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-   -   Proteins & curly coarse hair - confused...... (http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/161834-proteins-curly-coarse-hair-confused.html)

curl goddess 08-18-2013 01:41 PM

Proteins & curly coarse hair - confused......
 
So I was just reading a link someone posted about hair types and protein.
Live Curly Live Free - Curly Hair Basics

According to this, and my hairdresser confirmed, I should not use a lot of proteins on my thick, course porous hair.

I use Jessicurl styling products and the Deep Condish as well..... but my shampoo and conditioner both had a couple proteins listed in the ingredients - soy and vegetable proteins. The rest of the ingredients looked good. Here is the list for the shampoo, and the condish had basically the same proteins

Natures Gate Pomegranate shampoo:


Water, Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine (Coconut Derived), Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (Coconut Derived), Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate (Coconut Derived), Lauryl Glucoside (Vegetable Derived), Glycerin (Vegetable Derived), Punica Granatum (Pomegranate) Fruit Extract, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Extract, Panthenol, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Borago Officinalis (Borage) Seed Oil, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Aspalathus Linearis (Red Tea) Leaf Extract, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Althaea Officinalis (Marshmallow) Leaf Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Extract, Viola Tricolor (Pansy) Extract, Silybum Marianum (Milk Thistle) Extract, Calendula Officinalis Flower Extract, Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Extract, Ascorbyl Palmitate (Vitamin C), Leuconostoc/Radish Root Ferment Filtrate, Polysorbate 20 (Vegetable Derived), Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose (Plant Derived), Sodium Hydroxide, Phenoxyethanol, Glyceryl Undecylenate (Vegetable Derived), Citric Acid (Vegetable Derived), Fragrance*.
* Phthalate free

Natures Gate Pomegranate Condish:

Water, Glycerin (Vegetable Derived), Stearyl Alcohol (Vegetable Derived), Cetyl Alcohol (Vegetable Derived), Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride (Vegetable Derived), Benzyl Alcohol, Punica Granatum
(Pomegranate) Fruit Extract, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Extract, Panthenol, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Hydrolyzed Vegetable Protein, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Borago Officinalis (Borage) Seed Oil, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Aspalathus Linearis (Red Tea) Leaf Extract, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Althaea Officinalis (Marshmallow) Leaf Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Extract, Viola Tricolor (Pansy) Extract, Silybum Marianum (Milk Thistle) Extract, Calendula Officinalis Flower Extract, Avena Sativa (Oat) Kernel Extract, Stearalkonium Chloride (Vegetable Derived), Ascorbyl Palmitate, Hydroxyethylcellulose (Plant Derived), Potassium Sorbate, Citric Acid (Vegetable Derived), Fragrance*.


My hair is color processed......ive been using this shampoo/condish for over a year now......when I had my hair highlighted recently, it did get very dry, but the jessicurl dt fixed that - otherwise I havent had an issue with it being overly dry.

Should i switch my shampoo/condish? Or are a couple proteins listed ok?

kathymack 08-18-2013 02:34 PM

While coarse hair doesn't usually care for protein, porous hair does. Also, most hair needs/wants more protein in the summer/higher dewpoints. Even people who are protein sensitive find that they can use some protein(s) in the summer. If what you're doing is working for you, then keep doing it.

A lot of us do rotate products, so can buy and try whatever you want--it feeds the inner pj in all of us, LOL!

Geek_Chic 08-18-2013 02:34 PM

Porous hair needs some protein to fill in the holes in the cuticle layer, and coarse hair doesn't mean no protein, it just doesn't need a lot or often if it isn't damaged. I've heard coarse curlies will often do well with silk protein or keratin protein when others simply leave their hair feeling like straw, but that varies from head to head.

The top 5 ingredients (after water) are what make up the majority of a product. The top 5 in that conditioner are mostly fatty alcohols which act as conditioning agents. The top 5 in the shampoo are mostly gentle surfactants (cleansers). My fine to medium hair loves protein, so ymmv, but those aren't what I'd consider highly proteined products.

I'd say that if you've been using that shampoo and conditioner for over a year without issue, there's no real reason to change now. When your hair has had too much protein it'll feel dry or straw-like. So just watch for those things and incorporate a protein free conditioner or dt when your hair needs additional moisture. This page may be helpful.

curl goddess 08-18-2013 02:39 PM

THe only time i noticed a change - was when i highlighted my hair a few months ago.......it got very straw like.

then I bought some Shea MOisture masque at target - omg - my hair felt so horrilble........i immediately took it back to the store! I dont even know what was in it, that made my hair so dry!

here is the ingredients for the shea moisture masque:


