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-   -   Could I need MORE protein? (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/160358-could-i-need-more-protein.html)

alslgirl2002 07-10-2013 03:13 PM

Could I need MORE protein?
 
We have been having 65-75 degree dews for the last several weeks, with the past week being consistently 70+. I feel like my hair doesn't really like leave in products/stylers with protein, but it seems to love my PT followed by overnight DT mixed with coconut oil. I haven't tracked it yet, but it seems as if I have my best hair days with the least frizz just following a PT and as the week goes on, my hair just gets more and more frizzy, even with the same methods. So could it just be that my hair wants more protein? Given that my hair doesn't seem to like LI and stylers with protein, I am thinking that maybe I need to find a RO with more protein? Here's what I'm using when I wash n style:

Cowash Deva Care, RO - SM cocnut and hibiscus, LI KCKT+SM cocnut and hibiscus, SM curl milk with a bit of Giovanni LA Naturals Firm Hold Gel just on my upper canopy for frizz control.

I have had some really good results with this combo, including one day when I spent hours in 70+ dews outdoors with no frizz. But like I said, as I get further away from PT/DT, the frizz just gets crazy! I can't really PT/DT more than once per week, it just takes way too much time. But I thought that it wouldn't be too difficult to do a quick PT in the shower if I could find something I liked and didn't need to prepare in advance. What about either more protein in my cowash or RO? I'm open to any and all suggestions for dealing with this frizz!

wavydaze 07-10-2013 03:20 PM

Hey there! I use and like the SM Coconut/Hibiscus line, BUT it doesn't have hydrolized protein in it. (It basically means that the silk protein in the SM line is not as effective).

From what you describe, yes your hair probably needs more protein and you should probably add in at least an RO w/ hydrolized protein in order to maintain your protein levels in between PTs. Hope this helps!

EDIT: you can also get Colorful Neutral Protein Filler from Sally's and add a few drops to the SM conditioners you already have.

wavydaze 07-10-2013 03:24 PM

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlta...ditioners.html

I thought this was helpful

Firefox7275 07-10-2013 03:33 PM

If you are following the protein treatment with coconut oil how do you know it is the protein that is giving you the positive results? It could easily be either or the combination. Protein will take time to penetrate rather than simply adhering to the surface, you likely won't get much if any penetration over the duration of your shower.

Have you tried cutting back on the shea butter? That can build up which may cause frizz. Also are you using enough true conditioning agents/ emollients? Cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols help with clumping and frizz control, KCKT contains almost none of these, is there plenty in your Shea Moisture?

Hootenanny 07-10-2013 04:29 PM

Just want to say that I agree with Wavydaze that Colorful Neutral Protein Filler is a great way to add a shot of protein to your hair quite easily. If I were you, I'd add a few drops to the SM leave-in and see how that goes for you! :)

Samanthascurlz 07-10-2013 05:41 PM

For a protein treatment, I really like IAGirl's! :)

alslgirl2002 07-10-2013 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samanthascurlz (Post 2189534)
For a protein treatment, I really like IAGirl's! :)

That is what I am using, but I don't do it with heat, I do the lazy application and just put it in during the shower.

alslgirl2002 07-10-2013 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefox7275 (Post 2189493)
If you are following the protein treatment with coconut oil how do you know it is the protein that is giving you the positive results? It could easily be either or the combination. Protein will take time to penetrate rather than simply adhering to the surface, you likely won't get much if any penetration over the duration of your shower.

Have you tried cutting back on the shea butter? That can build up which may cause frizz. Also are you using enough true conditioning agents/ emollients? Cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols help with clumping and frizz control, KCKT contains almost none of these, is there plenty in your Shea Moisture?

