Does anyone with loose waves find clumps DON'T work for them?

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Funny you say that, when I do all the curly styling (scrunching in everything, plopping etc) I do get spirals and rope curls which are definitely not typical of 2a so I do think I'm more 2b/c on those days and people have definitely called my hair "curly" as opposed to "wavy" then. But then it loosens so much overnight!

It has identity issues.
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646

Last edited by wavydaze; 07-16-2013 at 10:21 PM.
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 939
I think wavies are more sensitive about it, since all anyone can ever talk about it is "how to get more curl", but everyone's hair loosens. If you had a really tight curl pattern it would simply be called stretching. I have a very strong curl pattern, but it's still tightest on day 1. Sleeping on your warm mammal head creates a moderate straightening effect + gravity and tension...these things escape no one.

Exhibit A - http://youtu.be/_ljNt5gKPLw
heyho and wavydaze like this.

Last edited by Jessiebanana; 07-16-2013 at 10:34 PM.
Wow, Wavydaze your hair is gorgeous! Makes me want to try conditioner only styling with SSCC. When you use it do you diffuse, air dry, plop? On day 2 and 3 you don't do anything to touch up your hair? I do agree that your hair is much more 2C.
2a-2bFii NP?

Low poo: Deva Low-Poo, Jessicurl GLS, Moroccanoil Volumizing Shampoo, Aveda Be Curly
Condish: Cure Care, Redken Body Full, Deva One C, and Jessicurl Aloeba
LI: Aveda Be Curly Style Prep <3
Products: Deva FFVF & Jessicurl Spiralicious (LOVE), TRESemme Curl Boosting Mousse
Hairspray: Aussie Sprunch, TRESemme Curl
locking Spray
Experimenting with lots of products in my cabinet...


My hair loves protein, plopping, and diffusing! Trying to find a way to style and air dry.
Wow, Wavydaze your hair is gorgeous! Makes me want to try conditioner only styling with SSCC. When you use it do you diffuse, air dry, plop? On day 2 and 3 you don't do anything to touch up your hair? I do agree that your hair is much more 2C.
Originally Posted by AKgirl
What I've been seeking lately with all this is just how lazy I could be... so air dry and day 2 + 3 I don't do a thing.
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
Omg wavydaze you have amazing hair. I want to try conditioner only styling and see if i get a softer look with less of a producty feel.

Exactly what is your wash day routine?

Sent from my HUAWEI-M931 using CurlTalk App
2b, Fine, Low density, Normal porosity.

Currently using but not sure if i'm loving:

Lo-poo: SM yucca
Co-wash: Suave Naturals Coconut
LI: SM yucca Milk, Suave Naturals Coconut
Gel: LA Looks Mega Hold (Green), LA Looks NutraCurl with Avocado

Sometimes I pixie diffuse, Always towel turban, Finally stopped touching while wet , Always SOTC, lose curl definition and get frizzy after a few hours.

Live in Miami where it's really HUMID
Ok, I blued myself.

These are examples of conditioner-only styling. The ones where I'm wearing the blue top (I'm so sorry my bathing suit is showing it's pretty uhhhh anyway) I used the SM C&S Milk. This was second day hair. As you can see the waves are pretty loose, so I would consider the curl pattern 2a here. I was happy with how my hair looked considering this was after trying on a bunch of clothes.

In the pic where my face was cropped, that was the 1st day hair for the blue-top pics. Weird right? It looks much better second day, even if it's looser. It felt a little gunky 1st day and looks more... stringy?

Recently I've been playing with not doing anything to enhance the curl, in fact i've been mostly discouraging it.... raking in products, not plopping, sometimes scrunching the bottom after raking but not always.

My hair is waviest on day 1. When I sleep my waves get smashed so day 2 & 3 are always 2a with the odd 2b bits.

The one where I'm wearing the blown-out apricot-colored shirt was using the same techniques but using Caitlin's Conditioner. This was 3rd day hair.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
!!!!!holy cow!!!! I would take ANY of those days!!!! Beautiful!!!
You can see my wavy tutorials here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ZNxhBHSXAW40OQ and my wavy blog is The Wavy Nation http://wavynation.wordpress.com
Hair envy.