Deionized Water , Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) , Argan Oil , Vegetable Glycerin , Emulsifying Wax , Sea Kelp Extract , Panthenol (Vitamin B-5) , Essential Oil Blend , Avocado Oil , Tocopherol (Vitamin E) , Hyssopus Officinalis Extract , Salvia Officinalis Leaf and Equisetum Arvense Extract (Sage) , Soybean Oil , Daucus Carota Sativa Seed Oil (Carrot)


there isnt any protein in it at all! Maybe my hair isnt porous at all?!

curl goddess 08-18-2013 02:49 PM

I just read this on that link:

It is also important to remember that, although the above is a great general guideline, there are always exceptions to the rule sometimes; for example, a coarse-haired girl has a lot of structural damage from repeated flat-ironing or chlorine exposure and could benefit from a good protein reconstruction. Always let the condition of your hair be your guide as well as the facts of good hair science!

So maybe because ive been coloring my hair, that i do ok with the protein? PLUS - my hair is about 50% gray......that changes the texture also......

I might try a new shampoo without protein and see how it goes....

curl goddess 08-18-2013 02:58 PM

Its true that the season and where u live have an effect and should count in the equation as well.

I live in AZ where its very dry, no moisture - except for 2 months in the summer during monsoon season when the dew point and humidity soar. I do change my styling products during this season, but havent changed my shampoo/conditioner.

I have coarse thick long hair that is color treated and I used to flat iron it more than i wore it curly until the last few months when i got highlights and it got a little dry. My shampoo and condish both have a couple proteins low on the list of ingredients -but my jessicurl styling products and DTs do not.

My hair feels pretty good, and i only experience frizz in the dry winter months - maybe thats when i should change my shampoo/conditioner?

ive never thought this hard about my hair - but if i could figure it out - my hair would look and feel better!

Geek_Chic 08-18-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curl goddess (Post 2200861)
THe only time i noticed a change - was when i highlighted my hair a few months ago.......it got very straw like.

then I bought some Shea MOisture masque at target - omg - my hair felt so horrilble........i immediately took it back to the store! I dont even know what was in it, that made my hair so dry!

here is the ingredients for the shea moisture masque:

Deionized Water , Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) , Argan Oil , Vegetable Glycerin , Emulsifying Wax , Sea Kelp Extract , Panthenol (Vitamin B-5) , Essential Oil Blend , Avocado Oil , Tocopherol (Vitamin E) , Hyssopus Officinalis Extract , Salvia Officinalis Leaf and Equisetum Arvense Extract (Sage) , Soybean Oil , Daucus Carota Sativa Seed Oil (Carrot)

there isnt any protein in it at all! Maybe my hair isnt porous at all?!

I'd guess that your hair didn't care for the oils, butter, and/or the wax content in that, especially if it responded to it by becoming dry yet greasy. You aren't the only one who's mentioned dry, straw-like hair after using that product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by curl goddess (Post 2200864)
I just read this on that link:

It is also important to remember that, although the above is a great general guideline, there are always exceptions to the rule sometimes; for example, a coarse-haired girl has a lot of structural damage from repeated flat-ironing or chlorine exposure and could benefit from a good protein reconstruction. Always let the condition of your hair be your guide as well as the facts of good hair science!

So maybe because ive been coloring my hair, that i do ok with the protein? PLUS - my hair is about 50% gray......that changes the texture also......

I might try a new shampoo without protein and see how it goes....

Absolutely, your hair is more porous now because you've been coloring it. Porous hair needs protein to fill in the holes in the cuticle. Also, keep in mind that even healthy coarse hair can require some protein now and then, even tolerate an occasional pt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by curl goddess (Post 2200870)
Its true that the season and where u live have an effect and should count in the equation as well.

I live in AZ where its very dry, no moisture - except for 2 months in the summer during monsoon season when the dew point and humidity soar. I do change my styling products during this season, but havent changed my shampoo/conditioner.

I have coarse thick long hair that is color treated and I used to flat iron it more than i wore it curly until the last few months when i got highlights and it got a little dry. My shampoo and condish both have a couple proteins low on the list of ingredients -but my jessicurl styling products and DTs do not.

My hair feels pretty good, and i only experience frizz in the dry winter months - maybe thats when i should change my shampoo/conditioner?

ive never thought this hard about my hair - but if i could figure it out - my hair would look and feel better!

Again, yes, hair properties (texture, porosity, density) and the weather (dewpoints) should both play a part in product choice. During dry months, you may want to add a leave in conditioner, or use more moisturizing products. You may also need to dt more often. During wet months, you may need more protein and may or may not need a leave in. Humectants like glycerin can be an issue in low (below 30-40) or high (above 60) dewpoints, though some can use them year round. In high dews, humectants can pull too much moisture into the hair and in low dews, can pull too much moisture out of the hair. Either of these situations can cause poof and frizz. Glycerin is a common one, but propylene glycol, aloe, and sorbitol are also humectants. Many find that humectants in rinse out products like shampoo and conditioner aren't a problem, but they have to decrease them in their stylers. If your styler has an oil or butter higher in the ingredients list, it should decrease (or eliminate) the effect of a humectant in it.

