Question about water double cones and CG...

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  • 1 Post By artemis513
  • 1 Post By Morgan_Adcock

Two questions actually...

1. If you use water soluble cones is that considered CG or mod CG?

2. Those of you who have tried no cones and only using water soluble cones, do you notice a difference? If yes, what?

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2A/B. Mix of fine, medium, and coarse (mostly medium). Dense. Mix of normal and high porosity.
Dry climate.


I use products with water soluble cone because by design they will rinse right out. However, my sulfate free shampoo has a silicone in it, but the cleanser takes that right out. On the flip side, my leave in and styling products do not nor will they in the future have silicones in it. But that's just me. I can't speak for anything else.
If you read Lorraine Massey's book you'll see that the point of the CG method is to only use products that are water soluble so that you'll see the effects of constant conditioning much faster. Silicones that have been modified to be water-soluble shouldn't have any more effect on the hair than a light or modified oil that would be contained in one's conditioner--that is to say, you get the smoothing/slippy effects without the build up.
4a/3c, fine strands, low porosity, medium density
Last relaxer: Jan 2010 - BC'd: 2/27/11
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I use products with water soluble cone because by design they will rinse right out. However, my sulfate free shampoo has a silicone in it, but the cleanser takes that right out. On the flip side, my leave in and styling products do not nor will they in the future have silicones in it. But that's just me. I can't speak for anything else.
Originally Posted by curlicious13
TY!

If you read Lorraine Massey's book you'll see that the point of the CG method is to only use products that are water soluble so that you'll see the effects of constant conditioning much faster. Silicones that have been modified to be water-soluble shouldn't have any more effect on the hair than a light or modified oil that would be contained in one's conditioner--that is to say, you get the smoothing/slippy effects without the build up.
Thanks! I read the book (newer version) and I didn't see any mention of water soluble silicones being okay. It seemed she only stressed going silicone free.
2A/B. Mix of fine, medium, and coarse (mostly medium). Dense. Mix of normal and high porosity.
Dry climate.


Yeah that's really because she put her foot in her mouth in the first edition but then had amodimethicone in her products. So it's best if she just sticks with the basic "no silicones" approach to not confuse the lay-people. She means the old dinosaur versions of silicones that built up super easily, but times have now changed. Further, most 'cones while aren't water soluble are actually quite conditioner/mild surfactant and/or oil soluble.

Something else I think a lot of people don't realize is that she is not anti-sulfates...she is anti-shampoo. So if it lathers in any way it should not be used on curly hair (remember in the book, she says putting curly hair on a "bubble-free diet"?) But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

I find the explanation and marketing of her approach quite misleading even though her methods are some of the best for most curl types compared to other curl "experts".
4a/3c, fine strands, low porosity, medium density
Last relaxer: Jan 2010 - BC'd: 2/27/11
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Last edited by artemis513; 06-30-2013 at 09:35 PM.
Modified doesn't really have a firm definition, it likely means slightly different things to different people. I mentally think of what I do as being 'strict' CG, shampoo incredible rarely and no silicones at all. And anything else I think of as 'modified' with no criticism intended simply a distinction.

"Despite the proven advantages of silicones, some women make a big effort to avoid them. These women are often choosing to follow the hair care method promoted by Lorraine Massey in her 2001 instructional book for curly-haired women, Curly Girl: The Handbook. Regarding silicones, Massey wrote:

I suggest that you avoid conditioners that use silicones. Although they do add temporary shine to the hair, I find they weigh down curly hair. (That means avoid using products with ingredients whose name end in -cone.) The ingredients you absolutely need in conditioner include emollients, humectants, proteins, and moisturizers.

Four years later, in a Q&A featured on naturallycurly.com, Massey admitted that her original book was written before she ever heard of more sophisticated silicones like amodimethicone.
."
Silicones and Other Sealants for Natural Hair | Curly Nikki | Natural Hair Styles and Natural Hair Care


"In the “Curly Girl” book, you say NO SILICONES. However, in your products, you use amodimethicone and I was wondering what made you change your mind on that.– Liz

Lorraine Massey: At the time the book was written, my research on silicones was very thorough. As with most things, there are always advancements and new developments. Our incredible chemist introduced Amodimethicone to me like this: Most silicones disturb or pull the follicle, causing hair to lose its own natural color. Amodimethicone is found to protect the natural color of hair. So, although it’s a silicone, it’s a long-distance cousin to the bad ones. Having new information like this to share is why there will be a follow-up book to Curly Girl.
"
Curly Hair Q&A: Lorraine Massey

Deva certified stylist Scott Musgrave remains passionately anti-silicones
Scott’s Blog | MagiCurl | Scott Musgrave Hair

Last time I accidentally used a silicone that is not supposed to build up my hair was lank and unmanageable and generally awful, that might have partly been down to another ingredient in the formula it's tough to be sure.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
Indeed--"modified" is whatever the individual wants it to be. I think that is a NC.com coined term, actually..."modified CG". Not sure LM even recognizes it, she just says find your CG routine that works for you and stick with it.