I tried conditioner only and end up with a frizzy, poofy mess. I have none of your shine and..sleekness? I have a rats nest. You have the perfect quintessential beach waves- you're very lucky!

After reading this thread I've been seriously trying to not clump and achieve a softer look, but to no avail. The only way to control my frizz is to have it soaked/clumped into a curl. It's a bummer because I have low density hair, too, and it looks so much thicker when it's not clumped!
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
WavyRoo I agree with all of that, except that I have a lot of hair so with conditioner only it's poofy and big! I seem to need the gel to keep it contained while it's drying.
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
Some of the pics really show how I'm still growing out a thinned-out haircut - the bottom is so sad and loses curl. This is more obvious when I go for noodle-look. When it's softer/more 2a it hides it better.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
Wow, this totally makes sense for me now, as I'm too, am growing out a thinned-out haircut; the parts that are losing curl, are where it was thinned. Thanks wavydaze!

Am going to try conditioner only styling this weekend. Today I didn't use any gel, only Eco Styler and it was pretty decent.
Thank you for your kind words!

To be fair, these were my best hair days this month... my hair doesn't always look like that and is definitely prone to the hippie/70's rock band look which I don't care for.

I don't know what y'all's dews are like but in high dews I must use a conditioner w/ anti-humectants high on the list as my leave-in for conditioner-only styling.

Janicke... I've been alternating low-poos with SM Coconut/Hibiscus shampoo and Giovanni TTTT. I've been using NG Jojoba rinse out, then raking in either the SM or SS Caitlin's as my leave-in.

Wavyroo... I think the selection of conditioner is important, definitely re: humectants/anti-humectants. Have you tried using jelly products? You can still style clumped, but the clumps will turn soft and may give you what you're looking for.
Geek_Chic likes this.
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646

Last edited by wavydaze; 07-18-2013 at 10:25 AM.
I did my hair 3 times today (I'm a stay at home mom so i have time to experiment). I used different leave in conditioners and neither one gave me results even remotely close to your hair wavydaze. it was just terrible!
So, I'll stick to gel, crunch, and producty-ness.

Sent from my HUAWEI-M931 using CurlTalk App
2b, Fine, Low density, Normal porosity.

Currently using but not sure if i'm loving:

Lo-poo: SM yucca
Co-wash: Suave Naturals Coconut
LI: SM yucca Milk, Suave Naturals Coconut
Gel: LA Looks Mega Hold (Green), LA Looks NutraCurl with Avocado

Sometimes I pixie diffuse, Always towel turban, Finally stopped touching while wet , Always SOTC, lose curl definition and get frizzy after a few hours.

Live in Miami where it's really HUMID
Funny you say that, when I do all the curly styling (scrunching in everything, plopping etc) I do get spirals and rope curls which are definitely not typical of 2a so I do think I'm more 2b/c on those days and people have definitely called my hair "curly" as opposed to "wavy" then. But then it loosens so much overnight!

It has identity issues.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
My hair has *serious* identity issues. So much so that in my entire life my hair has confused every single stylist I've been to (let's just say that's quite a few stylists). Some words stylists have used to describe my hair are: weird, confused mix, damaged (in referring to my top most layer), odd, and abnormal.

I even had one stylist, who after washing my hair saw the waves/curls, asked me when my last perm had been. I told her I hadn't had a perm in over 15 years. She flat out told me I was lying because she could tell I'd had a perm due to the fact that certain sections of my hair were curly while other sections of my hair had already "grown out" the perm. "Natural" curly hair didn't have such wide ranges of curl and no curl. I really wish I'd gotten up and walked out right then, but I didn't. Oh, the things we wish we'd have done after the fact, eh?

If you divide my hair into two layers, top layer and underneath layer, they look very different. The top layer is only slightly wavy and once I've slept on it the wave is pretty much gone. It then is pretty straight. The underneath layer is very wavy and will turn into curls. Day 1 is really wavy, day 2 and 3 I have ringlets.

You can't really see the ringlets unless I lift my top layer of basically straight hair. It's like half my head is curly and half is straight. Frustrating to say the least. I've mentioned before that I wish I could chop off the top layer and have my curly hair take over all over my head.

I have no working camera or I would post pics.


