KCCC/KCKT Questions

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I've been using KCKT and KCCC for a month now, and I have mixed feelings. Initially, I really liked it, and I still think I do, but I feel that I could use some advice to improve my results and experiences, because it's still not optimal.

The first few days I got really, really great hair. I even had my best hair day ever, which in my case means that I have big, chunky spirals. However, I also have days - the majority, actually - where my hair becomes really undefined and limp.

This is my current routine on washing days:
- Wash my hair with De Tuinen shampoo (about which I'm not too happy anymore, either)
- RO with AO GPB (luckily I finally ran out so that I have to order a new condish)
- KCKT as LI. I use about a pea-size amount and distribute this by smoothing it on my hair. Then use a wide-tooth brush to detangle. I usually leave it in.
- KCCC: I'm still experimenting, but I use at least two and no more than four two-finger dips. By two-finger dips, I mean that I dip in two fingers and take them out without scooping. I can have amazing hair with two dips one day, then disaster the next.

I have researched many topics about KCKT and KCCC in the past. What I find is that KCKT detangles really well and does it gently. Initially it didn't seem to weigh down my hair but seeing that it's so undefined, I might want to revise that opinion. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please let me know.

I love the consistency of KCCC because one of my frustrations with FSG was that most of it "dripped off" my hair. My hair does not get crunchy with KCCC at all, which again is a massive contrast to FSG because that was crunch palooza. Whereas most people seem to experience an extended drying time when using KCCC, I do not get that. It even appears to dry even faster compared to any other product I have ever used.

In short, I have had some amazing hair days and KCCC definitely has some advantages over FSG. However, I want to get consistent results rather than the "will it be disaster or success" gamble. Experiences and advice are welcome. These are my own considerations as to what might be the problem:

- Lack of protein. Perhaps a new RO would help?
- Overconditioned?
- Problems with hold?

What's also good to know is that my hair is low porous, high density, fine. It gets weighed down easily. It hates polyquats and cones. I am open to any suggestions.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Weleda Oat Replenishing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number

Last edited by Lauraimes; 11-27-2013 at 06:45 AM.
I first started using kccc a few months ago when it was summer, and I was air drying. As the weather has gotten colder, I've started diffusing, and I've found by accident that this makes my kccc results way more consistent. It seems to help the product set a specific pattern and stay that way.
2c/3a, dense, fairly coarse, normal porosity and elasticity, bsl curly, WL wet
Low poo: Giovanni 50 50
Co-wash: down under naturals, tresume naturals
RO: AOHR
LI: Giovanni Direct, Desert Essence curl cream
Stylers: kccc, HE smu, brhg
Oils: coconut, argan or evoo
I find Slip from Curly Hair Solutions more effective than KCKT. If I need something more than just my RO conditioner for detangling, I spritz my hair with a few sprays of that, give it half a minute to a minute to start working, then get great slip.

I think using a wide row brush as you do to detangle at the stage you do is working against you. If you confine your detangling to when your RO conditioner is on your hair, you should get better definition IME.

I agree that diffusing hair dry can help. I recently decided that unless I were going to give up on having longer hair, I was going to have to be able to dry my hair faster. That was when I discovered that my dryer barely worked. I don't know if it was like that when my hair was super short, but it certainly was ineffective for me now. So I did a lot of research, and bought a new dryer (and diffuser), which seems to be a lot better for my hair. If you want more info about it, let me know, otherwise I won't bore you with the details.
Peace,
Morgan

Baby Fine 3B, low porosity, normal density and elasticity
CGing since July 2008
KCKT as a leave-in product made my hair limp. Have you tried KCCC on its own? KCCC seems like a miracle product for many, but as you may know it did not work for me. The problem areas I had were: frizz (in very high dews), elongation, sometimes lack of definition and just general meh hair. I think I had similar issues to yourself, minus the frizz since we live in radically different climates. Application was also not consistent; sometimes it flash-dried on me as well.

Yes, you probably need more protein. Definitely a new RO. Also, do you PT?

My hair doesn't really crunch with FSG, or very little crunch, but I don't add honey to mine. I'm trying new recipes, but my favorite so far is plain FSG, with 1/2 teaspoon of CNPF. It's actually still my favorite styler out of everything I've tried.

Also another suggestion... some people like topping KCCC (or FSG) with a little bit of a hard hold gel.
Lauraimes likes this.
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: CeraVe Foaming as low-poo, gelatin gel

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
I've tried diffusing but it seems to be my biggest enemy. My hair becomes fluffy, fuzzy, undefined and curl-less.

Morgan_Adcock, thanks for the suggestion. I wish Curly Hair Solutions was available here. Also, Slip contains a polyquat

Even thought diffusing never has worked for me, I would like to know if you had similar experiences with diffusing in the past like I have.

