Here I go again...

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SERIOUSLY bad hair days. I even broke down and used a bit of oil to seal; not helpful.

Nothing seems to be preventing frizz, poor curl retention and just plain ugly.

Using: SN and CH low poos; or Yes to Cukes. TN conditioner or Yes to Cukes conditioner. Deva foam and some Volumax gel over that. I get frizz at t he top; if the top looked like my nice spirals at t he bottom, I would be happy.

No glycerin. I'm stumped.
Why do you say oil is not helpful? Are you using enough conditioner? I can't follow acronyms, sorry, and those are not in the sticky. What are your dew points and properties? Glycerin is not the only potent humectant, have you looked at the balance of the others (propylene glycol, honey, aloe vera etc)?
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
1. Oil is not preventing frizz, or defining my curls. It may be making them softer but I dont need that.
2. The humidity here is high and it is near 90 degrees.
3. The acronyms are Shea Moisture Moisture Retention, Coconut Hibiscus (shampoos); TN is Tresemme Naturals conditioner.
4. Both styling products have propylene Glycol; its in the middle of the list of ingredients in the gel; toward the end of the list in the foam.

5. No honey or aloe in either styling product; there may be some in the conditioner but I doubt that is the problem because I have low porosity hair, medium, coarse.

comments appreciated.
Just a thought, I get really frizzy up top if I use Yes to Cucumbers Low Poo and I don't put any conditioner on top afterwards. I have to use a rich conditioner (Curl Junkie Argan & Olive Oil) all over and if I don't, I get that frizzy top that you are talking about.

Even lowpooing roughs up our hair and dries it out. I have been alternating lowpooing and cowashing and on the days I cowash I use the lightest conditioner I have just on the lower half of my hair.

I know a lot of people love Tresemme Naturals conditioner, but it made my hair feel gross afterwards. I guess I'm turning into a product snob

Could it also be a build up of shea butter from the moisture retention poo?

Have you ever tried Biosilk Rock Hard Gelee?

Last edited by sheilacurl; 07-18-2013 at 08:37 PM.
Myrna, would you please post everything that you know about your hair - what is the hair type, what are the properties? Are you happy with your haircut?

Meanwhile, try keeping a hair journal. The first day, just poo and conditioner and something very simple.
Each day, change or add something. Keep a record - note the dews (you can find out from Frizz Forecast - search for it here on nc.com) for each day. That way, you'll be better able to tell what works and what doesn't work.

Also, you may be one of those people who does better with sulfates and silicones. But I would try those one at a time also. I am using them during the summer when the dews are high and so far, it's working better for me.

HTH. I'll read back and see what your hair type and properties are and hopefully others will chime in also.
sheilacurl likes this.
2/c and some 3A.
Protein sensitive but can use occasionally
Highly porous. Color over grey.
Best 1st day method: Super Soaker
Stylers: Mix Curls in a Bottle into everything for shine. Terrible pj
Sometimes try roller sets - classic glamor but I prefer my curls.
Every day is a gift
Sheila, I cannot figure out if I need a lighter or heavier conditioner, that is one issue. I dont use the Moisture REtention every day, I rotate, in fact, I use that one less, because I think it is better in the cold weather.

I hate BRHG. I have used it. Its like glue.. or shellac. At least it is on my hair.
sheilacurl likes this.
Curlypearl:

I have 2 kinds of Yes to Cukes - one with sulfates, and one without. I cannot say I see a huge difference. I do feel my hair benefits occasionally from a sulfate shampoo, but I "low poo" every day, so I dont want to go back to sulfates. I have used stylers with cones - like Ouidad Climate Control - but I dont like them either. Frizz.

OK, my hair: I like the cut; it doesnt get cut much, but when it does it is a Deva method. The sides used to be much shorter layers, and that has b een growing out for over a year.

I get my roots touched up every 3-4 weeks because it grows fast and when the silver grows in, it looks like my hair is thinning at the part - which is it is not.

It is coarse, low porosity, and medium thickness/texture. The curls now are a mix of 3A and 3B. The curls at the top and sides dont keep their shape as much as the curl at the bottom, which is nice spirals.

CP, I have tried doing what you suggest, Dusa also suggested it - but it is still so trial and error. I can do X,Y and Z one day, and get great hair - do the same thing the next day and it looks totally different. Even with similar weather conditions. I dont know if this is a problem particular to low porosity curlies, but it sure is frustrating!!

Is there anything else you want to know about my hair? it is mid back in the back. I dont plop - I use roller jaw clips. I also scrunch with a towel before I apply product. From what I know, for LP gals, it doesnt matter if the product is applied to damp as opposed to soaking wet hair because our hair does not absorb product much. I suspect this is the problem, but I dont know what to do about it. Waaaahh!!
Have you tried the standard clarify, PT then DT to "reset" things? I think Jaz says that's what always works for her when her hair starts acting up.
3A - C, HP, ME, HD. (Coarse, High Porosity, Medium Elasticity, High Density.)