And those who avoid silicones are also the ones who tend to require management regarding how much natural oils they apply to their hair, right? Just like there are varying molecular weights of silicones (which are basically synthetic oils), there are varying molecular weights of natural oils.

I tend to not use either in my rinse out conditioners in an effort to reduce my need for cleansing more than once/week. However I prefer light-medium emollients in my leave-in conditioner. I do not reapply this product during the days in between wash day so there is even less build up when it comes time to rinse. But if I piled on product day after day then yes I would need shampoo more often, of which I am not a fan, sulfates or otherwise due to the lathering properties.

ETA: So in the article above she acknowledges the benefit of next gen silicones, but never actually discusses it in the new book. Again, I surmise to not confuse the newbies...
4a/3c, fine strands, low porosity, medium density
Last relaxer: Jan 2010 - BC'd: 2/27/11
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Last edited by artemis513; 06-30-2013 at 09:56 PM.
Artemis, thank you for sharing. Very good information.
fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: no guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, gelatin gel

Recent findings: my hair likes Cure Care diluted with water as a cowash; does NOT like guar h.c.!

iherb discount code: CFN646
I tend to not use either in my rinse out conditioners in an effort to reduce my need for cleansing more than once/week. However I prefer light-medium emollients in my leave-in conditioner.
Originally Posted by artemis513
Which emollients would you consider light-medium and which heavy?
fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: no guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, gelatin gel

Recent findings: my hair likes Cure Care diluted with water as a cowash; does NOT like guar h.c.!

iherb discount code: CFN646

Something else I think a lot of people don't realize is that she is not anti-sulfates...she is anti-shampoo. So if it lathers in any way it should not be used on curly hair (remember in the book, she says putting curly hair on a "bubble-free diet"?) But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

I find the explanation and marketing of her approach quite misleading even though her methods are some of the best for most curl types compared to other curl "experts".
But she has a low poo for people that like lathers, In an earlier interview she says no sulfates, and how it's not the shampoo it's the sulfates


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CG/LOC Method's 3b/3c hair SL-Curly/ Goal-MBL Curly
Weekly Poo/Low Poo: some Shea M Poo.
Weekly Deep Treat-Dermorganic Intensive Hair Masque
Bi-Weekly RO:Tresseme Naturals - V.Smooth/N.Moisture
Daily Leave in:Shea Moisture Extra Moisture Detangler
Daily Oil: Olive Oil & Conut Oil Mix
Daily Styler: Shea Moisture Curl & Style Milk

Something else I think a lot of people don't realize is that she is not anti-sulfates...she is anti-shampoo. So if it lathers in any way it should not be used on curly hair (remember in the book, she says putting curly hair on a "bubble-free diet"?) But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

I find the explanation and marketing of her approach quite misleading even though her methods are some of the best for most curl types compared to other curl "experts".
But she has a low poo for people that like lathers, In an earlier interview she says no sulfates, and how it's not the shampoo it's the sulfates


Sent from my SGH-T999 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by KiraSavannah
That is what I meant by saying "But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

Her low-poo has much less detergents that what other commercial companies have produced as sulfate-free shampoo. Just look at the ingredients. Please also note that her product is indicated as having "low-lather" on the label, not simply sulfate free.

Further, you can also reference the articles by Michele Bender who co-wrote the 2nd edition on this site in which she directly states that lather kills curly hair. I asked her on one of the articles in the comments if this is what they meant and she clarified in the affirmative.
4a/3c, fine strands, low porosity, medium density
Last relaxer: Jan 2010 - BC'd: 2/27/11
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My Blog

Last edited by artemis513; 06-30-2013 at 11:39 PM.
I tend to not use either in my rinse out conditioners in an effort to reduce my need for cleansing more than once/week. However I prefer light-medium emollients in my leave-in conditioner.
Originally Posted by artemis513
Which emollients would you consider light-medium and which heavy?
Originally Posted by wavydaze
Based on my use of them...I have fine hair but coily so my ends always need oil