You are right, I really don't know which is giving me the results, the PT or the DT. I use IAGirls PT with the lazy application and just rinse out following shaving, but I don't wash it out. I'm pretty sure that my DT contains some really good cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, but I have to double check the SM line, it is pretty heavy on the oils and shea which if I remember correctly do not fall in those categories. I definitely have some research to do!

alslgirl2002 07-10-2013 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2189490)
Hey there! I use and like the SM Coconut/Hibiscus line, BUT it doesn't have hydrolized protein in it. (It basically means that the silk protein in the SM line is not as effective).

From what you describe, yes your hair probably needs more protein and you should probably add in at least an RO w/ hydrolized protein in order to maintain your protein levels in between PTs. Hope this helps!

EDIT: you can also get Colorful Neutral Protein Filler from Sally's and add a few drops to the SM conditioners you already have.

I will have to seing by sally's and see if this helps. This way I can check out additional protein with my existing routine without committing to a full bottle of something new!

Firefox7275 07-10-2013 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2189545)
You are right, I really don't know which is giving me the results, the PT or the DT. I use IAGirls PT with the lazy application and just rinse out following shaving, but I don't wash it out. I'm pretty sure that my DT contains some really good cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, but I have to double check the SM line, it is pretty heavy on the oils and shea which if I remember correctly do not fall in those categories. I definitely have some research to do!

In that case my gut instinct would be that the coconut oil rather than the protein is making the main difference, since you are leaving that in long enough to penetrate. You can also do hydrolysed protein treatments overnight instead of using heat if that suits time wise.

wavydaze 07-10-2013 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefox7275 (Post 2189548)
Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2189545)
You are right, I really don't know which is giving me the results, the PT or the DT. I use IAGirls PT with the lazy application and just rinse out following shaving, but I don't wash it out. I'm pretty sure that my DT contains some really good cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, but I have to double check the SM line, it is pretty heavy on the oils and shea which if I remember correctly do not fall in those categories. I definitely have some research to do!

In that case my gut instinct would be that the coconut oil rather than the protein is making the main difference, since you are leaving that in long enough to penetrate. You can also do hydrolysed protein treatments overnight instead of using heat if that suits time wise.

I don't think that this is necessarily true. I've done IAgirl's PT and left it on for only 5 minutes to very good results. We've had this discussion before. You pointed out that according to Natural Haven, there is aDsorption and not as much if any absorption in a PT that isn't left on very long. This may be true, but the aDsorption may still be helping her, as it helps me as well and others.

When I do coconut DTs on the other hand, the effect lasts for a long time, as it should because according to multiple posts you've written, it can really penetrate the shaft which makes it such a wonderful ingredient. It makes more sense to me that her hair is getting frizzy in between PTs and not coconut oil DTs. It is much easier to lose protein (especially aDsorbed protein) than it is to lose the effects of coconut oil. The effects of a coconut oil DT should definitely last longer than 5 days. Proteins on the other hand can wash out with each cleansing session.

With that in mind alslgirl, I would also try doing the heated version of the gelatin PT, keep it in for longer so it can properly aBsorb, see if that helps.

If you get the Colorful Neutral Protein Filler and put it in a leave-in as well that should help as it will definitely have time to absorb.

I do agree with you, Firefox, that she may be better off backing off the shea butter. My RO is very different from my SM LI; that's probably why the combination works me. I get moisture from my RO and seal it with my shea-buttery LI, and that works for me in high-dews (conditioner-only styling).
As it stands alslgirl, your hair's diet may not be varied enough. Hope this helps! :)

alslgirl2002 07-11-2013 08:01 AM

On the shea butter topic, I did consider that the last two times I washed. I could feel a little stiffness in some parts of my hair which tells me that there was some build up. Obviously I can fix that with a low-poo, but I suppose I could also start reducing it in my routine so.... apparently I need to do some shopping! Ahhh yes, I have been waiting for this!

I have been ogling the Spiral Solutions Repairing PT, but have not wanted to go overboard on protein until I was more confident that my hair was craving it. I like this product because not only does it have a bunch of hydrolized proteins, but it also has a good amount of cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols so I can get a nice DT along with a good shot of protein at the same time. Thoughts on this?