CG since Nov. 2012

Poos: SM Moisture Retention + Yucca Baobab, TJ's Tea Tree Tingle
Condish: TJ 'sTea Tree Tingle*, SM Moisture Retention* + Curl & Shine + Yucca Baobab, Yes to Blueberries
Stylers: KCKT*, SM Curl Enhancing Smoothie* + Curl & Style Milk*, KCCC*, FSG*, CJ Pattern Pusha, Curl Keeper
Sealers: Jojoba* or Grapeseed* oil

* = HG

Myrna, does your hair feel a bit dry or maybe too mushy? And what are the dews like where you live right now? Is there any way you could style your hair so that you might pin your frizzier canopy back? I had to do that today because I was trying on clothes when I was shopping and the top got messy. I pinned it back and just like you (I think we have similar curl patterns, although I have some 2C as well) I have sturdier ringlets that are always A-OK and resistant to ruffling underneath.
3A - C, HP, ME, HD. (Coarse, High Porosity, Medium Elasticity, High Density.)

CG since Nov. 2012

Poos: SM Moisture Retention + Yucca Baobab, TJ's Tea Tree Tingle
Condish: TJ 'sTea Tree Tingle*, SM Moisture Retention* + Curl & Shine + Yucca Baobab, Yes to Blueberries
Stylers: KCKT*, SM Curl Enhancing Smoothie* + Curl & Style Milk*, KCCC*, FSG*, CJ Pattern Pusha, Curl Keeper
Sealers: Jojoba* or Grapeseed* oil

* = HG

Dusa: the dews are high 60's and 70's, and I can tell you, I dont have a clue as to what t hat means for my hair. Your hair is a lot like mine, except yours is HP and mine is LP. I dont think it feels either dry or mushy and I am not sure what mushy is, except that I think it might mean over conditioned.

If the sides were longer, I could pin the canopy back, I did that years and years ago , but the sides are growing out and it is taking a while. I have nice curl formation at the bottom - just not at the top and sides by the end of the day. I also have some 2C, I believe. I was 2C before I became CG. In fact my hair was a lot easier to style and get looking good before I was CG, when I used sulfates and a hair dryer every day. I am wondering if I should go back to those days, at least to the styling products I used to use - Tousle me Softly mousse, and Biolage gel. Biolage gel has glycerin, though.

I occasionally use a sulfate poo, and a deep conditioner, but it only gives me good hair for t hat day. I know it works for Jaz, but her hair is very different.

I am sorry if I sound negative, I dont mean to, I just cannot get it right!
You don't sound negative-- just frustrated. Understandable.

60's and 70's means you have to watch your use of humectants because they'll slurp all the moisture out of the atmosphere and make your hair big and frizzy. It's really hard to find products without humectants though. I'd tell you to make some humectant free FSG but I know you don't like to make it yourself. :/ I promise you it's quite easy though if you get desperate.

Mushy means really really soft. Also symptomatic of overconditioned hair is a loss of definition and the hair gets frizzy and flyaway, like a cloud. But then hair that's not getting enough moisture will be frizzy too. So you really have to feel your hair. For me, I know when I wet my hair in the shower is when I can best tell how moisturized it is. Too much. Too little. If it turns to silk, I'm good. If not, it's dry. If it turns to sloppy silk, I overdid it on the moisture.

I was also 2C before I became CG! Okay, well, we're getting somewhere then. Curl pattern does matter sometimes. . . too bad your hair hasn't grown out enough to pin back quite yet. I think if you have to go back to sulfates and silicone just for the summer, well, it's not the end of the world. Maybe you might try your old styling products and find the silicones aren't building up as quickly. And you could use a low poo of sorts with lower sulfate content. If that makes the problem worse you can always come back to CG. Isn't biolage gel CG though? Or was it bioterra? I don't know. I get them confused in my head sometimes. Oh, and some people even in humid climates can use glycerin without it causing frizz. I think I remember mhen76 (was that her name?) saying she had no problem with glycerin in any dew point.

Yes, Jaz has fine very porous hair. But her curl pattern is similar to ours at least. And I only mentioned the clarify, PT then DT reset because I'm coarse (albeit porous) and I recently did a brief PT and overnight DT and it set my hair to rights. I didn't clarify though as there was no need but some people do it just to be on the safe side. The PT I did was a gelatin pack, pure gelatin (aside from a bit of vinegar) and the whole pack. But I only left it in like 15-20 minutes, tops. The DT I did was just some Shea Moisture restorative conditioner and coconut oil.
3A - C, HP, ME, HD. (Coarse, High Porosity, Medium Elasticity, High Density.)

