Could I need MORE protein?

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Wavydaze - which Yes to Cucumbers product is that? They have several cleansers. Thanks!
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3
Look at that! I didn't know they had several formulas.

The above is the formulation for the "Color Protection" one.

Yes to Cucumbers Color Protection Shampoo
fine - normal porosity*?- medium density - normal elasticity. Hard water. SoCal.
*Used to be low-porosity, but I lightened my hair 1-2 shades, so I may be normal-porosity now.

New climate! Current favorites:
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni SaS
RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: JC Confident Coils, JC Rockin Ringlets, CJ CIAB, gelatin gel

iherb discount code: CFN646
These are the ingredients for YTCukes "Daily Color Care" which is discounted now on their website.

Water (Aqua), Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Fruit Extract*, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Rosa Canina Fruit Extract, Salix Alba (Willow) Bark Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil, Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil, Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil,Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Sea Water, Chlorella Vulgaris Extract, Spirulina Maxima Extract, Hydrolyzed Algin, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Xanthan Gum, Glycerin, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid, Potassium Sorbate, Phenoxyethanol

Yes to Cucumbers Daily Color Care Hair Care Routine -- Save 12%!

The ingredients seem identical or very similar? I didn't match one for one for every single botanical but the first 5 ingredients are identical.

I think they might have just changed the name. The YesToBloobs and YesToCarrots are different though and contain sulfates AFAIK.
fine - normal porosity*?- medium density - normal elasticity. Hard water. SoCal.
*Used to be low-porosity, but I lightened my hair 1-2 shades, so I may be normal-porosity now.

New climate! Current favorites:
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni SaS
RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: JC Confident Coils, JC Rockin Ringlets, CJ CIAB, gelatin gel

iherb discount code: CFN646
Thanks for the info!
wavydaze likes this.
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
I want to add to the OP, that if you use a low-poo with cocamidopropyl betaine or coco betaine in it (like the YTCukes), you can use silicones. I'm just saying this because I know you've been struggling and if you need to take a little break from full CG or need to look nice for an event or something you can use any old silicone products that used to work for you without "repercussions." CG has definitely benefited my hair and I would encourage you to keep experimenting, but it's always good to have an silicone option if you need it. As far as sulphates, you don't need those.
fine - normal porosity*?- medium density - normal elasticity. Hard water. SoCal.
*Used to be low-porosity, but I lightened my hair 1-2 shades, so I may be normal-porosity now.

New climate! Current favorites:
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni SaS
RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: JC Confident Coils, JC Rockin Ringlets, CJ CIAB, gelatin gel

iherb discount code: CFN646
Well you don't need sulphates unless you need to do a really powerful clarification (like polyquat buildup). But c. betaine gets rid of oil buildup, non-water soluble cones etc. so should take care of most problems.
fine - normal porosity*?- medium density - normal elasticity. Hard water. SoCal.
*Used to be low-porosity, but I lightened my hair 1-2 shades, so I may be normal-porosity now.

New climate! Current favorites:
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni SaS
RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: JC Confident Coils, JC Rockin Ringlets, CJ CIAB, gelatin gel

iherb discount code: CFN646
I'm really sorry you're having such a hard time with CG. Some people have more luck and start with out with a routine that works or semi-works so their hair improves instantly... others search for much longer until they find a routine that works for them.


Whenever you're having a ton of frizz it can definitely mean your moisture-protein balance is off. Overconditioned hair and overproteined hair can both look frizzy, but feel very different. OC feels really soft, mushy, limp, OP feels dry, possibly crunchy, or like a plastic doll's hair.

Another thing I noticed, you're using Deva low-poo. Kathymack and others have terrible buildup with polyquats. That could definitely be causing the crazy amount of frizz. Kathy, where are you? I think she particularly dislikes Deva low and no poos. She also said she had to use a harsh surfactant (sulfate) to get rid of it. You may need to clarify and use another low-poo. You'll have a clean slate, so that's good!

Deva Low-poo

Water (Aqua, Eau), Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Glycerin, Coco-Betaine, PEG-75 Lanolin, PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Polyquaternium-7, PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Melissa Officinalis Extract, Humulus Lupulus (Hops) Extract, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Extract, Achillea Millefolium Extract, Polyquaternium-10, Propylene Glycol, Aminomethyl Propanol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Fragrance (Parfum)

If I have a bad few days, it's usually some type of ingredient build up. The prior haircut, my CJ Daily Fix rolled out of the bag into the car. It was too late before I noticed. Let them use Deva NoPoo on my hair--BIG MISTAKE. It has a polyquat! Made my hair just awful until I used a sulfate shampoo to wash it out. Then, my hair was back to normal.