I want to try conditioner only styling. I have no idea what conditioner to use. I live in an area with dews in the 70s right now. So that means I don't want humectants and I do want anti-humectants. Yes? Okay, so what the heck are those things? What ingredients specifically?

Last edited by kleinehexe; 07-17-2013 at 09:22 PM.
Hey WavyDaze, what's your favorite anti-humectant conditioner?

I have tried both the SM soufflé and KCCC of course- both leave me stringy. But I may try the SM milk. I haven't tried that yet. What condish do you pair with it?
2C normal/high porosity?, medium/coarse texture, lower density
Cleanse: Pura D'Or every week or two, Yes to Cukes
Conditioner: VO5 Kiwi Lime (LOVE!), Tresemme Naturals, YTC
DT: GVP Conditioning Balm w/ coconut oil
LI: a touch of JCTS
Products: my HG is Tresemme Bouncy Curls Defining Gel mixed with a touch of BRHG over a little flax seed gel, SM Souflee/Milk for 2nd day hair, occasionally Bioterra Curling Creme and Gel
Modified CG since November 2012- finally found what works!
If you divide my hair into two layers, top layer and underneath layer, they look very different. The top layer is only slightly wavy and once I've slept on it the wave is pretty much gone. It then is pretty straight. The underneath layer is very wavy and will turn into curls. Day 1 is really wavy, day 2 and 3 I have ringlets.

You can't really see the ringlets unless I lift my top layer of basically straight hair. It's like half my head is curly and half is straight. Frustrating to say the least. I've mentioned before that I wish I could chop off the top layer and have my curly hair take over all over my head.
Originally Posted by kleinehexe
Keep trying different products and ingredients and techniques, you might never get uniform hair but it can improve. My back section is usually 2a and my front 2c, I finally after about two years of half hearted effort started to get a decent wave/ even loose sausage curls once or twice. This is since I started using way more hydrolysed protein in my leave in and more water (scrunch less out and add it back), The absolute best day was protein and water but also after a coconut oil treatment.

Bear in mind your canopy could be slightly dryer and/ or more damaged and/ or more porous than the protected underlayers - the canopy gets more sun and wind, maybe the shower beating down, more brushing or combing. The difference doesn't have to be major to affect your results.

All the 'curl chemist' articles here on NC by Tonya McKay are useful, also the Natural Haven blog - between them you will be an ingredient expert.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlre...-care-products
kleinehexe likes this.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
Wavydaze, it sounds like we've been doing nearly the same thing. I have the same properties as you but medium width. I've been getting similar results to yours (except that, like Chupie, I even like day 1!). I love simplifying (AKA being lazy) and I'm so happy with this technique and the outcome.

I love that I can run my fingers through my hair and not worry about breaking up fragile curls formed by a styling product! It feels like me and my hair are on the same side at last - I can't be bothered to go back to jelly, even sporadically.

I use any low poo without anionic surfactants, then Tresemme Naturals Nourishing Moisture as my conditioner - no glycerin, also it doesn't make my acne-prone skin flare up as much as other conditioners I've tried - plus wide tooth comb and curl cloth, and voila
You can't really see the ringlets unless I lift my top layer of basically straight hair. It's like half my head is curly and half is straight. Frustrating to say the least. I've mentioned before that I wish I could chop off the top layer and have my curly hair take over all over my head.
Originally Posted by kleinehexe
My top layer is wavy and my bottom layer is ringlets/tubes. My top layer is also much drier and most of my gray is there, so I need to try to work on the moisture in the top. The worst is when the top gets big and looks like a shelf with the ringlets sticking out underneath!
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285
Hey WavyDaze, what's your favorite anti-humectant conditioner?

I have tried both the SM soufflé and KCCC of course- both leave me stringy. But I may try the SM milk. I haven't tried that yet. What condish do you pair with it?
Originally Posted by WavyRoo
For my rinse-out I'm currently using Nature's Gate Jojoba... I'm going to finish it and then probably go for the Biotin one or the Mill Creek Keratin or Biotin. For my rinse out I look out for fatty alcohols, panthenol, cationic surfactants. Humectants are ok! (Second ingredient in my NG Jojoba rinse-out). I also look for hydrolized protein bc my fine hair noms protein.

