You may want to avoid triETHANOLamine, depending on your hair type and sensitivities

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Yes but the Ecostyler gel does have alot of protein in it of which you stated that your hair is protein sensitive. This is the far more likely culprit.
Originally Posted by Zeldahime
If my hair was breaking due to protein, I would have seen the hair becoming brittle and snapping and falling out. Instead what I saw was mysteriously thinning hair, with limited visible shedding even though I carefully finger detangled daily. Also, the only protein wetline contains is panthenol. It behaves like a protein, but is technically not a protein.

just in case you did not see my edit.

Also, the top 5 ingredients contain tea, which means it is the top 5 most active ingredients in the gel formulation, 5% concentration or not. The dilution in water is the exact reason the compound is formed. Compare to low lye relaxers, which still break bonds of hair diluted Sodium Hydroxide to 2.5%.

"A Low Lye relaxer has the lowest concentration of sodium hydroxide which is less than 2.5%. It is equally as effective as other Sodium Hydroxide relaxers however much more mild due to the percentage of active ingredient. The low lye relaxer gently loosens the bonds for increased manageability, while maintaining some level of texture in the hair."

Types of Relaxers | Design Essentials

Yup, that pretty much proves it.

I will post a amazon review of someone saying ecostyler hair effects their hair like a relaxer, a few years ago even before my post.

Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 09:08 PM.
With everything in total there is enough proof for me that this is a problem ingredient depending on hair types sensitiviy. It's already been proven their doesn't need to be large amounts of sodium hydroxide to have an effect similar to that of relaxers. Studies have shown it and so has my experience. ...
Originally Posted by flowerpow
You're still missing the point that there is no way sodium hydroxide can form from using that gel.

... I have already mentioned how the gel formulation goes about. It's this process that causes the gel to form this compound, well supported by scientific study. There are many a gel that do not contain tea or this compound. Companies will try and sell you that the compound isn't too bad and it's what's needed to make a gel, but it's not the only option, and it's decietful to brush off these facts since they have been shown to have a mild but tangible effect. Moderate risk does not mean zero risk. We all aren't lucky and many of us will have certain volunerablities to these products based on our hair types(porosity, curl tightness, thickness, etc) that may not effect others. We need to acknowlege all sides of the spectrum.

Ecostyler gel also does not contain polyacrylate acid, yet it still thinned my hair. It did have TEA. Also, the top 5 ingredients contain tea, which means it is the top 5 most active ingredients in the formulation, 5% or not.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
LOL! Sensitivies is a whole another thing that is personal to the person, not the chemical.

I have a list of sensitivities and allergies that is so large it's insane so I definitely understand what it's like to be the 1% that reacts to something. But just because I'm sensitive to these compounds doesn't mean they should be banned, demonised or be given a scare tactic PSA.

I'm Celiac and I'm allergic to wheat AND oats! (and sulfa, and certain red dyes and well the list goes ON!) I don't go around yelling from the roof top that these foods are bad and gonna cause cancer. I simply *have* to avoid them if I want to live. It's my bodies personal issue and by no means should they be avoided by the general public. In fact, they *really* shouldn't be avoided by the general public due to the nutritional deficiencies that must be properly managed and replaced through uses of other foods and supplements.

There are many other compounds that I'm sensitive to as well. Some of the most common are ANY chemical sunscreen. Yes and even secondary contact causes a reaction. Lyral (hydroxyisohexyl 3-cyclohexene carboxaldehyde) and Lilial (butylphenyl methylpropional) are two common fragrances used in many products that I have to avoid like the plague, again with secondary contact also still causing problems. Again, I don't demand that there is anything bad about these compounds. The only person aside from me that has to also vet their products is my DH. This is also why I am not a very touchy person and generally avoid physical contact with others. Nevertheless, it's my problem and no one else's.
MedusaWarrior and Jimipe like this.
Very fine, high porosity, currently dyed and growing out the relaxed portions. I'm pretty sure my hair's 3b something IIRC. We will be finding out for sure as time goes by.

