when it's not designed for that - the basic conditioning ingredients (cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols AKA emollients) adhere best to recently shampoo'd hair due to the charges on the molecules. Emollients are hair and skin softeners, they have various benefits including temporarily patching damage on the hair surface, reducing friction when combing, very weak humectants.

By all means use honey but don't add humectants to yet more humectants, balance your routine. Proteins also have humectant properties so perhaps you have simply been overdoing the humectants for some time. By letting a product containing a high percentage of two humectants dry on your hair you are more likely to be drawing water out of your hair than moisturising (adding or increasing water).

Occlusives are sealants = oils, butters, silicones, petroleum jelly, waxes (some of these we avoid in CG). Some oils are penetrating - anything rich in lauric acid or oleic acid especially coconut olive and avocado - others like shea butter are not.

Tresemme, Yes to Carrots and Too Shea are not really deep conditioners, they are everyday conditioners designed to reach maximum effectiveness in a fairly short time. If you want to use these you can use them as a base for a deep conditioner, you can add ingredients to make a deep conditioner but do so logically, something that penetrates, something that balances out your routine or the product, an ingredient you believe is a penetration enhancer for another ingredient. Honey with coconut oil is a popular and logical combination.

First of an excellent series of articles on deep conditioning
THE NATURAL HAVEN: Deep Conditioning Update: Penetration and Adsorption
Samanthascurlz likes this.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect

Last edited by Firefox7275; 07-01-2013 at 03:55 PM.
When I sleep in the GVP I put it in dry- I can't sleep in wet hair! It dries and turns kinda crunchy within an hour or less, then i rinse it out in the morning. I guess I was confused- I saw that many people on here recommended it as a deep treatment. I used to use my YTC and it worked ok, but my hair seemed much softer after using the GVP. Is the Tresemme or Too Shea better? No clue what an occlusive is!! My dews are usually around 50 and the frizz forecast suggests humectants. I love mixing honey with my conditioner- it makes my waves much more uniform and curlier. I'm not sure how emollients fit in, or even what they do!

I did do two protein treatments a month apart when I first started CG and I feel like I'm still trying to recover. My hair was incredibly rough feeling- definitely straw like. It was a mess! No curl, just poofy and rough. I'm very hesitant to try it again, but I like the idea of just putting it on the ends. They may still be damaged so that may help. I even noticed that my hair was rough if I just used styling products with protein in them and cut them out completely while trying to deep condition as much as possible. I guess I'm missing what will really penetrate the hair shaft to moisturize! Sigh.
Originally Posted by WavyRoo
People on here do a lot of unscientific and illogical things like applying conditioner to dry hair when it's not designed for that - the basic conditioning ingredients (cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols AKA emollients) adhere best to recently shampoo'd hair due to the charges on the molecules. Emollients are hair and skin softeners, they have various benefits including temporarily patching damage on the hair surface, reducing friction when combing, very weak humectants.

By all means use honey but don't add humectants to yet more humectants, balance your routine. Proteins also have humectant properties so perhaps you have simply been overdoing the humectants for some time. By letting a product containing a high percentage of two humectants dry on your hair you are more likely to be drawing water out of your hair than moisturising (adding or increasing water).

Occlusives are sealants = oils, butters, silicones, petroleum jelly, waxes (some of these we avoid in CG). Some oils are penetrating - anything rich in lauric acid or oleic acid especially coconut olive and avocado - others like shea butter are not.

Tresemme, Yes to Carrots and Too Shea are not really deep conditioners, they are everyday conditioners designed to reach maximum effectiveness in a fairly short time. If you want to use these you can use them as a base for a deep conditioner, you can add ingredients to make a deep conditioner but do so logically, something that penetrates, something that balances out your routine or the product, an ingredient you believe is a penetration enhancer for another ingredient. Honey with coconut oil is a popular and logical combination.

First of an excellent series of articles on deep conditioning
THE NATURAL HAVEN: Deep Conditioning Update: Penetration and Adsorption
Originally Posted by Firefox7275
Sorry WavyRoo, I don't mean to convert to a different topic, but Firefox, what are some ingredients that are considered emollients? I have been trying to find a good leave-in, but I am not specifically positive on what exactly to look for.

Also, that was a great article!
Firefox7275 likes this.
High Porosity, Fine, Thin Density, Low Elasticity
Co-wash, leave in, and gel: Alba botanica coconut cond., ogx mousse, &/or super wet look gel.
Curls

Last edited by Samanthascurlz; 07-01-2013 at 04:14 PM.
Ok, some of that makes sense.....kinda. I'm a math teacher, not a science teacher. You're smart, chica!

Yeah I'm not gonna lie- still confused. So coconut oil is another thing I SOOO wanted to love, but it seemed to suck all the curl right out my hair. I did mix coconut oil, honey, Tresemme and a little cinnamon (it's supposed to help bring out natural highlights) for a deep treatment last week which I again slept in. I did a low poo to make sure there was no build up, then put in the mix. That time it WAS wet and in a shower cap all night. Should I not be doing my treatments overnight? It's the only way I have time to let it really sit on my hair... Anyways my hair was awful the next day. Puffy, undefined, lank, rough. I put it up. That's the third time I tried a DT with coconut oil. Man, I must really be doing something wrong here. I've read everything I could get my hands on and thought I was finally starting to understand all the verbage. Apparently not. I certainly appreciate your advice!
Firefox7275 likes this.
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
Ditto samanthascurlz- I wanna know, too!
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
Sorry WavyRoo, I don't mean to convert to a different topic, but Firefox, what are some ingredients that are considered emollients? I have been trying to find a good leave-in, but I am not specifically positive on what exactly to look for.