For my leave-in (especially for conditioner-only styling) I look for anti-humectants (oils) in the top few ingredients. Babassu oil is the 3rd non-water ingredient in Caitlin's. Shea butter and coconut oil are the 2nd and 3rd ingredients in the SM Milk. Another leave-in that I've liked (and forgot to mention) was the Alba Botanica LI. Coconut oil is the 3rd ingredient. Both Caitlin's and the AB LI have glycerin, but listed after the oil so I find it's ok. I get a little bit more frizz w/ Caitlin's but nothing major. I also like to look for protein in my LI, both SM and SS Caitlin's have protein (hydrolized in Caitlin's). AB LI does not have protein, and is very rich (but I wouldn't say heavy) so I stopped using it because I would get OC-ed but recently I've been thinking of adding CNPF to it and trying again.

EDIT: I basically want to add that currently, because of the high dews I want my RO and LI to complement each other. My LIs have been "seal-y" (so full of oils) while my ROs have more humectants, moisturizers and conditioning agents in higher concentration. This way my hair has a "balanced diet." I wouldn't use SM for both RO and LI because my hair wouldn't be properly moisturized. And I couldn't use the NG Jojoba or SSI Okra as leave-ins (in conditioner-only styling) because the humectants would be a no-go in my high dews. I basically get moisture/conditioning from my RO and sealing/conditioning from my LI. Hope this makes sense!
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646

Last edited by wavydaze; 07-18-2013 at 10:33 AM.
I have tried both the SM soufflé and KCCC of course- both leave me stringy. But I may try the SM milk. I haven't tried that yet. What condish do you pair with it?
Originally Posted by WavyRoo
From what I gather SM soufflé and KCCC are sugary jellies and so styling products not conditioners.... you probably know this but you followed from "conditioners" so I just wanted to put that out there for any newbies.

I wasn't crazy about KCCC... a lot goes into the right application and amount of product necessary. Less is more I found, also I can't be overzealous in scrunching (or scrunch and pumping)... once the sugary cast is made if I do anything to "upset" it, it gets weirdly gunky. KCCC just didn't stand up to high dews for me... and having to top it with another product (like a hard hold gel) seemed ridiculous to me considering the price. Haven't tried the SM Soufflé but it is somewhat similar from what I've been reading.

The stringy-ness that you're getting could be down to technique and amount you're using.

When I want clumps I apply leave-in and styling products to soaking wet hair and then do the ice-queen method (a quick rinse of cold water on top... is that the ice queen?). Some "grabby" leave-ins can promote clumpage as well. Definitely no raking in product here and the more water the better.
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
You can't really see the ringlets unless I lift my top layer of basically straight hair. It's like half my head is curly and half is straight. Frustrating to say the least. I've mentioned before that I wish I could chop off the top layer and have my curly hair take over all over my head.
Originally Posted by kleinehexe
My top layer is wavy and my bottom layer is ringlets/tubes. My top layer is also much drier and most of my gray is there, so I need to try to work on the moisture in the top. The worst is when the top gets big and looks like a shelf with the ringlets sticking out underneath!
Originally Posted by CurlyGrey3
So I'm not the only one. You'd think I'd have come across at least one stylist then who realized it is normal.

So how do you make sure the top gets moisture without the under layer getting too much?

I tried conditioner styling today. My top layer looks soft and shiny (with some frizz) but my underneath layer looks greasy.

Is this greasy look and feel mean over conditioned?

I used Everyday Shea Moisturizing Shampoo, followed by Suave Naturals Aloe conditioner (rinsed out and then a small amount put back in), then I used a bit of GF Pure and Clean conditioner for the styling.

I think I have frizz because both the conditioners have humectants. I think. It's not a lot of frizz just light surface layer.

What bothers me is the oily look. I've tried with and without conditioner leave in. Didn't make a difference.

Again, the top layer looks good, but I have thin density and the bottom layer pokes through and it looks greasy.
I'm not sure my hair can get over moisturized. :-) Too much oil will make it greasy, though.

Are you using any oils or butters? They might be too heavy for your under layer. What's in that shampoo?
Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
Current favorites:
Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
Style: FSG, BRHG
Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

iHerb discount code: PNQ285

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