CG since Nov. 2012

Poos: SM Moisture Retention + Yucca Baobab, TJ's Tea Tree Tingle
Condish: TJ 'sTea Tree Tingle*, SM Moisture Retention* + Curl & Shine + Yucca Baobab, Yes to Blueberries
Stylers: KCKT*, SM Curl Enhancing Smoothie* + Curl & Style Milk*, KCCC*, FSG*, CJ Pattern Pusha, Curl Keeper
Sealers: Jojoba* or Grapeseed* oil

* = HG

Dusa, you are always so helpful. Cant we have coffee tomorrow after work and discuss this? oh thats right, you live at least 1200 miles away. Dang.

Ok. Well, t he thing is, I never really liked silicones. They didnt do much for my hair. my gel(Volumax) and my foam ( Deva) dont have glycerin. I thought glycerin ws the problem (remember, I was using CK, and I got convinced to quit that, at least for the summer?) So I did.

Tomorrow I am going back to Tousle me Softly - which is CG - with some Volumax Gel. I'd hate to think my Deva foam is the culprit but it has a ton of ingredients in it. Maybe I need to simplify.

I have thought of trying the Coconut Hibiscus Milk, but I am not sure what that would do for my hair...
curlypearl likes this.
Does the Deva foam have polyquats? Could it be buildup? I know several people have problems with polyquats, 4, 7 and 10 being the main offenders. I'm just throwing yet another thing out there.
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
yes it does, polyquat 60 whatever t hat is. Everything has polyquats. I think, though, if I wash daily, build up is not the problem.
Dusa, you are always so helpful. Cant we have coffee tomorrow after work and discuss this? oh thats right, you live at least 1200 miles away. Dang.

Ok. Well, t he thing is, I never really liked silicones. They didnt do much for my hair. my gel(Volumax) and my foam ( Deva) dont have glycerin. I thought glycerin ws the problem (remember, I was using CK, and I got convinced to quit that, at least for the summer?) So I did.

Tomorrow I am going back to Tousle me Softly - which is CG - with some Volumax Gel. I'd hate to think my Deva foam is the culprit but it has a ton of ingredients in it. Maybe I need to simplify.

I have thought of trying the Coconut Hibiscus Milk, but I am not sure what that would do for my hair...
Originally Posted by Myrna
Oh my goodness Myrna I would love to have coffee with you. I often say that to my other curly friend I met on here who lives on the opposite side of the country. All my closest friends right now live far away so I only see them on weekends. We usually meet halfway.

I remember the whole CK debacle. Glycerin was the main suspect but you know what--it's really low on the ingredient list. Also the polyquat in it didn't give me any buildup or trouble when I was experimenting. And for what it's worth, curly guru Waterlily716 calls that product her HG but most especially in the summer and her curl pattern is similar to ours and I suspect she's anywhere from coarse to medium coarse in her hair width. (Albeit she's porous.) She also claims that the CK really helps with frizz. TBH when I was experimenting with it that's the only thing I found it helped with. I'd sweep it over my canopy after a sweaty workout if I wasn't gonna wash my hair that night because I didn't have time and it would kill the frizz. Speaking of frizz-killing, I love the curl and style milk. When I got back from the shop earlier I just put swept some on top of my dry canopy and outer layers and scrunched up and to the sides. It wasn't messy anymore and the curls bounced right back so I could wear my hair unpinned again. I know low porosity curlies can't always do this (putting products in dry hair to refresh) though because it won't penetrate. But maybe it might make for a good leave in. It's also glycerin free, I think. I'd recommend getting it at Walgreens because you could always return it afterwards, right?
curlypearl likes this.
3A - C, HP, ME, HD. (Coarse, High Porosity, Medium Elasticity, High Density.)

CG since Nov. 2012

Poos: SM Moisture Retention + Yucca Baobab, TJ's Tea Tree Tingle
Condish: TJ 'sTea Tree Tingle*, SM Moisture Retention* + Curl & Shine + Yucca Baobab, Yes to Blueberries
Stylers: KCKT*, SM Curl Enhancing Smoothie* + Curl & Style Milk*, KCCC*, FSG*, CJ Pattern Pusha, Curl Keeper
Sealers: Jojoba* or Grapeseed* oil