Also, that was a great article!
Originally Posted by Samanthascurlz
The whole Natural Haven blog is excellent, the author has a science background and it shows, she generally summarises without dumbing down.

See if you can find the recent thread on conditioners v. moisturisers, we went over various definitions of emollients. Basically to me they are softening agents so many ingredients have emollience as a secondary property, but the key emollients found in hair conditioners are the cationic surfactants and the fatty alcohols. list of common ingredients in families
Ingredients Commonly Found in Hair Care Products
Samanthascurlz likes this.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
sorry wavyroo, i don't mean to convert to a different topic, but firefox, what are some ingredients that are considered emollients? I have been trying to find a good leave-in, but i am not specifically positive on what exactly to look for.

Also, that was a great article!
Originally Posted by samanthascurlz
the whole natural haven blog is excellent, the author has a science background and it shows, she generally summarises without dumbing down.

See if you can find the recent thread on conditioners v. Moisturisers, we went over various definitions of emollients. Basically to me they are softening agents so many ingredients have emollience as a secondary property, but the key emollients found in hair conditioners are the cationic surfactants and the fatty alcohols. List of common ingredients in families
ingredients commonly found in hair care products
Originally Posted by firefox7275

thank you thank you thank you!
Firefox7275 likes this.
High Porosity, Fine, Thin Density, Low Elasticity
Co-wash, leave in, and gel: Alba botanica coconut cond., ogx mousse, &/or super wet look gel.
Curls
Ok, some of that makes sense.....kinda. I'm a math teacher, not a science teacher. You're smart, chica!

Yeah I'm not gonna lie- still confused. So coconut oil is another thing I SOOO wanted to love, but it seemed to suck all the curl right out my hair. I did mix coconut oil, honey, Tresemme and a little cinnamon (it's supposed to help bring out natural highlights) for a deep treatment last week which I again slept in. I did a low poo to make sure there was no build up, then put in the mix. That time it WAS wet and in a shower cap all night. Should I not be doing my treatments overnight? It's the only way I have time to let it really sit on my hair... Anyways my hair was awful the next day. Puffy, undefined, lank, rough. I put it up. That's the third time I tried a DT with coconut oil. Man, I must really be doing something wrong here. I've read everything I could get my hands on and thought I was finally starting to understand all the verbage. Apparently not. I certainly appreciate your advice!
Originally Posted by WavyRoo
I do overnight deep treatments but everything I use has at least one penetrating ingredient. There is no point in using standard conditioners that having nothing more that emollients and humectants overnight, they will work within the hour. Hydrolysed proteins and penetrating oils should slowly diffuse into the hair over many hours - they can absorb into the cortex because the molecules are very very small.

Experiment with coconut oil if you have porous hair, the research for penetration is on dry hair which makes sense because it's not water soluble. If I use coconut oil (or similar oils containing lauric acid like palm kernel oil, tucuma butter, babassu oil) I sometimes do it on slightly damp but not wet hair, sometimes do let that partially dry on my hair and partially soak overnight with a shower cap for the heat.

Are you washing the deep treatment out thoroughly so your hair is squeaky clean again or feeling like you need to leave a residue to get the benefit? If you are sure you are washing it out then either you are using and absorbing too much (see curl chemist article), coconut oil is not for you, or you are overdoing the humectants. It's tough to know which, there is an element of science and an element of experimenting to find your hair's balance.

I don't think I'd muddy the waters with gritty spices like cinnamon, try adding one ingredient at a time so you get the amount right and you know the effect, add the cinnamon down the line when you have a successful routine set up. So If you have established the Tresemme/ honey combo works, add just a little coconut oil the next time. Or establish if you can make the oil and conditioner work alone, then add just a little honey the next time.
Mineral Oil Versus Coconut Oil: Which is better?
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect

Last edited by Firefox7275; 07-01-2013 at 04:57 PM.
Gotcha. I'm going to try this next weekend. Thanks for everything!!
Firefox7275 likes this.
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
Coconut oil can be difficult to wash out. I have my best results mixing it with conditioner and honey and applying to dry hair. I let it sit for just an hour or two and cowash out. I tried using it alone overnight once and I must have used too much or let it sit too long for my hair. I had a terrible time washing it out and my hair was greasy for several washes. It can vary by person.
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
People on here do a lot of unscientific and illogical things
Originally Posted by Firefox7275
Speaking for myself and as least some of the other people here, we just don't have a clue.
Firefox7275 likes this.
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
Coconut oil can be difficult to wash out. I have my best results mixing it with conditioner and honey and applying to dry hair. I let it sit for just an hour or two and cowash out. I tried using it alone overnight once and I must have used too much or let it sit too long for my hair. I had a terrible time washing it out and my hair was greasy for several washes. It can vary by person.
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3
Do you mean just the coconut oil? I agree, that putting it with conditioner helps it wash out better. I tried using CO alone on wet hair and I knew it was a bad idea.
High Porosity, Fine, Thin Density, Low Elasticity
Co-wash, leave in, and gel: Alba botanica coconut cond., ogx mousse, &/or super wet look gel.
Curls

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