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Noedles 07-27-2013 05:05 AM

Confused CG here, please help!
 
Hello fellow curlyheads,

First of all I want to introduce myself, since I'm kinda new here: My name is NoŽlle, I'm 17 years old and I'm from the Netherlands. I am CG since 23/05/2013, noy very long, but I am obsessed haha.

My hair properties (?) are:
2C/3A
Medium porosity with some porous parts
Medium texture with some fine and some coarse strands
High density

I'm not 100% sure about the porosity and texture.

I have two issues:
1. I am struggeling with the question if my hair needs more moisture or (more) protein.
2. I had more curls in the past (in the ends) when I used siliconens and sulfates.

1: I have read a loooot of blogpost and threads here on this forumboard, but I am still not sure about moisture and proteins. My hair isn't cracky or brittle, it is soft and fluffy. But, when I did the porosity strand test, I got the squeek-sound, which I read, refers to dry hair. Now I'm afraid that I have, or dry hair and need moisture or protein (not sure which one), or I am overconditioned, since it's so soft. Maybe handy information: It has been so soft since I cut my hair a week ago from waistlength to shoulderlength (I'm going to donate it for wigs).

I just realized after writing this whole story: Yesterday I let it dry without leave-in and with Curl Keeper and it's kind of dry now, not very, but a little bit. It was so extremely soft when I only put leave-in in it.

2: A few years back I discovered I have curls, I always thought I had wavy hair and brushed it every morning which gave me like a huge fluffy frizzy hairdo. When I got layers cut I found out I have curls and since then I am obsessed with them. The first 2 years I used products with a lot of silicones an sulfates in them without knowing it and my hair was very fluffy in the upperlayers and I had ringlets like these in the ends:

Hairstyles ringlet curls. : Hairstyle 2013

I didn't want the frizzyness in the upperlayers anymore, so I searced for solutions and found out about natural haircare: the CG method. I tried it for a few months, but it didn't work It thought. That was wrong, because I just didn't do it well. Then I found Lush, which I thought had natural haircare, but when I decided to try the CG method the proper way again, I found out there are sulfates in their products. The weird thing is: when I used the Lush products, I got some of the ringlets in the ends back. I would love to get the ringlets back, because I loved them. But it seems like they only come when I use 'bad' haircare??? Maybe I should try proteins, but then I come back to problem 1: if it will be bad for my hair.
Maybe so other handy information: When I used the bad products, I got more ringlets by using a curl activator. The ingredients of that activator are:

Aqua, Alcohol Denat., PVP/VA
Copolymer, PEG-12 dimethicone,
castor oil, dimethicone,
propyl pg-betaine,
propylene glycol,
parfum, limonene.

I know: Try before asking, but I have bought so much products before and I am so confused because there is SO much information.

When more information about my hair or the products that I use is needed, please tell me.

Hopefully some people can help me.

Love, NoŽlle

Firefox7275 07-27-2013 10:00 AM

Welcome! You also need to consider your dew points/ humidity, if you have a smartphone download the free 'Curls on the Go' app. Curl Keeper is very heavy on humectants (glycerin and propylene glycol) so can be wonderful or terrible depending on your hair properties and dew points. Ideally use a leave in conditioner with Curl Keeper, it's not a conditioner.

Protein can strengthen hair and can also boost curl but too much is drying for some, powerful humectants can hold too much water close to hair and weigh it down or can just define they don't usually boost curl. You don't have to go all-or-nothing with protein, just try something gentle/ weak and use a stronger product later if you get good results.

Since you are in Europe a lovely reasonably priced product is Schwarzkopf Gliss (Kur) ultimate volume conditioner: this contains plenty of hydrolysed protein and panthenol, is CG friendly. I get great results from this as a leave in (but start just as wash out conditioner to see how your hair responds) - lots of curl, shine, softness and definition even when used with no styling product.

Morgan_Adcock 07-27-2013 01:50 PM

With hair which is neither fine nor coarse, you should be able to use some protein, and some oil. Since you've been avoiding protein, I'd suggest trying it in moderation.

The curl activator has dimethicone, which is an unmodified silicone, in addition to PEG-12 dimethicone, which is water soluble. If you're not shampooing, you're not removing it, and that would flatten your curl. Since you want to try CGing, I would suggest avoiding it.

I don't know if you get to the UK at all, or know anyone who does, but if you could get your hands on Boots Curl Creme (pink), it would be a much better choice.