* = HG

Myrna, we have talked about having similar hair before. I have been having good success this summer with Yes To Carrots shampoo just on my scalp and not all of my hair. I use a very small amount. Then I let Yes To Carrots conditioner sit in my hair while I do my other stuff in the shower then I rinse it. I then use more Yes To Carrots as leave in right before I get of the shower. Then I use a small amount of Shea Moisture Curl Enhancing Smoothie but I don't feel like that does much to help with frizz. It just gives the curls a boost. Some days I go without it and my hair is fine. Your suggestion of clipping has also really helped because I don't find myself touching my hair as much while it dries to keep it from going flat. Have you ever tried Yes To Carrots or Leave In? I can't remember what you said about Leave In and it's hard to go back and look on my phone. Am I the only curly who likes this kind of weather? It really amps my curls up the way I like and it usually just does its own naturally curly thing without a lot of force and struggle from me. I love that. That slight amount of frizz that comes with the weather is totally worth it. Oooh, totally forgot. I have been using the Shea Moisture Curl and Shine spray or whatever it's called quite heavily. I think it really helps with frizz. I spray it on last before I leave the house while my hair is still damp.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using CurlTalk App
2C, low porosity, high density, coarse, shoulder length No sulfates, no parabens, no silicones
Shampoo- Shea Moisture Coconut Hibiscus, Giovanni Smooth As Silk, Deva No Poo, Nature's Gate Aloe Vera, Yes To Carrots
Conditioner- Shea Moisture Curl & Style Milk, Giovanni Smooth As Silk, Deva One Condition, Nature's Gate Aloe Vera, Yes To Carrots
Styler- Shea Moisture Curl Enhancing Smoothie, Shea Moisture Shine & Hold Mist, Yes to Carrots Leave In and Yes To Carrots Anti-Frizz Serum
Pianogirl, I have been using the Yes to Cucumbers shampoo and conditioner. I have so many conditioners I hesitate to purchase more! but I will keep it in mind, especially as it comes so highly recommended by you. What do you style with??

Dusa, you also really get this. Nope, I cannot put products in dry hair, that is a total disaster. Exception: CK. Yup. I think that with my hair, less is more. So this morning, I washed with Yes to Cucumbers; conditioned with TB (the smoothing formula, I had been using the moisturizing formula) and left some in, which I have not been doing. I applied CK (here I go again) and just a small bit of the Volumax because I doubt CK by itself will hold in this weather. I am keeping my hopes realisically moderate. I will report back this evening. I did not use the Deva foam, because...Im not sure. I just did not think it was a good combo with CK. It is a good, a terrific product, but by itself it is not enough hold, and it has a ton of ingredients, so if something is reacting to the humidity and giving me frizz, damned if I know what it is. Maybe one of our experts out there will look at the ingredients and give me an analysis of that product. I looked at my old mousses, including Pantene, which is a really firm holding mousse, but you know, mousses all have alcohol, and I am not sure I want to do that right now....Thanks so much, everyone.
dusalocks likes this.
1. Oil is not preventing frizz, or defining my curls. It may be making them softer but I dont need that.
2. The humidity here is high and it is near 90 degrees.
3. The acronyms are Shea Moisture Moisture Retention, Coconut Hibiscus (shampoos); TN is Tresemme Naturals conditioner.
4. Both styling products have propylene Glycol; its in the middle of the list of ingredients in the gel; toward the end of the list in the foam.

5. No honey or aloe in either styling product; there may be some in the conditioner but I doubt that is the problem because I have low porosity hair, medium, coarse.

comments appreciated.
Originally Posted by Myrna
You have low porosity hair but it's permanently dyed? That is unusual, are you sure, could it have changed somewhat? Is the canopy possibly sun damaged, that would increase porosity there.

I would lose the propylene glycol in such high dews. There is aloe vera in the Tresemme Naturals I think and in the Shea Moisture shampoos, tho hopefully not enough to make a difference since it is washed out.

I wonder if you need a richer conditioner, not necessarily heavier. Something without humectants but plenty of fatty alcohols and a little natural oil as these ingredients can increase clumping and capillary adhesion. Oil within a conditioner base is much easier to distribute without getting the greasies than when used straight up. Shea butter can build up for some people as can cetyl esters.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect
Firefly: I get my roots done every 3-4 weeks. I have not had color ullled through to the ends in years. I cannot even remember the last time. So it is not damaged from color.

Again, almost everything has propylene glycol.

Do you have a conditioner suggestion that meets the criteria you suggested? pls remember that I have coarse, low porosity hair, so products can "sit" on my hair...
I don't have your hair properties, but I do notice that in the humid WI weather, especially since I started using henna (I'm wondering if henna reduced my porosity), products tend to sit on my hair. I absolutely have to keep moisture to a minimum, and I have to use less styling product. I even have to change how I apply product in the summer. In the winter, I remove excess water from my hair before I put my styling products in. In the summer, I have to do the exact opposite -put styling products in and then use a towel to blot out excess water.
dusalocks likes this.
2C/3A, fine, higher porosity.

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