My first suggestion would be to read your ingredients, clarify and stay away from chemicals, like polyquats.
Originally Posted by kathymack
A Bad Hair Month?
Originally Posted by wavydaze
Yes, I did try to clarify and go polyquat free, but that literally lasted one wash - too many of my products have polyquats. I want to get off the deva bandwagon, but I spent a big chunck of cash on a liter of condish and don't want to waste it. I couldn't really tell if my hair was better after that wash. I do love the consistency and scent of the devacare, and my hair seems to like it for cowashing, but in future purchases I plan to only add polyquat free products in future purchases.

I think maybe I added too much protein in this last PT/DT, it feels just like your description - crispy and a lot like tangled dolls hair. I may lay off on the protein for a while. I have known for years that my hair doesn't really like protein in large amounts - I have always preferred "moisturizing" products versus "reconstructive" products except for rare occaisions following a particularly bad color job. I find that wierd given that my hair should be highly porous due to chemical and mechanical damage, so it should love protein, right? I think possibly I need to fork out the $80 for the detailed hair analysis.

One thing I also learned pre-CG is that my hair really doesn't like a ton of product in it. The problem with CG is that they push product in layers, and I can't seem to get that right. I need to back off for a while and just stick with condish only styling.

I am also beginning to adjust to the idea that I need a good cut. My last cut was in April, and it was a doozy - 2.5 inches chopped and just not a good cut. I have been planning to get a deva cut in a few weeks, but not at a strictly deva salon. Probably need to make that appointment soon!

Thanks so much for all of the advice. Several of you have really stuck with me, I feel like a hopeless case though!
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
EDIT: I'm looking at your siggy. I wouldn't use the SM milk for the above purpose because it has some protein and it's full of anti-humectants which is not exactly what dry hair needs. I see you have CJ Rehab... use some of that... dilute it with water if necessary.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
So you are saying don't use the SM milk for styling? I have been using it, but am not sure I like it. I have however, been using a small amount of the SM condish mixed with a little KCKT for a leave in. At first I loved that, but not so sure now. Here is what I am aiming for in my routine right now, although I am not there yet with 70+ dews is as follows:

1. Cowash.
2. RO with a very good condish that is high in behentrimonium methylsulfate and also has some panthenol.
3. Leave -in with some oils for sealing/anti-humectant qualitites.
4. Light gel for topping the canopy, frizz control only.

I would like to get to a point that I only low-poo maybe once or twice a month. Right now I am using it anywhere from 1-2x per week. Thoughts?
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
I think maybe I added too much protein in this last PT/DT, it feels just like your description - crispy and a lot like tangled dolls hair. I may lay off on the protein for a while. I have known for years that my hair doesn't really like protein in large amounts - I have always preferred "moisturizing" products versus "reconstructive" products except for rare occaisions following a particularly bad color job. I find that wierd given that my hair should be highly porous due to chemical and mechanical damage, so it should love protein, right? I think possibly I need to fork out the $80 for the detailed hair analysis.

One thing I also learned pre-CG is that my hair really doesn't like a ton of product in it. The problem with CG is that they push product in layers, and I can't seem to get that right. I need to back off for a while and just stick with condish only styling.
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002
IMO protein loving/ sensitive is a spectrum - protein is wonderful for fine hairs and porous hair BUT it can be drying in excess, and porous hair is easily dried out. Balance is key for almost everyone.

Do be aware hydrolysed protein had two major roles - it can penetrate as far as the cortex and can coat the surface acting as a film former. There are slightly different effects from each.

My hair is currently loving a protein rich leave in almost every wash but it likes just a little oil in the mix, a few washes without any oil and I lose all the protein benefits. Balance! I don't think it's that my hair likes or dislikes the amount of protein, it just does like too much left on the surface drying it out, again that seems to work best in balance with emollients.

And for me the protein does not work at all with every styler, DISASTER with my favourite humectant (propylene glycol) rich gel. Individually great but so not together, I get frizz and lose the clumps. If conditioner only works for you go for it.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
IMO protein loving/ sensitive is a spectrum - protein is wonderful for fine hairs and porous hair BUT it can be drying in excess, and porous hair is easily dried out. Balance is key for almost everyone.

Do be aware hydrolysed protein had two major roles - it can penetrate as far as the cortex and can coat the surface acting as a film former. There are slightly different effects from each.