I also need a tub of my regular DT so combined, I should need to purchase one more product to hit the magical $50 for free shipping. How should I spend the rest of my $10 at curlmart? I think I should start with a new RO since I am 100% sure that my great hair is coming from the SM condish mixed with KCKT. I also won't feel so bad getting a new RO since I will still use the SM RO as a LI. Thoughts on a new RO? This will be one step forward in reducing the shea in my routine.

Firefox7275 07-11-2013 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2189561)

"In that case my gut instinct would be that the coconut oil rather than the protein is making the main difference, since you are leaving that in long enough to penetrate. You can also do hydrolysed protein treatments overnight instead of using heat if that suits time wise."

I don't think that this is necessarily true. I've done IAgirl's PT and left it on for only 5 minutes to very good results. We've had this discussion before. You pointed out that according to Natural Haven, there is aDsorption and not as much if any absorption in a PT that isn't left on very long. This may be true, but the aDsorption may still be helping her, as it helps me as well and others.

When I do coconut DTs on the other hand, the effect lasts for a long time, as it should because according to multiple posts you've written, it can really penetrate the shaft which makes it such a wonderful ingredient. It makes more sense to me that her hair is getting frizzy in between PTs and not coconut oil DTs. It is much easier to lose protein (especially aDsorbed protein) than it is to lose the effects of coconut oil. The effects of a coconut oil DT should definitely last longer than 5 days. Proteins on the other hand can wash out with each cleansing session.

No we have not "discussed this", you haven't read my comments properly and then disputed, in fact much of what you have said here agrees with my previous posts on the topic!

I have clearly stated the protein is unlikely to penetrate or aBsorb into the cortex, to me that makes it not acting as a deep treatment. That is my gut instinct or semi educated opinion based on the studies using much longer time scales and knowing that diffusion is a slow process and even temporary bonding is not instantaneous.

I have never suggested there are no benefits to or no results from from using hydrolysed protein as a superficial agent, indeed I use it myself in both my leave in conditioners. As you acknowledge at best that is protein aDsorbing or acting as a film former, not proof that it has penetrated.

As I understand it, if very short processing times are using the protein will simply lay on to the surface, not bond to the hair and wash away easily at the next wash. The deep treatment can very easily shift protein that is not bonded to the hair, yet it seems to be after both the protein and the oil treatment that the OP reports the improvements.

If longer processing times are used or some heat or the product is allowed to dry hydrolysed protein can form temporary bonds that will endure through a number of washes, if even longer processing times are used hydrolysed protein can slowly diffuses right into the cortex. Much of this is dependent on the damage to and porosity of the hair, the level of aDsorption and aBsorption won't be the same for all.

A modest amount of protein used at each of a number of successive washes can accumulate to give progressively 'better' results, but again this is not what the OP is doing. Some of the benefits of coconut oil can also last one or two washes, any remaining fatty acids which are coating the surface and encouraging capillary adhesion or clumping or frizz reduction.

HTH.

alslgirl2002 07-11-2013 08:31 AM

Friefox and Wavydaze - BOTH your comments have helped me tremedously, even if the two of you are coming from different angles ;-)

It is clear to me that I need to continue with the coconut oil DT, but add in a protein laden DT, and cut down on the shea. Since I DT every or so days, this shouldn't be a problem. I also just bought a hot bonnet, so I am going to be able to add heat to my DT routine. All I need now is a new RO.

alslgirl2002 07-11-2013 08:38 AM

How about CJ Beauticurls? I little pricey, but the ingredients look nice - I like that it also has panthenol, something I'd like to add to my routine.

Water, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Esters, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Virgin Coconut) Oil, Panthenol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Yucca Leaf Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Piperita (Peppermint) Leaf Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Leaf Extract, Propylene Glycol, Iodopropylnyl Butylcarbamate, Fragrance, Citric Acid.

wavydaze 07-11-2013 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2189706)
I have been ogling the Spiral Solutions Repairing PT, but have not wanted to go overboard on protein until I was more confident that my hair was craving it. I like this product because not only does it have a bunch of hydrolized proteins, but it also has a good amount of cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols so I can get a nice DT along with a good shot of protein at the same time. Thoughts on this?