Another option is to make your own linseed gel (here we call it flaxseed gel, and you'll see it abbreviated as FSG). I use about 30 ml of linseeds to about 500 ml of water. It helps to let the linseeds soak overnight, then cook the linseeds in the water they were soaking in. Cook the linseeds at a simmer over medium until the liquid drops off a spoon like nectar or honey. (It will thicken to the consistency of thick nasal mucus.) Add a pinch of table salt, sea salt, or epsom salts to the water (after soaking) as a curl activator. Strain the seeds out with a fine mesh strainer. You can add a bit of aloe vera gel (I just put one glug or plop in), a few drops of essential oil(s) you like for fragrance, and/or several drops of grapefruit seed extract as a natural , albeit weak, preservative. Wisk everything together, and pour into a clean, empty, hair product container or containers. Store in the fridge between uses, unless it's just a matter of days.

Noedles 07-27-2013 02:46 PM

Edit: Sorry, didn't refresh the page ;)

Noedles 07-27-2013 02:58 PM

Thanks for your replies!
I have downloaded the Curls on the go app, so I'm going to experiment with that. I'll take a look at the Gliss Kur conditioner as well, didn't know that there was a conditioner of Gliss Kur without tons of silicones, so that's great news ;)

I won't go to the UK/London very soon, but I'll keep it in mind, it sounds great!
I know that there are silicones in the curl booster spray, but my question was more about the fact that I did get more curls from it (duh), but I found it so strange that I didn't get the same curling results with this method.
And I had already heard about the selfmade gelthinghy, am really going to try that out. Does it work as a gel and curl booster at the same time?

Again, thanks!

Morgan_Adcock 07-27-2013 07:45 PM

Quote:

Does it work as a gel and curl booster at the same time?
Yes.

Firefox7275 07-28-2013 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2194864)
Thanks for your replies!
I have downloaded the Curls on the go app, so I'm going to experiment with that. I'll take a look at the Gliss Kur conditioner as well, didn't know that there was a conditioner of Gliss Kur without tons of silicones, so that's great news ;)

I won't go to the UK/London very soon, but I'll keep it in mind, it sounds great!
I know that there are silicones in the curl booster spray, but my question was more about the fact that I did get more curls from it (duh), but I found it so strange that I didn't get the same curling results with this method.
And I had already heard about the selfmade gelthinghy, am really going to try that out. Does it work as a gel and curl booster at the same time?

Again, thanks!

There's also drying alcohol as the second ingredient in that activator, that is worse than the silicone IMO. You can add magnesium sulphate (epsom salts) to flaxseed gel for more of a curl boost, but that can be drying so don't overuse it. I would make you recipe super simple initially, if you add multiple ingredients you won't know which works and which does not.

Magnesium Sulfate: Curly Friend or Foe?
Proteins: Why You Should Care

Noedles 07-28-2013 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefox7275 (Post 2195078)

There's also drying alcohol as the second ingredient in that activator, that is worse than the silicone IMO. You can add magnesium sulphate (epsom salts) to flaxseed gel for more of a curl boost, but that can be drying so don't overuse it. I would make you recipe super simple initially, if you add multiple ingredients you won't know which works and which does not.

Magnesium Sulfate: Curly Friend or Foe?
Proteins: Why You Should Care

Thanks! But isn't it weird that I had more curls at that time, than now, while there are alcohol and silicones in it? That just bothering me.

Noedles 08-25-2013 02:10 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Ok, I have found some pictures of my curls-journey. I'm still hoping someone can help me with my problem.

Photo 1: Around 13 yo, thought I had wavy hair, always brushed it.

Photo 2: Around 14 yo, had my hair cut in layers that day, learned I shouldn't brush it when being dry.

Photo 3: Around 14 yo, having layers for a few months

Photo 4: Around 15 yo, doing more hairmasks + used a con without silicones without knowing it

Photo 5: 17 yo, two months ago, first day being CG

I just find it so strange that my hair looked more moisturized when I used more agressive and bad ingredients in my hair care. Here's one of the ingredient lists of one of the product of the brand I used: http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/a...gredienten.jpg

What can I do best? Maybe I should try a conditioner with watersolutable silicones? Maybe I should try oils to seal? I'm just thinking I need more sealing since my hair looked more curly (more frizzy too though, that's the reason too why I began with the experimenting) when I used silicones. Anyone with me or having better advice or tips?

sarahspins 08-25-2013 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203110)
I just find it so strange that my hair looked more moisturized when I used more agressive and bad ingredients in my hair care.