It's official: My hair just loves Shea Moisture. I use a mixture of products from the Raw Shea Butter, African Black Soap, and Coconut & Hibiscus lines.
..."A Low Lye relaxer has the lowest concentration of sodium hydroxide which is less than 2.5%. It is equally as effective as other Sodium Hydroxide relaxers however much more mild due to the percentage of active ingredient. The low lye relaxer gently loosens the bonds for increased manageability, while maintaining some level of texture in the hair."

Types of Relaxers | Design Essentials

Yup, that pretty much proves it.

I will post a amazon review of someone saying ecostyler hair effects their hair like a relaxer, a few years ago even before my post.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
There are many other chemical processes and habits in hair care that can create a disturbance in curl pattern. Also, just in case you can't see my signature, I am quite familiar with relaxers because I *use* them. Specifically lye relaxers. I prefer them over no-lye relaxers for quite a few reasons. In fact, I just relaxed my new growth yesterday.

ETA: The review also states that her curl pattern returns after a few washes. If it truly was a like a relaxer the loss of curl would be permanent.
Very fine, high porosity, currently dyed and growing out the relaxed portions. I'm pretty sure my hair's 3b something IIRC. We will be finding out for sure as time goes by.

It's official: My hair just loves Shea Moisture. I use a mixture of products from the Raw Shea Butter, African Black Soap, and Coconut & Hibiscus lines.

Last edited by Zeldahime; 03-31-2014 at 09:25 PM. Reason: more
With everything in total there is enough proof for me that this is a problem ingredient depending on hair types sensitiviy. It's already been proven their doesn't need to be large amounts of sodium hydroxide to have an effect similar to that of relaxers. Studies have shown it and so has my experience. ...
Originally Posted by flowerpow
You're still missing the point that there is no way sodium hydroxide can form from using that gel.

... I have already mentioned how the gel formulation goes about. It's this process that causes the gel to form this compound, well supported by scientific study. There are many a gel that do not contain tea or this compound. Companies will try and sell you that the compound isn't too bad and it's what's needed to make a gel, but it's not the only option, and it's decietful to brush off these facts since they have been shown to have a mild but tangible effect. Moderate risk does not mean zero risk. We all aren't lucky and many of us will have certain volunerablities to these products based on our hair types(porosity, curl tightness, thickness, etc) that may not effect others. We need to acknowlege all sides of the spectrum.

Ecostyler gel also does not contain polyacrylate acid, yet it still thinned my hair. It did have TEA. Also, the top 5 ingredients contain tea, which means it is the top 5 most active ingredients in the formulation, 5% or not.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
LOL! Sensitivies is a whole another thing that is personal to the person, not the chemical.

I have a list of sensitivities and allergies that is so large it's insane so I definitely understand what it's like to be the 1% that reacts to something. But just because I'm sensitive to these compounds doesn't mean they should be banned, demonised or be given a scare tactic PSA.

I'm Celiac and I'm allergic to wheat AND oats! (and sulfa, and certain red dyes and well the list goes ON!) I don't go around yelling from the roof top that these foods are bad and gonna cause cancer. I simply *have* to avoid them if I want to live. It's my bodies personal issue and by no means should they be avoided by the general public. In fact, they *really* shouldn't be avoided by the general public due to the nutritional deficiencies that must be properly managed and replaced through uses of other foods and supplements.

There are many other compounds that I'm sensitive to as well. Some of the most common are ANY chemical sunscreen. Yes and even secondary contact causes a reaction. Lyral (hydroxyisohexyl 3-cyclohexene carboxaldehyde) and Lilial (butylphenyl methylpropional) are two common fragrances used in many products that I have to avoid like the plague, again with secondary contact also still causing problems. Again, I don't demand that there is anything bad about these compounds. The only person aside from me that has to also vet their products is my DH. This is also why I am not a very touchy person and generally avoid physical contact with others. Nevertheless, it's my problem and no one else's.
Originally Posted by Zeldahime
There is a difference between an allergy, and your hair being sensitive based on it's type's fragility. Based on what you are saying, everyone who's hair does not grow long and healthy using low lye relaxers just has an allergy. Great way to undermine a widespread problem. Doesn't have anything to do with the fact, that even diluted to 2.5% Sodium Hydroxide and it's equally effective replacemants will always dissolve the hair protein, period. There is no way around this, let's stop the denial and word rearrangements.