Hi wavydaze! Hmm that's a good one. The first few days I used KCKT to detangle, rinsed it out and used KCCC on its own. Maybe I'm just getting overconditioned from leaving in KCKT. Today I used it as a detangler again, rinsed it out and used KCCC without a LI. Curious to see if this improves my results.

I don't really PT. I occasionally do the gelatin PT but I always find it hard to determine what difference it makes. I get the impression that my hair does not really absorb it. I'm looking for a new RO with protein in it. You have replied in one of my previous topics that you really like Giovanni SaS for that. Would you still recommend that? Also, I'm a bit scared that it will weigh down my hair. What's your experience with that?

My FSG was just flaxseeds, water and ½ teaspoon honey. I need something for hold. We don't have as much additives here on ground so I would have to order some online.

Hmm BRHG is one of the few products that is available here, and it worked miracles, but it did give me white flakes. I might want to get another tester and see how it works with KCCC.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Weleda Oat Replenishing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
I had that issue. I had my first awesome hair day with kckt and kccc when I just used it in a pinch and ignored jt on my way to work at the animal shelter. In other words I competely ignored it until it was soc time. Then it was flawless and people gave me mega compliments.

It never happened again and I have yet to experiment with my short hair. When I used to use it my hair was long and I mean long long.

The key with kccc is to not touch at all intil completely dry but that can make you limp and plopping isn't ideal because its still gonna cause frizz. I think you need something that dries faster. Your curl type seems like it needs a product that helps in the creation and lift factor of your curls.

Since you get annoyed about fsg drip you might like pattern pusha. I'm gonna try ordering that cause quite frankly I get lazy about making fsg and I need something for winter time. Kccc also took forever to dry from what I can remember and quite frankly that pissed me off lol.

I think you would do good with curl enhancers. Perhaps something like shea moisture's curl enhancing smoothie! That had glycerin but its glorious. It will give you just enough support. Eco styler and laslsg are great too but they also have glycerin.

Have you tried CIAB? I know you hate polyquats and that is infested with them... however some people have been known to convert I haven't personally tried it though.
I also want to try Jane carter's wrap and roll... its a mousse and I think it may be a good product for what your looking to do.

Let me know if you have any questions! !

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Lauraimes likes this.
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
Omg do bit diffuse with kccc... its the worst.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
Not***

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
Thanks for your elaborate reply bringingcurliesback!

I don't even get crunch with KCCC. It's good that you remind me not to touch my hair. I do plop and it might give some frizz but considering that frizz never is an issue for me, you can barely even notice

A product that helps in the creation and with the lift factor sounds good. I just might try CJ PP once CJ returns in Europe again. Luckily KCCC doesn't take forever to dry. It dries even faster than when I use FSG.

Polyquats are a big no-no for me. Whenever I use something with a polyquat, regardless which one it is, my hair becomes a mess.

The SM Smoothie, is it heavy?

I'm curious about the Jane Carter mousse as well. Let me see where I can get it because that's temporarily unavailable as well.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Weleda Oat Replenishing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
@Lauraimes your welcome!! Live to serce another curly lol. Your hair is lovely btw. I may have to try your method!
Perhaps clipping may give you some volume at the roots especially. But I am not sure if you have that issue.

The smoothie is only heavy if you use too much. It looks really heavy and coarsee types can get away with a lot more. Less is definitely more with that product. However they also make a milk but I reccomend the smoothie as a curl enhancer along with the mist. Together they work beautifully.

I don't think I like polyquats either hence I haven't tried curl keeper or ciab as they are mostly just polyquats.

Yes definitely want to try the jc mousse and do give the pattern pusha a try. I will let you know how it goes for me as well. What other brands do you have available? Maybe we can improvise?
Hmm in worse case could you order online?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
I have a good clipping technique that I don't use but should and I can explain it for you in detail if your interested injuat hate typing lol

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
@Lauraimes your welcome!! Live to serce another curly lol. Your hair is lovely btw. I may have to try your method!
Perhaps clipping may give you some volume at the roots especially. But I am not sure if you have that issue.

The smoothie is only heavy if you use too much. It looks really heavy and coarsee types can get away with a lot more. Less is definitely more with that product. However they also make a milk but I reccomend the smoothie as a curl enhancer along with the mist. Together they work beautifully.

I don't think I like polyquats either hence I haven't tried curl keeper or ciab as they are mostly just polyquats.