If I recall, Jessicurl stylers have a good amount of glycerin in them. During the winter, you might want to add a leave in conditioner (if you don't usually use one) and maybe a sealer (oil or butter) to help "shield" your hair from the glycerin's drying effect and maintain moisture between wash days. Another alternative would be to switch to glycerin free stylers in the winter and see if your hair behaves better. The Frizz Forecast is useful year round, and you may find this page helpful.

curl goddess 08-18-2013 06:20 PM

Yes - i think youre right on all counts - Ive been blindly doing this, not knowing why...... So proteins are ok?

the Shea Moisture didnt make my hair greasy - it was just dry like straw.

I DO switch my stying products in the winter (see sig line) Cant use JC at all in the winter.....

Im thinking of checking out some other poos/condish to see if anything changes. My hair looks and feels great - but maybe it could feel better?

I also do ACV and sometimes honey rinses - every 2-3 weeks - esp now that ive been wearing my hair curly all the time and using more products.

Thanks all - and thanks for the great links Geek Chic! Super helpful!

Geek_Chic 08-18-2013 07:18 PM

Yes, given that your hair isn't dry, straw-like, or crunchy (which would indicate protein overdose), your current routine seems to be working for you. If nothing else, as you try new products, your current routine is a good baseline if something new doesn't work out.

Sorry, I overlooked your siggy in favor of the texts in your posts. If that's Kiss My Face Upper Management gel, the 2nd ingredient on their website is glycerin. If that's Biotera Styling gel, the ingredients list I saw has glycerin and propylene glycol and no oils higher up to counteract them. Either might be contributing to your winter frizz.

No reason not to try a new product if you want to, just choose based on ingredients that will work with your hair properties. I would definitely only change 1 product at a time though, so if you get effects you don't like, you'll know what did it. If you didn't click through to the excellent article linked on the protein vs. moisture page, you might want to read it. It has good detailed info. on evaluating moisture /protein balance.

Back when I exclusively cowashed, I liked a weekly ACV rinse. ACV closes the cuticle down (porous hair has a raised /open cuticle), so no wonder you like them. They help clarify and handle some mineral deposits if you have hard water too.

curl goddess 08-18-2013 07:29 PM

we DO have hard water.........really sucks too!

So maybe in winter - try something with humectants? Will have to give that a try. I know if i use JC in the winter, my curls fall flat...... the KMF and Bioterra work pretty well - esp when i dont spend a lot of time outdoors.... oh and wearing hats......which i love to do - can wreck havoc sometimes - but most of the time my hair will look pretty good a day after i wash it during winter time.

kurlygurly 08-19-2013 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geek_Chic (Post 2200957)

Sorry, I overlooked your siggy in favor of the texts in your posts. If that's Kiss My Face Upper Management gel, the 2nd ingredient on their website is glycerin.

I try to avoid glycerin and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE kiss my face upper management gel. The ingredients on my bottles don't have glycerin.....

Kiss My Face Styling Gel Upper Management
Ingredients:
Aqua, urtica dioca (nettles leaf extract),* calendula officinalis (marigold flower extract),* chamomilla recutita (chamomile flower extract),* hyaluronic acid, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate, yeast extract, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin E), citrus grandis (grapefruit extract)*Certified Organic by Quality Assurance International.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

FunnAndre 08-19-2013 05:00 AM

Hay, Will these treatments works for me? I have confused curly hair. I feel frustration because of this hair.

curlisue1 08-19-2013 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FunnAndre (Post 2201054)
Hay, Will these treatments works for me? I have confused curly hair. I feel frustration because of this hair.

How can anyone provide an answer to this? You don't give any information about your hair properties or routine?

Marci Pie 08-19-2013 10:57 AM

I have hair with coarse tendices and I cannot do protein treatments or products with wheat germ and other proteins in the first few ingredients.

Coarse hair really doesn't need protein because it is already built-up so to speak.

I would start over with a regular shampoo, apple cider vinegar rinse and a deep condition treatment with some other conditioner like GVP Conditioning Balm.

wavydaze 08-19-2013 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201044)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geek_Chic (Post 2200957)

Sorry, I overlooked your siggy in favor of the texts in your posts. If that's Kiss My Face Upper Management gel, the 2nd ingredient on their website is glycerin.

I try to avoid glycerin and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE kiss my face upper management gel. The ingredients on my bottles don't have glycerin.....