My hair is currently loving a protein rich leave in almost every wash but it likes just a little oil in the mix, a few washes without any oil and I lose all the protein benefits. Balance! I don't think it's that my hair likes or dislikes the amount of protein, it just does like too much left on the surface drying it out, again that seems to work best in balance with emollients.

And for me the protein does not work at all with every styler, DISASTER with my favourite humectant (propylene glycol) rich gel. Individually great but so not together, I get frizz and lose the clumps. If conditioner only works for you go for it.
Originally Posted by Firefox7275
I feel like I almost need to start from square one. Yesterday my hair was so-so, I used the tiniest amount of the SM condish mixed with a very small amount of KCKT for styling and a tad bit of LA naturals mixed with water on the canopy. Had decent 2nd day hair this morning, I did add a little more LA naturals, and my hair is just so tangly and my ends feel absolutely gross. Gotta be some serious buildup there for that to happen. I am just at a loss as to what to do so maybe I need to just start over with all new products. What would be your suggestions for product and routine given what you know about my hair?
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
I I'm going through the same thing. Overnight my hair went from fantastic to terrible and I haven't been able to get back. I know the date - 6/26.It was great for my daughter's graduation, then became a mess. Today I was thinking I was glad it was back in pre-cg shape. My ends have been especially bad - hard and splaying out from each other. My hair has felt like I can't get it moisturized no matter what I do. I definitely feel like I'm starting over.

Since I found that the PT worked for me, I've been upping the protein. I think this weekend I'll clarify again, then do an hour PT followed by an hour DT. I plan to use a protein rich leave in every wash. I added some Npf to my leave-in the last couple of washes and it was better. I've switched to Renpure (red) as my daily conditioner and I've also tried Darcy Botanicals pumpkin. I ordered two Nature's Gate high protein conditioners from iherb and they should be here tomorrow.

I don't know if this was a product reaction, but if so, it could have been the DevaCare no poo or TN moisture as a leave-in. I won't be using either of those again.

I gave up on stylers for now. I don't want to confuse things I'm only using a LI out of the shower. I need to be able to gauge the health of my hair on a daily basis for now.

Anyway - I wanted you to know you're not alone!
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285

Last edited by CurlyGrey3; 07-15-2013 at 06:25 PM.
I I'm going through the same thing. Overnight my hair went from fantastic to terrible and I haven't been able to get back. I know the date - 6/26.It was great for my daughter's graduation, then became a mess. Today I was thinking I was glad it was back in pre-cg shape. My ends have been especially bad - hard and splaying out from each other. My hair has felt like I can't get it moisturized no matter what I do. I definitely feel like I'm starting over.

Since I found that the PT worked for me, I've been upping the protein. I think this weekend I'll clarify again, then do an hour PT followed by an hour DT. I plan to use a protein rich leave in every wash. I added some Npf to my leave-in the last couple of washes and it was better. I've switched to Renpure (red) as my daily conditioner and I've also tried Darcy Botanicals pumpkin. I ordered two Nature's Gate high protein conditioners from iherb and they should be here tomorrow.

I don't know if this was a product reaction, but if so, it could have been the DevaCare no poo or TN moisture as a leave-in. I won't be using either of those again.

I gave up on stylers for now. I don't want to confuse things I'm only using a LI out of the shower. I need to be able to gauge the health of my hair on a daily basis for now.

Anyway - I wanted you to know you're not alone!
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3
I never knew it was going to be this difficult to find what works for me. I have committed to six months of this. Good thing I am the stubborn type who stick to something once I commit. Problem is that I suspect I will get it figured out then the weather will change on me!
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
Haha. I know what you mean. It never occurred to me it would be this hard. I thought that at worst, my hair would still be better than before CG. I did send away for a hair analysis so at least I'll know if my assumptions are correct.
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
Haha. I know what you mean. It never occurred to me it would be this hard. I thought that at worst, my hair would still be better than before CG. I did send away for a hair analysis so at least I'll know if my assumptions are correct.
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3
I wonder if part of our problem is a mix of different hair types. I see that you are salt n pepper - which usually means that your Grey's are more course than your non- grays. My grays are way more coarse than my non-gray hair. And then add in my processed blow-out fried hair and its a recipie for disaster.
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
Yeah, I was thinking that too. My grays are definitely in worse shape. I specifically asked them to analyze my gray and pigmented hair.