Yes definitely want to try the jc mousse and do give the pattern pusha a try. I will let you know how it goes for me as well. What other brands do you have available? Maybe we can improvise?
Hmm in worse case could you order online?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Originally Posted by bringingcurliesback?
On ground we have only a few brands available like the Yes to… line (which I cannot use because they contain almond oil and I'm allergic to almonds), and Inecto Coconut conditioner, Dr. Organic. I think that's about it. Most things we have to order. There are a few Dutch webshops like Hairproducts for Afro and curly hair - buy online - Mariposa Import and Natuurlijke haarverzorging voor krullend- en kroeshaar - my Natural Curls. We can also order from the Curly Emporium but then shipping rates are rather high. Oddly enough iHerb is the cheapest option! Shipping costs me even less than when I order something from a Dutch webshop. Shipping takes about two to three weeks but I'm fine with that. I'll be placing a new order this weekend because I'm in desperate need of a new RO conditioner. Whatever is available on those websites, is available for me. It's just that many products are out of stock right now due to new labelling laws in Europe, so all these brands have to get their labelling right.

As for clipping: I don't have any clips but I am still happy to learn about new techniques. I mean, if I don't know about it, I cannot even consider whether I want to try it
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Weleda Oat Replenishing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
@Lauraimes I see and that sucks. I had no idea. Hmm I wonder if I could order products and ship them to you and how that would work. I'm just curious if that were an option. Could you do swaps?

Okay I will definitely share!! Basically when you clip your hair at the roots using a gel on your finger tips and on the clips and then clipping right at the root and I mean right there you get the ultimate volume boost and it LASTS. I need to seriously make a youtube!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
Oh a YouTube video would be great!

I have a few friends living in the US and it seems that shipping is ridiculously expensive. I'm hoping that I can get KCCC to work for me as a styler because I can order that on iHerb for not too much money. Just to compare: iHerb = $17 + $4 shipping = $21 = €15. If I order it here, I pay €25 + €4 shipping = €29 = $39.

However, I do think that it is incredibly kind that you suggest this. I think this is one of the great things here: everyone looks out for each other.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Weleda Oat Replenishing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
I don't really PT. I occasionally do the gelatin PT but I always find it hard to determine what difference it makes. I get the impression that my hair does not really absorb it.
Originally Posted by Lauraimes
Well, I always feel like unless it's making your hair straw-like it's always working. For me it gives me shine, more volume, silky feeling and just in general if my hair's not looking that great it tends to "fix" the situation... probably when I OC. But I know what you mean, I like protein in my stylers or leave-in products for this reason. Have you tried adding some of the gelatin treatment in your FSG? I add CNFP and love it but don't think you can find it in the Netherlands? I know there was an Italian curly on the board though who made her own things, and she did get a protein thing that was similar to CNPF in Europe. Also have you tried doing the gelatin treatment with heat?

I'm looking for a new RO with protein in it. You have replied in one of my previous topics that you really like Giovanni SaS for that. Would you still recommend that? Also, I'm a bit scared that it will weigh down my hair. What's your experience with that?
Originally Posted by Lauraimes
I still like G SaS. Most of the time I use that or SSI Okra. I also like it as a leave-in. I don't find it's too heavy... if it is you can always use less. My favorite iherb conditioners that I've tried are G SaS and NG Herbal (strong smell).

If your hair gets weighed down easily I'd say stay away from EO Keratin... even though it has protein it tends to send my hair into OC mode quickly. I'm still undecided about Mill Creek Biotin. Mill Creek Keratin seems to pack the biggest protein punch out of all the iherb conditioners... haven't tried it though.

Hmm BRHG is one of the few products that is available here, and it worked miracles, but it did give me white flakes. I might want to get another tester and see how it works with KCCC.
Originally Posted by Lauraimes
Haven't tried BRHG but Volumax Mega is said to be similar and does give me consistent (and pretty good) results. No white flakes!
Lauraimes likes this.
2BC/f/II. fine - low/normal porosity - medium density - normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Cowash: Cure Care diluted with water 1:1
RO: Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

Experimenting with: CeraVe Foaming as low-poo, gelatin gel

light moisture, hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
@Wavydaze: My hair doesn't get straw-like at all I recently tried a Weleda wheat shampoo and my hair looked gorgeous! But it had alcohol as its fourth ingredient. My point is that this seems to be an indication of my hair liking protein. Maybe it depends on the kind of protein. I remember I've read something about different kinds of protein and their weight etc, but I cannot find the article anymore

I have never tried adding the gelatin PT to my FSG. One of the big dislikes with FSG is that it went bad all the time and I needed special ingredients that were difficult to obtain. I might try it some day though, but at this point I think I might prefer ready-made products

Oh how I wish I could try SSI Okra! It's just that I'm not willing to pay $40 for shipping, otherwise I would definitely have gotten it. I've been considering Giovanni SaS for a long time now. Maybe I should just take the leap.
F - LP - HD - NE
Fine, low porosity, high density, normal elasticity
Hairtype 2c

Low poo: Weleda Oat Replenishing Shampoo
Protein: IAGirl's gelatine treatment
Detangler & LI: KCKT
Styling: KCCC

Beauty Is Not a Number
I can't tell you how this would work in winter as I haven't tried it. However a good summer solution for a natural gel would be simply using aloe. I reccomend fruit of the earth and maybe you can find it online. I would imagine that if it is quite natural and glycerin free you could even add a light oil to it and ise it in winter with some success. Just a thought

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
I should start a youtube now I just need a good camera lol.