It's not actually that surprising... hair may "look" one way and physically be another story completely. Sulfates/silicones are incredibly drying to the hair.. you need the sulfates to strip the silicones off, the silicones "hide" the drying damage done by the sulfates, etc... that's the bad cycle we break using the CG method. I think sometimes dry hair can also seem lighter and bouncier which are things we often associate with being in "better" shape but it's not always the truth.

When you first go CG and stop that cycle your hair can look worse for a while. Your hair is damaged and nothing is "hiding" it now. Your hair will eventually recover, but I think a lot of that process has to do with figuring out what works well for your hair and how to bring out the qualities you appreciated before, but in a healthier manner.

I found that personally I need a LOT more moisture in my hair than I ever thought possible. I also need way more gel than I thought was realistic. I've also found some products that just don't agree with my hair - leaving it flat, heavy, and often with a gummy/sticky feeling. When I get it right, I have soft, bouncy, and shiny curls.

Firefox7275 08-25-2013 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203110)
I just find it so strange that my hair looked more moisturized when I used more agressive and bad ingredients in my hair care. Here's one of the ingredient lists of one of the product of the brand I used:

What can I do best? Maybe I should try a conditioner with watersolutable silicones? Maybe I should try oils to seal? I'm just thinking I need more sealing since my hair looked more curly (more frizzy too though, that's the reason too why I began with the experimenting) when I used silicones. Anyone with me or having better advice or tips?

What do you mean by moisturised? If you mean shine then that is nothing to do with moisture (= water) in the cortex, that is either to do with a healthy cuticle laying flat or a layer of plastics of other ingredients coating your hair - faux shine and slip is exactly what silicones are designed to do. Actually hair that contains too much moisture will swell and frizz, it won't shine.

What are you using at present? Did you try hydrolysed protein or magnesium sulphate for curl boost? Protein can also help the cuticle lay flat and give shine. That Gliss Kur is all over Europe not UK only or I wouldn't have mentioned it.

chupie 08-25-2013 04:22 PM

Check out Waterlily's vids. http://youtu.be/oYH_AhRMM4Y

Noedles 08-25-2013 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarahspins (Post 2203130)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203110)
I just find it so strange that my hair looked more moisturized when I used more agressive and bad ingredients in my hair care.

It's not actually that surprising... hair may "look" one way and physically be another story completely. Sulfates/silicones are incredibly drying to the hair.. you need the sulfates to strip the silicones off, the silicones "hide" the drying damage done by the sulfates, etc... that's the bad cycle we break using the CG method. I think sometimes dry hair can also seem lighter and bouncier which are things we often associate with being in "better" shape but it's not always the truth.

When you first go CG and stop that cycle your hair can look worse for a while. Your hair is damaged and nothing is "hiding" it now. Your hair will eventually recover, but I think a lot of that process has to do with figuring out what works well for your hair and how to bring out the qualities you appreciated before, but in a healthier manner.

I found that personally I need a LOT more moisture in my hair than I ever thought possible. I also need way more gel than I thought was realistic. I've also found some products that just don't agree with my hair - leaving it flat, heavy, and often with a gummy/sticky feeling. When I get it right, I have soft, bouncy, and shiny curls.

Yes, that makes sense, didn't think of it that way. I'm just very scared to overcondition my hair, I really don't know why, haha.

My hair is actually lighter and bouncier now I don't use silicones anymore, though. Really like that because I think my scalp really didn't like that and I won't have to cut my hair because it's getting to heavy.

One thing I just don't get (because I now understand that your hair looks healthier when using silicones because of the coating they create), is how my curl pattern was more curlier when my hair got less moisture and protein, since your curl pattern increases if you find the good balance in those, right? I think that just makes my head spinning.

Thanks for the advice!

Noedles 08-25-2013 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firefox7275 (Post 2203137)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203110)
I just find it so strange that my hair looked more moisturized when I used more agressive and bad ingredients in my hair care. Here's one of the ingredient lists of one of the product of the brand I used:

What can I do best? Maybe I should try a conditioner with watersolutable silicones? Maybe I should try oils to seal? I'm just thinking I need more sealing since my hair looked more curly (more frizzy too though, that's the reason too why I began with the experimenting) when I used silicones. Anyone with me or having better advice or tips?