I've been having some luck with coconut oil. I smoothed some on my hands and worked it into my worst parts (mostly gray) last night. I also scrunched some into my ends. This morning it was all absorbed and felt softer, although my hair is straighter and frizzy from working it through and the humidity. I'm just ignoring how it looks at the moment. :-)
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
I feel like I almost need to start from square one. Yesterday my hair was so-so, I used the tiniest amount of the SM condish mixed with a very small amount of KCKT for styling and a tad bit of LA naturals mixed with water on the canopy. Had decent 2nd day hair this morning, I did add a little more LA naturals, and my hair is just so tangly and my ends feel absolutely gross. Gotta be some serious buildup there for that to happen. I am just at a loss as to what to do so maybe I need to just start over with all new products. What would be your suggestions for product and routine given what you know about my hair?
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002
Looking at your signature you are using a lot of different products, you might try using the same conditioner for two or three tasks - wash, rinse out, leave in. That might not give you wonderful hair but it will mean you can clearly see which one works and which does not. And then just one styler, again so you can see what they do. Also try using way more leave in conditioner, that will help your hair retain the right amount of water, is important for clumping/ frizz control, perhaps for protecting your hair from harsher styling products.

With very high dews humectants are likely to be a problem - especially glycerin. Any product that does not work for you put on the swap board, or put in your cupboard until the weather changes, your hair might like it in winter. Tangling or crunchy can be build up but it can also just be the wrong products/ ingredients drying your hair out.

KCKT is a detangler not a conditioner, it's also pH 7 which can encourage the cuticle to lift. This is a problem in high dews and in porous/ damaged hair anyway. Conditioners are generally lower pH to encourage the cuticle to lay flat after shampooing. Some gels are higher pH, might be worth getting some pH strips and testing your products.

Not all polyquats are 'bad', some are water soluble some are not. What is in your shampoo is likely to more build up at the roots, since presumably you use that there. Shea butter can also build up as you have a lot of that is your arsenal.

My porous/ damaged hair did well with products containing some natural oils at the beginning. I did a lot of conditioner only styling when I didn't have to look my best, really on the basis it would 'nourish' rather than damage my hair. Now I have grown out the worst of the damage I have backed off on oils somewhat and am using more film formers - hydrolysed protein, flaxseed gel, have not yet tried okra gel.

I have struggled to make commercial gels work for me, they seem to make my hair feel dry and wooly by day two even with piles of leave in conditioner underneath. My favourite one contains propylene glycol and glycerin (both humectants) and xanthan gum (film former!) but it doesn't work in all weathers.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
I'm just ignoring how it looks at the moment. :-)
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3
Yeah that's what I've been doing. I'M clarifying tonight followed by a DT and going to not use coconut oil for the first time since starting CG. I'm actually looking forward to it. Not a sulfate but I don't have any sulfates without polyquats so its what ive got right now.
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
I feel like I almost need to start from square one. Yesterday my hair was so-so, I used the tiniest amount of the SM condish mixed with a very small amount of KCKT for styling and a tad bit of LA naturals mixed with water on the canopy. Had decent 2nd day hair this morning, I did add a little more LA naturals, and my hair is just so tangly and my ends feel absolutely gross. Gotta be some serious buildup there for that to happen. I am just at a loss as to what to do so maybe I need to just start over with all new products. What would be your suggestions for product and routine given what you know about my hair?
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002
Looking at your signature you are using a lot of different products, you might try using the same conditioner for two or three tasks - wash, rinse out, leave in. That might not give you wonderful hair but it will mean you can clearly see which one works and which does not. And then just one styler, again so you can see what they do. Also try using way more leave in conditioner, that will help your hair retain the right amount of water, is important for clumping/ frizz control, perhaps for protecting your hair from harsher styling products.

With very high dews humectants are likely to be a problem - especially glycerin. Any product that does not work for you put on the swap board, or put in your cupboard until the weather changes, your hair might like it in winter. Tangling or crunchy can be build up but it can also just be the wrong products/ ingredients drying your hair out.

KCKT is a detangler not a conditioner, it's also pH 7 which can encourage the cuticle to lift. This is a problem in high dews and in porous/ damaged hair anyway. Conditioners are generally lower pH to encourage the cuticle to lay flat after shampooing. Some gels are higher pH, might be worth getting some pH strips and testing your products.

Not all polyquats are 'bad', some are water soluble some are not. What is in your shampoo is likely to more build up at the roots, since presumably you use that there. Shea butter can also build up as you have a lot of that is your arsenal.

My porous/ damaged hair did well with products containing some natural oils at the beginning. I did a lot of conditioner only styling when I didn't have to look my best, really on the basis it would 'nourish' rather than damage my hair. Now I have grown out the worst of the damage I have backed off on oils somewhat and am using more film formers - hydrolysed protein, flaxseed gel, have not yet tried okra gel.