Light/light-medium: argan, apricot, grapeseed, almond (I do use just a few drops of almond oil on my ends daily) I like leave-ins that have these in them
Medium: Jojoba, avocado, coconut (kinda heavy but doable since I use these as overnight treatments or in a richer leave-in)
Heavy: Castor, olive (I save these for winter time treatments)
wavydaze likes this.
4a/3c, fine strands, low porosity, medium density
Last relaxer: Jan 2010 - BC'd: 2/27/11
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My Blog

Last edited by artemis513; 06-30-2013 at 11:41 PM.
Can I start co-wash my hair with a conditioner that contains cone?
Here is the list of its ingredients:
Purified water, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Vitis Vinifera (Grape seed) oil, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe vera gel) Leaf Juice, Carica Papaya Extract, Ampacrylats/allyl Nethacrylate Copolymer, Parfum (Fragrance) AMODIMETICONE, Bht, Coumarin, Trideceth-10, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.
Please is it safe? Can I still use it?

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Can I start co-wash my hair with a conditioner that contains cone?
Here is the list of its ingredients:
Purified water, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Vitis Vinifera (Grape seed) oil, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe vera gel) Leaf Juice, Carica Papaya Extract, Ampacrylats/allyl Nethacrylate Copolymer, Parfum (Fragrance) AMODIMETICONE, Bht, Coumarin, Trideceth-10, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.
Please is it safe? Can I still use it?

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Originally Posted by sweetandcurly
If you used it, you'd need a shampoo of some kind in order to get the a-cone out. If you want to strictly co wash and not shampoo, I'd stick to cone free conditioners...Suave Naturals, etc. All the ones in my siggie are cone free.
Started CG July 8, 2008


3

Pre Co-wash: Coconut oil (plain & rosemary)
Co-wash: Trader Joe's Tea Tree Tingle or Trader Joe's Nourish Spa
Rinse out: GVP Conditioning Balm
Leave-in/Styling: Moisture Maniac with Kenra Moisturizing Conditioner on top

If you used it, you'd need a shampoo of some kind in order to get the a-cone out. If you want to strictly co wash and not shampoo, I'd stick to cone free conditioners...Suave Naturals, etc. All the ones in my siggie are cone free.
Originally Posted by curry curls
Thank u

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I'm in the no cones and no sulfates camp. Low poo was allowed from the start for wavies and others if needed. Once my pre-CG hair had all been cut off, I felt extremely little need to low-poo, and generally couldn't even say how many months it's been since low-pooing. My hair is at its best without any products which leave a coating on my hair, so no silicones, PEG modified or otherwise, and I'm leery of polyquats. It's normal for me to be able to go several days between hair washings, as long as I follow that. If I use a product with ingredients which coat my hair, they weigh it down, and it dries out quickly.
chloe92us likes this.
Peace,
Morgan

Baby Fine 3B, low porosity, normal density and elasticity
CGing since July 2008

If you used it, you'd need a shampoo of some kind in order to get the a-cone out. If you want to strictly co wash and not shampoo, I'd stick to cone free conditioners...Suave Naturals, etc. All the ones in my siggie are cone free.
Originally Posted by curry curls
Thank u

Sent from my GT-S5360 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by sweetandcurly
You're welcome.
Started CG July 8, 2008


3

Pre Co-wash: Coconut oil (plain & rosemary)
Co-wash: Trader Joe's Tea Tree Tingle or Trader Joe's Nourish Spa
Rinse out: GVP Conditioning Balm
Leave-in/Styling: Moisture Maniac with Kenra Moisturizing Conditioner on top
Much praise to the CG Method, but I don't label myself CG or modified anymore. I don't use sulfate shampoos and if I use products that have silicones I clarify when needed. I actually listen to my hair and how it responds to different products. I'd rather have my hair look great with some water soluble silicones than a frizzy mess being CG.

3b, Medium-Coarse (slight coarse charactericstics), Normal porosity & Low elasticity per Curl Wizard Profile.
Low-poo: Nourish Shampoo
Co-wash: Suave, Vo5, HE, Aussie Moist
Deep Conditioner: GVP Conditioning Balm
Leave-in: Nourish Conditioner (Trader Joe's)
Stylers: LA Looks Sports, Coconut Oil, Almond Oil, Jojoba Oil.
Methods: Wet plop or pineapple at night, diffuse in the morning. Scrunch w/joboba, coconut or almond oil.

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