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Old 06-30-2013, 08:26 PM   #1
 
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Default Question about water double cones and CG...

Two questions actually...

1. If you use water soluble cones is that considered CG or mod CG?

2. Those of you who have tried no cones and only using water soluble cones, do you notice a difference? If yes, what?

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Old 06-30-2013, 08:31 PM   #2
 
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I use products with water soluble cone because by design they will rinse right out. However, my sulfate free shampoo has a silicone in it, but the cleanser takes that right out. On the flip side, my leave in and styling products do not nor will they in the future have silicones in it. But that's just me. I can't speak for anything else.
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:57 PM   #3
 
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If you read Lorraine Massey's book you'll see that the point of the CG method is to only use products that are water soluble so that you'll see the effects of constant conditioning much faster. Silicones that have been modified to be water-soluble shouldn't have any more effect on the hair than a light or modified oil that would be contained in one's conditioner--that is to say, you get the smoothing/slippy effects without the build up.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:08 PM   #4
 
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Originally Posted by curlicious13 View Post
I use products with water soluble cone because by design they will rinse right out. However, my sulfate free shampoo has a silicone in it, but the cleanser takes that right out. On the flip side, my leave in and styling products do not nor will they in the future have silicones in it. But that's just me. I can't speak for anything else.
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If you read Lorraine Massey's book you'll see that the point of the CG method is to only use products that are water soluble so that you'll see the effects of constant conditioning much faster. Silicones that have been modified to be water-soluble shouldn't have any more effect on the hair than a light or modified oil that would be contained in one's conditioner--that is to say, you get the smoothing/slippy effects without the build up.
Thanks! I read the book (newer version) and I didn't see any mention of water soluble silicones being okay. It seemed she only stressed going silicone free.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:33 PM   #5
 
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Yeah that's really because she put her foot in her mouth in the first edition but then had amodimethicone in her products. So it's best if she just sticks with the basic "no silicones" approach to not confuse the lay-people. She means the old dinosaur versions of silicones that built up super easily, but times have now changed. Further, most 'cones while aren't water soluble are actually quite conditioner/mild surfactant and/or oil soluble.

Something else I think a lot of people don't realize is that she is not anti-sulfates...she is anti-shampoo. So if it lathers in any way it should not be used on curly hair (remember in the book, she says putting curly hair on a "bubble-free diet"?) But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

I find the explanation and marketing of her approach quite misleading even though her methods are some of the best for most curl types compared to other curl "experts".
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:38 PM   #6
 
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Modified doesn't really have a firm definition, it likely means slightly different things to different people. I mentally think of what I do as being 'strict' CG, shampoo incredible rarely and no silicones at all. And anything else I think of as 'modified' with no criticism intended simply a distinction.

"Despite the proven advantages of silicones, some women make a big effort to avoid them. These women are often choosing to follow the hair care method promoted by Lorraine Massey in her 2001 instructional book for curly-haired women, Curly Girl: The Handbook. Regarding silicones, Massey wrote:

I suggest that you avoid conditioners that use silicones. Although they do add temporary shine to the hair, I find they weigh down curly hair. (That means avoid using products with ingredients whose name end in -cone.) The ingredients you absolutely need in conditioner include emollients, humectants, proteins, and moisturizers.

Four years later, in a Q&A featured on naturallycurly.com, Massey admitted that her original book was written before she ever heard of more sophisticated silicones like amodimethicone.
."
Silicones and Other Sealants for Natural Hair | Curly Nikki | Natural Hair Styles and Natural Hair Care


"In the “Curly Girl” book, you say NO SILICONES. However, in your products, you use amodimethicone and I was wondering what made you change your mind on that.– Liz

Lorraine Massey: At the time the book was written, my research on silicones was very thorough. As with most things, there are always advancements and new developments. Our incredible chemist introduced Amodimethicone to me like this: Most silicones disturb or pull the follicle, causing hair to lose its own natural color. Amodimethicone is found to protect the natural color of hair. So, although it’s a silicone, it’s a long-distance cousin to the bad ones. Having new information like this to share is why there will be a follow-up book to Curly Girl.
"
Curly Hair Q&A: Lorraine Massey

Deva certified stylist Scott Musgrave remains passionately anti-silicones
Scott’s Blog | MagiCurl | Scott Musgrave Hair

Last time I accidentally used a silicone that is not supposed to build up my hair was lank and unmanageable and generally awful, that might have partly been down to another ingredient in the formula it's tough to be sure.
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Old 06-30-2013, 09:51 PM   #7
 
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Indeed--"modified" is whatever the individual wants it to be. I think that is a NC.com coined term, actually..."modified CG". Not sure LM even recognizes it, she just says find your CG routine that works for you and stick with it.

And those who avoid silicones are also the ones who tend to require management regarding how much natural oils they apply to their hair, right? Just like there are varying molecular weights of silicones (which are basically synthetic oils), there are varying molecular weights of natural oils.

I tend to not use either in my rinse out conditioners in an effort to reduce my need for cleansing more than once/week. However I prefer light-medium emollients in my leave-in conditioner. I do not reapply this product during the days in between wash day so there is even less build up when it comes time to rinse. But if I piled on product day after day then yes I would need shampoo more often, of which I am not a fan, sulfates or otherwise due to the lathering properties.