I have struggled to make commercial gels work for me, they seem to make my hair feel dry and wooly by day two even with piles of leave in conditioner underneath. My favourite one contains propylene glycol and glycerin (both humectants) and xanthan gum (film former!) but it doesn't work in all weathers.
Originally Posted by Firefox7275
I have lots of research to do. Right now the only thing I'm sure about is my curl junkie. I didn't realize that KCKT can act as a humectant even though it has no humectants due to PH. This is so difficult. I have actually always had problems with gel. The only one I found that worked was biolage curl defining elixir but it has polyquat 4, PEG 60 castor oil, and PEG dimethicone. I am at the point where I'm considering adding a cone.
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
EDIT: I'm looking at your siggy. I wouldn't use the SM milk for the above purpose because it has some protein and it's full of anti-humectants which is not exactly what dry hair needs. I see you have CJ Rehab... use some of that... dilute it with water if necessary.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
So you are saying don't use the SM milk for styling? I have been using it, but am not sure I like it. I have however, been using a small amount of the SM condish mixed with a little KCKT for a leave in. At first I loved that, but not so sure now. Here is what I am aiming for in my routine right now, although I am not there yet with 70+ dews is as follows:

1. Cowash.
2. RO with a very good condish that is high in behentrimonium methylsulfate and also has some panthenol.
3. Leave -in with some oils for sealing/anti-humectant qualitites.
4. Light gel for topping the canopy, frizz control only.

I would like to get to a point that I only low-poo maybe once or twice a month. Right now I am using it anywhere from 1-2x per week. Thoughts?
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002
I meant don't use the SM if you're feeling overproteined, as in right after you did your DT/PT because the SM Milk is more like a sealer and it has some protein so it wouldn't be the right choice if your hair is buggin out on protein.

Your plan sounds good to me!

It's hard to say how often to low-poo. Personally I don't think low-pooing 1x a month is enough but i understand this is personal. Anyway, if buildup from something, possibly polyquats is a possibility I don't think low-pooing less would be a good move, at least for now.... unless your current low poo also has polyquats.
fine - normal porosity*?- medium density - normal elasticity. Hard water. SoCal.
*Used to be low-porosity, but I lightened my hair 1-2 shades, so I may be normal-porosity now.

New climate! Current favorites:
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni SaS
RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: JC Confident Coils, JC Rockin Ringlets, CJ CIAB, gelatin gel

iherb discount code: CFN646
I think maybe I added too much protein in this last PT/DT, it feels just like your description - crispy and a lot like tangled dolls hair. I may lay off on the protein for a while. I have known for years that my hair doesn't really like protein in large amounts - I have always preferred "moisturizing" products versus "reconstructive" products except for rare occaisions following a particularly bad color job. I find that wierd given that my hair should be highly porous due to chemical and mechanical damage, so it should love protein, right? I think possibly I need to fork out the $80 for the detailed hair analysis.
Originally Posted by alslgirl2002
It's very possible that it was too much protein for you, especially since overnight, but if you are truly damaged you will need some protein.... maybe not regularly but definitely a lighter PT every once in a while. By the sounds of it, you're probably one of those that HAS to do a DT after every PT.
fine - normal porosity*?- medium density - normal elasticity. Hard water. SoCal.
*Used to be low-porosity, but I lightened my hair 1-2 shades, so I may be normal-porosity now.

New climate! Current favorites:
Low-poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo, Giovanni SaS
RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: CJ Repair Me, IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: JC Confident Coils, JC Rockin Ringlets, CJ CIAB, gelatin gel

iherb discount code: CFN646
So sorry I'm just seeing this thread now. OP- what was your hair routine BEFORE CG? The whole routine.

And after your PT/DT, what is your routine the next few days?

From what I understand, you low poo with Deva, condition with SM, then use a mix of SM & KCKT as a LI and don't use any stylers. Is that right?

And, is frizz your main complaint since going CG? Does it frizz as the day goes on, or is the frizz there in the morning right out of the shower?
2C/ Coarse/ Normal porosity/ SW Florida/ Salt & Pepper
Cleanse: CJ Daily Fix, JC Cleansing Cream, TJ Tea Tree Condish
Condish: JC Too Shea, CJ Curl Rehab (both as RO & LI)
Stylers: UFD CM, CJ PP, JC Spiralicious, Darcy's Cream Gel & Cocoa bean whip

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