What do you mean by moisturised? If you mean shine then that is nothing to do with moisture (= water) in the cortex, that is either to do with a healthy cuticle laying flat or a layer of plastics of other ingredients coating your hair - faux shine and slip is exactly what silicones are designed to do. Actually hair that contains too much moisture will swell and frizz, it won't shine.

What are you using at present? Did you try hydrolysed protein or magnesium sulphate for curl boost? Protein can also help the cuticle lay flat and give shine. That Gliss Kur is all over Europe not UK only or I wouldn't have mentioned it.

By moisturized I mean that it looks healthy and that the curls are defined, I guess. Since you need moisture to get that result.

Right now I'm using these products:
Wash: Hegron Aloe Vera conditioner
Condition: Dr Organics Olive Oil/Honey conditioner
Leave-in: Hegron Aloe Vera conditioner
Multiple gels and mousses (without harsh ingredients)

I have tried a protein treatment (the one with gelatin) and wasn't that excited about it. But it was just once and I put egg yolk in it, which I read about, isn't that good for a protein treatment.

And yes, I know Gliss Kur, they sell it here too. I just don't like pharmacy products that much, because I think they prefer to put chemical ingredients in them instead of oils, while oils are natural and can achieve the same (or even better) results.

Noedles 08-25-2013 05:20 PM

Okay, I have another question. Yes, I'm full of questions, I never stop.

The question is about porosity, I can't figure it out. I first thought I was medium/high porosity (read the first post), but it just seams that my hair won't soak moisture in. But I just have the feeling too that I can't have low porosity too, because I did the test and catched up bumps and my hair isn't like some 3C haired girls where the water just lays on the hair. The other option is that I have high porosity and that the moisture leaves my hair too quickly. If that's the case, I'll have to seal my hair more (maybe with oils) and add more moisture in my daily care, I guess?

When I straighten my hair, I don't ever have to straighten it again till the next washing session (about 3/4 days later). Does this have to do something with the porosity or with the texture?

Half of this post was just me talking to myself, figuring out what's inside my head.
Hopefully the sentences aren't that bad. It's night over here and I really need to go to bed. :laughing9:

_Eva_ 08-26-2013 01:34 AM

The products you use contain loads of humectants and no protein at all. Maybe your styling products do, but you did not mention which you are using.

If you are medium for both texture and porosity, you may need some protein. You mention that your hair cannot seem to soak up moisure. What makes you say so? What do you experience?

You also mention that you did not like the protein treatment. What treatment did you use exactly? How long did you leave it on? And how did your hair feel afterwards?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203160)
By moisturized I mean that it looks healthy and that the curls are defined, I guess. Since you need moisture to get that result.

That depends on your hair properties. Someone with fine hair mainly needs protein to achieve good results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203160)
And yes, I know Gliss Kur, they sell it here too. I just don't like pharmacy products that much, because I think they prefer to put chemical ingredients in them instead of oils, while oils are natural and can achieve the same (or even better) results.

The sHegron Aloe Vera Conditioner is a pharmacy product too, but it does not contain harsh ingredients. You should not judge a book by its cover and dismiss the gliss kur conditioner just because it is sold in a pharmacy. If Firefox recommends it, I bet it does not contain any harmful ingredients.

I found the ingredient list for you:

Aqua, Cetearyl Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Collagen, Panthenol, Cocodimonium Hydroxypropyl Hydrolyzed Keratin, Hydrolyzed Keratin, Isopropyl Myristate, Behenoyl PG-Trimonium Chloride, Citric Acid, VP/VA Copolymer,Phenoxyethanol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Sodium Methylparaben, Hexylene Glycol,Parfum, Polyquaternium-37,Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Hexyl Cinnamal, Amyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Benzyl Salicylate

Unless polyquats give you build up, I would give it a try.

Firefox7275 08-26-2013 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203160)
By moisturized I mean that it looks healthy and that the curls are defined, I guess. Since you need moisture to get that result.

Right now I'm using these products:
Wash: Hegron Aloe Vera conditioner
Condition: Dr Organics Olive Oil/Honey conditioner
Leave-in: Hegron Aloe Vera conditioner
Multiple gels and mousses (without harsh ingredients)

I have tried a protein treatment (the one with gelatin) and wasn't that excited about it. But it was just once and I put egg yolk in it, which I read about, isn't that good for a protein treatment.