And no problem only another curly haired girl would understand how we are with hair products lol!
All my family has straight hair and they don't understand why I can't just wash my hair with shampoo and conditoner like "normal" people.

Or how I almost cried when I accidently used a silicone haha.
They think I'm crazy but I'm okay with that.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using CurlTalk App
Sometimes I get carried away and manipulate him too much. He tells me he's fine on his own but I never listen. I wash him less now and all in all we're happy.
Beast's Favorite Things:
Shea Moisture
Kinky Curly
Curl Junkie
Natural Stuff
BC #2: 10/2/13
2c/3a/3b w/ loose botticellis, whirls and curls,
Coarse, High Porosity;CG since 2007
I've tried diffusing but it seems to be my biggest enemy. My hair becomes fluffy, fuzzy, undefined and curl-less.

Morgan_Adcock, thanks for the suggestion. I wish Curly Hair Solutions was available here. Also, Slip contains a polyquat

Even thought diffusing never has worked for me, I would like to know if you had similar experiences with diffusing in the past like I have.

Hi wavydaze! Hmm that's a good one. The first few days I used KCKT to detangle, rinsed it out and used KCCC on its own. Maybe I'm just getting overconditioned from leaving in KCKT. Today I used it as a detangler again, rinsed it out and used KCCC without a LI. Curious to see if this improves my results.

I don't really PT. I occasionally do the gelatin PT but I always find it hard to determine what difference it makes. I get the impression that my hair does not really absorb it. I'm looking for a new RO with protein in it. You have replied in one of my previous topics that you really like Giovanni SaS for that. Would you still recommend that? Also, I'm a bit scared that it will weigh down my hair. What's your experience with that?

My FSG was just flaxseeds, water and ½ teaspoon honey. I need something for hold. We don't have as much additives here on ground so I would have to order some online.

Hmm BRHG is one of the few products that is available here, and it worked miracles, but it did give me white flakes. I might want to get another tester and see how it works with KCCC.
Originally Posted by Lauraimes
Laura, you might find this blog post useful as far as proteins and pt's go. (this one has some good info. as well). I know Kathymack can't do a full strength gelatin pt as it leaves her hair feeling coated, but gets good results using it in her FSG (bigger overall batch, so less protein used in each application). Looking at the table in that post, gelatin is on the heavier end of the spectrum. I don't know what you might be able to get hold of where you are, but considering your hair is low porosity, you might perhaps have better pt results with a lighter weight protein like keratin or silk.

From the post: "If your hair reacts badly to, say, wheat protein but not to keratin, you may have your answer – the wheat is forming a film on your hair, first and foremost whereas some of the keratin is also penetrating the deeper cuticle layers and possibly into the hair fiber."
CG since 11/2011
2c /3a F /Mii, low porosity

Autumn Products /Routine:
Clarifying: ACV rinses, Suave Professional Men Deep Clean Peppermint
Low Poo: Renpure Luxurious Argan Oil
Co-washes: VO5 Kiwi Lime Squeeze or Strawberries & Cream
RO: VO5 KLS or S&C, Cure Care
LI (if needed): VO5 S&C, VO5 KLS, Cure Care
Stylers: FSG, L'Oreal Studio Clean gel, Tresemme Flawless Curls Bouncy Curls gel
PT: IAGirl's as needed
I'm sorry I haven't picked up on where you are.

Before I forget to mention it, I'm among those who haven't found FSG at all crunchy. I haven't ever used honey when I made it myself (just flax/linseeds, water, avg, essential oil for fragrance, and a few drops of grapefruit seed extract ETA epsom salt), so I also suspect that might be the culprit for you.

When I diffused early in my CG journey, my hair was very short. (Traditional hairdressers can't cope with the amount of jump my hair has, and don't seem to be able to admit defeat until it's terminally short.) I found that my hair wasn't well defined when I tried diffusing it, it didn't seem to give me much of a time advantage, plus it was noisy, and was uncomfortable. So I'd plop overnight, and was happier with the results.

When I replaced that dryer, I got one with a ceramic heater and grill, which produces infra-red heat and has natural ion generation, as well as being lighter weight, better balanced, and considerably quieter and less whiney sounding. I also got a lightweight, folding diffuser. Using the same styling products, I'm finding that my curls have better definition, are shiny, and my hair actually seems to be stronger and healthier. I'm also getting better bounce than I had been air drying or drying overnight in an advanced plop.
Peace,
Morgan

Baby Fine 3B, low porosity, normal density and elasticity
CGing since July 2008

Last edited by Morgan_Adcock; 11-29-2013 at 02:37 PM.

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