Kiss My Face Styling Gel Upper Management
Ingredients:
Aqua, urtica dioca (nettles leaf extract),* calendula officinalis (marigold flower extract),* chamomilla recutita (chamomile flower extract),* hyaluronic acid, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate, yeast extract, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin E), citrus grandis (grapefruit extract)*Certified Organic by Quality Assurance International.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

they recently changed the formula. I believe it now has glycerin.

kurlygurly 08-19-2013 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2201331)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201044)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geek_Chic (Post 2200957)

Sorry, I overlooked your siggy in favor of the texts in your posts. If that's Kiss My Face Upper Management gel, the 2nd ingredient on their website is glycerin.

I try to avoid glycerin and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE kiss my face upper management gel. The ingredients on my bottles don't have glycerin.....

Kiss My Face Styling Gel Upper Management
Ingredients:
Aqua, urtica dioca (nettles leaf extract),* calendula officinalis (marigold flower extract),* chamomilla recutita (chamomile flower extract),* hyaluronic acid, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate, yeast extract, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin E), citrus grandis (grapefruit extract)*Certified Organic by Quality Assurance International.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

they recently changed the formula. I believe it now has glycerin.

What?! That's my all time favorite gel....I bought 4 bottles a few weeks ago. I better buy 15 more. :'(

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Geek_Chic 08-19-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201408)
Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2201331)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201044)

I try to avoid glycerin and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE kiss my face upper management gel. The ingredients on my bottles don't have glycerin.....

Kiss My Face Styling Gel Upper Management
Ingredients:
Aqua, urtica dioca (nettles leaf extract),* calendula officinalis (marigold flower extract),* chamomilla recutita (chamomile flower extract),* hyaluronic acid, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate, yeast extract, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin E), citrus grandis (grapefruit extract)*Certified Organic by Quality Assurance International.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

they recently changed the formula. I believe it now has glycerin.

What?! That's my all time favorite gel....I bought 4 bottles a few weeks ago. I better buy 15 more. :'(

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

The ingredients list on their website is as follows: Aqua, Glycerin, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Polysorbate 20, Polyquaternium 55, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Panthenol, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Calendula Officinalis (Marigold) Flower Extract*, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract*, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Beta Glucan, Sodium Hayaluronate, Natural Fragrance, Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin *Organic

kurlygurly 08-20-2013 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geek_Chic (Post 2201422)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201408)
Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2201331)

they recently changed the formula. I believe it now has glycerin.

What?! That's my all time favorite gel....I bought 4 bottles a few weeks ago. I better buy 15 more. :'(

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

The ingredients list on their website is as follows: Aqua, Glycerin, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Polysorbate 20, Polyquaternium 55, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Panthenol, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Calendula Officinalis (Marigold) Flower Extract*, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Extract*, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Beta Glucan, Sodium Hayaluronate, Natural Fragrance, Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin *Organic

That's an entirely different product then, geesh!!! Luckily I'm making my own haircare line and am really impressed with my gels.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Jeliah 09-07-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201408)
Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydaze (Post 2201331)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kurlygurly (Post 2201044)

I try to avoid glycerin and I ABSOLUTELY LOVE kiss my face upper management gel. The ingredients on my bottles don't have glycerin.....

Kiss My Face Styling Gel Upper Management
Ingredients:
Aqua, urtica dioca (nettles leaf extract),* calendula officinalis (marigold flower extract),* chamomilla recutita (chamomile flower extract),* hyaluronic acid, sodium hydroxymethylglycinate, yeast extract, panthenol, tocopherol (vitamin E), citrus grandis (grapefruit extract)*Certified Organic by Quality Assurance International.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

they recently changed the formula. I believe it now has glycerin.

What?! That's my all time favorite gel....I bought 4 bottles a few weeks ago. I better buy 15 more. :'(

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Yeah I went to whole foods to stock up and all they had was the new formula, so I just ordered some online. I hate it when a company changes a perfectly good product :-(

Fifi.G 09-07-2013 11:07 AM

Protein limits are tricky when it comes to coarse/porous hair. When I first came here mine had been butchered during a bad color job, and then completely burnt down after I used a product with high protein content and a good amount of wheat germ. I was scared to death of protein after that, but kathymack helped me understand it a little better, and the new person doing my color reconstruct eased me into a treatment once my color was back to normal. *It wasn't CG. It was a mix of proteins with some good old Queen Helene, but it worked magic* I've now found that my hair loves some proteins, but I can not use them every day. I just have to watch how my hair feels, and rotate with straight moisture. If I use a moose that contains it, I will make sure the conditioner or LI I use prior does not, etc.
All things in moderation.

Sorry about the KMF gel some of you like. It is a shame when they do that, but I think they are required to change formulation every 7 or 8 years. It would be nice if they would leave something good alone. That sounds like something I would have loved to try.


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