And yes, I know Gliss Kur, they sell it here too. I just don't like pharmacy products that much, because I think they prefer to put chemical ingredients in them instead of oils, while oils are natural and can achieve the same (or even better) results.

Aloe vera and honey are potent humectants, perhaps you are overdoing the moisture? Hair doesn't need loads of water to be healthy or for definition that is a common misconception. Hair needs a modest amount of water, too much swells the hair, raises the cuticle, makes it dull and frizzy. Shiny hair has the cuticle laying flat, any damage has been patched by ingredients such as silicones or hydrolysed protein, ingredients that coat the surface can also increase capillary adhesion between strands which helps with clumping and curl definition.

You may well not get instant gratification from Curly Girl friendly solutions, this is about playing the long game. Silicones are the main ingredient that give instant results, faux shine and slip. I can't understand why you would consider water soluble silicones but be against hydrolysed protein which is arguably more natural!

Sorry but natural oils do not achieve the same results as hydrolysed protein they have completely different properties. OIls are occlusives/ anti humectants/ sealers, some can penetrate reducing porosity and increasing elasticity. Hydrolysed proteins are film formers, patch repair, encourage the cuticle to lay flat, strengthen, weak humectants, curl boosting. I use and recommend both for different purposes at different times.

Gliss Kur ultimate volume ingredients: actives of natural origin emboldened, all backed by published research. Keratin is the main protein found in skin, hair and nails, collagen is also abundant in the human body in skin, bone and connective tissue, panthenol is AKA pro-vitamin B5. The remainder are fairly standard emollients, pH adjustors, preservatives, thickener, fragrance many of which are found in haircare products marketed as natural.
"water, cetearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed collagen, panthenol, cocodimonium hydroxypropyl hydrolyzed keratin, hydrolyzed keratin, isopropyl myristate, behonoyl PG-trimonium chloride, citric acid, VP/VA copolymer, phenoxyethanol, behentrimonium chloride, sodium methylparaben, hexylene glycol, fragrance, polyquaternium-37, dicaprylyl carbonate, hexyl cinnamal, amyl cinnamal, limonene, linalool, benzyl salicylate."

I highly recommend reading the Natural Haven blog and the 'curl chemist' articles by Tonya McKay here on NC, they explain what different ingredients families do to hair and there is plenty on the science of natural ingredients as well as some highly effective artificial ones.

Firefox7275 08-26-2013 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noedles (Post 2203165)
Okay, I have another question. Yes, I'm full of questions, I never stop.

The question is about porosity, I can't figure it out. I first thought I was medium/high porosity (read the first post), but it just seams that my hair won't soak moisture in. But I just have the feeling too that I can't have low porosity too, because I did the test and catched up bumps and my hair isn't like some 3C haired girls where the water just lays on the hair. The other option is that I have high porosity and that the moisture leaves my hair too quickly. If that's the case, I'll have to seal my hair more (maybe with oils) and add more moisture in my daily care, I guess?

When I straighten my hair, I don't ever have to straighten it again till the next washing session (about 3/4 days later). Does this have to do something with the porosity or with the texture?

Nothing wrong with questions! What is making you think your hair won't soak moisture in? Are you confusing a damaged texture or build up with dryness, or struggling to accept your hair's condition without silicones?

High porosity/ damaged hair does not need more moisture it needs the right amount, too much water is damaging. It generally needs reduced porosity and increased elasticity - overnight coconut oil soaks on dry hair are king for this purpose.

High porosity hair also generally does not do so well with the potent humectants because they attract too much water to the hair in higher dews. The right amount of water can be held around the hair with weak humectants like cationic surfactants, fatty alcohols, hydrolysed protein, panthenol. A little oil to seal can absolutely be beneficial but it's easy to weigh down fine or wavy hair.

THE NATURAL HAVEN: Junk Science - Hair Porosity Tests / Float or Sink
The Curl Whisperer on Humectants and Humidity | Curly Nikki | Natural Hair Styles and Natural Hair Care
Porosity and Curly Hair
THE NATURAL HAVEN: Straightening Facts :How hot is too hot?
Mineral Oil Versus Coconut Oil: Which is better?
If you are still confused about properties
Pedaheh's Hair Blog: GoosefootPrints Hair Analysis with My Analysis Results


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