I really like the SS PT. You'll probably need some moisture afterward but it can come from an RO. I know some people always DT after a PT but it really depends on your hair. I never do.

wavydaze 07-11-2013 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alslgirl2002 (Post 2189714)
How about CJ Beauticurls? I little pricey, but the ingredients look nice - I like that it also has panthenol, something I'd like to add to my routine.

Water, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Esters, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Virgin Coconut) Oil, Panthenol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Yucca Leaf Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Piperita (Peppermint) Leaf Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Leaf Extract, Propylene Glycol, Iodopropylnyl Butylcarbamate, Fragrance, Citric Acid.

I would recommend getting an RO with more protein.

If you're interested in CJ there is:

Repair Me:

Ingredients: Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Hydrolyzed Keratin Protein, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Panthenol, Keratin Amino Acids, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Glyceryl Stearate, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Glycol Stearate, Prunus Armeniaca (Apricot) Kernel Oil, Cetyl Alcohol, PEG-100 Stearate, Tocopherol Acetate, Citric Acid, Disodium EDTA, Fragrance, Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate.

^This is more of a PT, but I hear it is moisturizing as well. My protein-lovin hair could probably easily nom this as an RO (obviously you'd need to leave it on for longer for full effects, but even 5 min in the shower while you shave etc helps)

There is the CJ Strengthening Conditioner:

Ingredients: Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Vegetable Glycerin, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Panthenol, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin Seed) Oil, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Leaf Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Piperita (Peppermint) Leaf Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Yucca Leaf Extract, Keratin Amino Acids, Polyquaternium-7, Lecithin, Fragrance, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol.

^Although I feel that the Keratin Amino Acids are way too far down on the list (and possibly too small) to really make this a difference....


The SS Caitlin's Conditioner is nice:

Ingredients: distilled water, behentrimonium methosulfate (and) cetearyl alcohol, babassu oil, vegetable glycerine, meadowfoam seed oil, stearyl alcohol, avocado oil, hydrolyzed oat protein, hydrolyzed jojoba protein, hydrolyzed silk, panthenol, glyceryl stearate, phenoxyethanol (and) caprylyl glycol (and) sorbic acid, aloe vera powder, essential oil blend, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, tocopherol, citric acid


If I were you I'd go for the Caitlin's or CJ Repair Me. I know CJ has a following but honestly I think the products are crazy expensive and I haven't been impressed by the few products I've tried. That's just my opinion.

There's also other much cheaper brands that have protein rich conditioners: Mill Creek (Keratin, Biotin), Nature's Gate Biotin (Others have protein as well), EO Keratin

wavydaze 07-11-2013 09:07 AM

*Sorry meant to add that the CJ Repair Me does look good!

Firefox7275 07-11-2013 09:13 AM

Completely agree with WavyDaze, much prefer the look of the Spiral Solutions repairing treatment or CJ Repair Me to the CJ Beauticurls. I am very wary of waxy cetyl esters since a bad experience with the new formula Fructis Triple Nutrition. CJ Strengthening looks pricey for the ingredients.

CurlyGrey3 07-11-2013 10:18 AM

I've been following this thread because I'm having similar issues and I think my hair properties are close to the OP.

Firefox - your explanation matches my experience. My hair was curlier and less flyaway after I did the gelatin PT, but it didn't last. I feel like I need to do another one after only a couple of washes.

I guess the right thing to do it use smaller amounts of protein in more products and/or do longer treatments with protein or coconut oil. I might have to try overnight coconut oil again, but with much less oil next time.

What problem did you have with cetyl esters? Is that the same as emollient esters? If so, Tonya McKay mentions them as a potentially problematic occlusive agent in this article:

Hair Moisturizer vs. Emollients


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