ETA: So in the article above she acknowledges the benefit of next gen silicones, but never actually discusses it in the new book. Again, I surmise to not confuse the newbies...
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:28 PM   #8
 
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Artemis, thank you for sharing. Very good information.
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:30 PM   #9
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artemis513 View Post
I tend to not use either in my rinse out conditioners in an effort to reduce my need for cleansing more than once/week. However I prefer light-medium emollients in my leave-in conditioner.
Which emollients would you consider light-medium and which heavy?
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Cowash: CJ Daily Fix
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RO: TN Radiant Care, Giovanni SaS, Ogx BKT*, Sukin Nourishing, SS Caitlin's, various
LI: sometimes TN Radiant Care
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Old 06-30-2013, 10:50 PM   #10
 
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Quote:

Something else I think a lot of people don't realize is that she is not anti-sulfates...she is anti-shampoo. So if it lathers in any way it should not be used on curly hair (remember in the book, she says putting curly hair on a "bubble-free diet"?) But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

I find the explanation and marketing of her approach quite misleading even though her methods are some of the best for most curl types compared to other curl "experts".
But she has a low poo for people that like lathers, In an earlier interview she says no sulfates, and how it's not the shampoo it's the sulfates


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Old 06-30-2013, 11:29 PM   #11
 
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Something else I think a lot of people don't realize is that she is not anti-sulfates...she is anti-shampoo. So if it lathers in any way it should not be used on curly hair (remember in the book, she says putting curly hair on a "bubble-free diet"?) But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

I find the explanation and marketing of her approach quite misleading even though her methods are some of the best for most curl types compared to other curl "experts".
But she has a low poo for people that like lathers, In an earlier interview she says no sulfates, and how it's not the shampoo it's the sulfates


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That is what I meant by saying "But she realizes that it doesn't work for everyone so she says "sulfates" rather than "all detergents".

Her low-poo has much less detergents that what other commercial companies have produced as sulfate-free shampoo. Just look at the ingredients. Please also note that her product is indicated as having "low-lather" on the label, not simply sulfate free.

Further, you can also reference the articles by Michele Bender who co-wrote the 2nd edition on this site in which she directly states that lather kills curly hair. I asked her on one of the articles in the comments if this is what they meant and she clarified in the affirmative.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:36 PM   #12
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wavydaze View Post
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Originally Posted by artemis513 View Post
I tend to not use either in my rinse out conditioners in an effort to reduce my need for cleansing more than once/week. However I prefer light-medium emollients in my leave-in conditioner.
Which emollients would you consider light-medium and which heavy?
Based on my use of them...I have fine hair but coily so my ends always need oil

Light/light-medium: argan, apricot, grapeseed, almond (I do use just a few drops of almond oil on my ends daily) I like leave-ins that have these in them
Medium: Jojoba, avocado, coconut (kinda heavy but doable since I use these as overnight treatments or in a richer leave-in)
Heavy: Castor, olive (I save these for winter time treatments)
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:39 AM   #13
 
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Can I start co-wash my hair with a conditioner that contains cone?
Here is the list of its ingredients:
Purified water, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Vitis Vinifera (Grape seed) oil, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe vera gel) Leaf Juice, Carica Papaya Extract, Ampacrylats/allyl Nethacrylate Copolymer, Parfum (Fragrance) AMODIMETICONE, Bht, Coumarin, Trideceth-10, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.
Please is it safe? Can I still use it?

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Old 07-23-2013, 10:01 AM   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetandcurly View Post
Can I start co-wash my hair with a conditioner that contains cone?
Here is the list of its ingredients:
Purified water, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Vitis Vinifera (Grape seed) oil, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe vera gel) Leaf Juice, Carica Papaya Extract, Ampacrylats/allyl Nethacrylate Copolymer, Parfum (Fragrance) AMODIMETICONE, Bht, Coumarin, Trideceth-10, Magnesium Nitrate, Magnesium Chloride, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.
Please is it safe? Can I still use it?

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If you used it, you'd need a shampoo of some kind in order to get the a-cone out. If you want to strictly co wash and not shampoo, I'd stick to cone free conditioners...Suave Naturals, etc. All the ones in my siggie are cone free.
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Old 07-23-2013, 09:06 PM   #15
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curry curls View Post

If you used it, you'd need a shampoo of some kind in order to get the a-cone out. If you want to strictly co wash and not shampoo, I'd stick to cone free conditioners...Suave Naturals, etc. All the ones in my siggie are cone free.
Thank u

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Old 07-23-2013, 09:27 PM   #16
 
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I'm in the no cones and no sulfates camp. Low poo was allowed from the start for wavies and others if needed. Once my pre-CG hair had all been cut off, I felt extremely little need to low-poo, and generally couldn't even say how many months it's been since low-pooing. My hair is at its best without any products which leave a coating on my hair, so no silicones, PEG modified or otherwise, and I'm leery of polyquats. It's normal for me to be able to go several days between hair washings, as long as I follow that. If I use a product with ingredients which coat my hair, they weigh it down, and it dries out quickly.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:26 PM   #17
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetandcurly View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by curry curls View Post

If you used it, you'd need a shampoo of some kind in order to get the a-cone out. If you want to strictly co wash and not shampoo, I'd stick to cone free conditioners...Suave Naturals, etc. All the ones in my siggie are cone free.
Thank u

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:01 AM   #18
 
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Much praise to the CG Method, but I don't label myself CG or modified anymore. I don't use sulfate shampoos and if I use products that have silicones I clarify when needed. I actually listen to my hair and how it responds to different products. I'd rather have my hair look great with some water soluble silicones than a frizzy mess being CG.
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