Have you ever used a low lye on your own hair? Plenty of people with african american hair types report issues with this, and I'm getting the feeling you are underminding my points when they have been well scientifically supported.

You don't need to have an allergy for this to dissolve your hair. Different hair strands have different weaknesses. This can be porosity, fineness, and thickness. No allergic reaction would ever just dissolve my hair with no trace of shedding. I never got any inflammation, headache or swelling. You are really starting to sound like a marketing company, no offense.
..."A Low Lye relaxer has the lowest concentration of sodium hydroxide which is less than 2.5%. It is equally as effective as other Sodium Hydroxide relaxers however much more mild due to the percentage of active ingredient. The low lye relaxer gently loosens the bonds for increased manageability, while maintaining some level of texture in the hair."

Types of Relaxers | Design Essentials

Yup, that pretty much proves it.

I will post a amazon review of someone saying ecostyler hair effects their hair like a relaxer, a few years ago even before my post.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
There are many other chemical processes and habits in hair care that can create a disturbance in curl pattern. Also, just in case you can't see my signature, I am quite familiar with relaxers because I *use* them. Specifically lye relaxers. I prefer them over no-lye relaxers for quite a few reasons. In fact, I just relaxed my new growth yesterday.
Originally Posted by Zeldahime
That is insignificant, the only ingredient that acts this way in these products are TEA. All the other ingredients weren't in the top 5 and dont count, or behave this way. Other hair care practices that disturb the curl pattern? I got a bald spot on my scalp with no shedding and you are still saying this? As soon as i stopped using products with TEA my bald spot stopped getting bigger. I then took measures to repair the damage with TEA and it grew back. I now use a conditioner that contains soy protein under my KCCC gel as a leavein. It isn't in the top 5 ingredients, and it still moisturizes my hair better than any product I have used.


You are grapsing straws here. My point has been already been scientifically proven. Every single point i made has been proven. I will no longer be replying to your comments on this thread.
What I am saying is that while *you* may have some issues with those formulations and/or ingredients, it is personal to you and has *nothing* to do with sodium hydroxide.
twirlygranny likes this.
Very fine, high porosity, currently dyed and growing out the relaxed portions. I'm pretty sure my hair's 3b something IIRC. We will be finding out for sure as time goes by.

It's official: My hair just loves Shea Moisture. I use a mixture of products from the Raw Shea Butter, African Black Soap, and Coconut & Hibiscus lines.
..."A Low Lye relaxer has the lowest concentration of sodium hydroxide which is less than 2.5%. It is equally as effective as other Sodium Hydroxide relaxers however much more mild due to the percentage of active ingredient. The low lye relaxer gently loosens the bonds for increased manageability, while maintaining some level of texture in the hair."

Types of Relaxers | Design Essentials

Yup, that pretty much proves it.

I will post a amazon review of someone saying ecostyler hair effects their hair like a relaxer, a few years ago even before my post.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
ETA: The review also states that her curl pattern returns after a few washes. If it truly was a like a relaxer the loss of curl would be permanent.
Originally Posted by Zeldahime
This was Low Lye relaxers slowly dissolve the hair protein. It works at concentrations of 2.5% said to slowly dissolve the hair cuticle over time. Sodium Hydroxide in the gel is at a 5% concentration. She also described her hair as a ringlet hair type, could presumably be stronger hence why the curl came back (STILL AFTER SEVERAL WASHES). You are not taking into account her individual hair type. I can prove certain hair types thrive better in relaxers than others and post a link. Has nothing to do with an allergy. No allergy would ever dissolve the hair.

You know you aren't a chemsist and have admitted it. So why are you trying to argue directly against scientific facts? Sounds like a TEA reliant gel company with an agenda would hire someone to argue many irrelevant points, that don't change the main issue.

Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 09:44 PM.
Is anyone here a chemist? Frankly, the huge population that uses Ecostyler...I can't imagine it would be so widely used if it caused this kind of reaction in many people.
Zeldahime, sixelamy and asagi like this.
Proof relaxers are in line with hair type, not allergy. Having normal thickness with some fine strands, type 4a 4b 4c textured hair, and low porosity is not an allergy. I am not going to consider my hair type an allergy.


"Before attempting to give a relaxing treat-ment to overly curly hair, the cosmetologist must judge its tex-
ture, porosity, elasticity, and the extent, if any, of damage to the
hair."

The extent of any damage incurred is directly dependant on you hair type.

http://www.delmar.com/resources/samp...253467X_13.pdf
Is anyone here a chemist? Frankly, the huge population that uses Ecostyler...I can't imagine it would be so widely used if it caused this kind of reaction in many people.
Originally Posted by chupie
Every point i have made, has been proven correct by professional chemists and scientists. This is why i have a used only the most credible chemist's and scientist's sourced quotes, and they still support every single point i made. I find it rude to say that just because you haven't experienced something personally, that it is all fable, ESPECIALLY with the extents I went through to make sure everything I said was backed up in some way by real, credible, hard, and objective scientific evidence. And clickable links to confirm for yourself the quote is legit. Many people try ecostyler gel and have numerous different hair types and hair type combinations.

Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 10:03 PM.
Is anyone here a chemist? Frankly, the huge population that uses Ecostyler...I can't imagine it would be so widely used if it caused this kind of reaction in many people.
Originally Posted by chupie
Every point i have made, has been proven correct by professional chemists and scientists. This is why i have a used only the most credible chemist's and scientist's sourced quotes, and they still support every single point i made. I find it rude to say that just because you haven't experienced something personally, that it is all fable, ESPECIALLY with the extents I went through to make sure everything I said was backed up in some way by real, credible, hard, and objective scientific evidence. And clickable links to confirm for yourself the quote is legit. Many people try ecostyler gel and have numerous different hair types and hair type combinations.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
I just find it odd you called the other poster out for not being a chemist if you are not. And I didn't see her call it a fable I saw her say some people may be sensitive and others not. It doesn't mean calling for a ban on it. *That* is what I got out of it.
...You know you aren't a chemsist and have admitted it. So why are you trying to argue directly against scientific facts? Sounds like a TEA reliant gel company with an agenda would hire someone to argue many irrelevant points, that don't change the main issue.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
I'm not. I'm trying to make you understand that allergies and sensitivities (intolerances) are two different things. One exhibits an inflammatory reaction, the other does not.

And for info... my Mum's DH also confirms that due to the order the ingredients are mixed there is no way that there could be any form of lye hidden in that gel. The ways those products are mixed completely inhibits the ability for that reaction to happen. The TEA is completely bonded to the carbomer. There is none left over to react with the water or any other ingredient in that formulation.

I'm not changing anything. I'm trying to make you understand that the chemical you are asserting is present just isn't.

Yes, your body doesn't like it. I never asserted it was an allergy, just a sensitivity and never implied it was an inflammatory reaction.
Very fine, high porosity, currently dyed and growing out the relaxed portions. I'm pretty sure my hair's 3b something IIRC. We will be finding out for sure as time goes by.

It's official: My hair just loves Shea Moisture. I use a mixture of products from the Raw Shea Butter, African Black Soap, and Coconut & Hibiscus lines.
I also find it ironic that you proceeded to claim that you could you lye relaxers on your hair no problem, suggesting that anyone who has a problem with lye is in the wrong, or has an rare sensitivity. It must be a pretty wide spread sensitivity then. Google "lye relaxers" and look at the images. To put it in perspective there are many pictures and i didn't even have to type in bald spot. Some people like you, are fine with lye. Others are simply not. It is not an rare sensitivity as you would like to present it.

Also, notice the pictures contain a smooth round spot. No hair sprouting at all, no black dots. Please try to give me an example where a completely smooth bald spot would stay stagnant in my hair as all the other hair is growing for almost a year after stopping the gel. The thinning stopped, but My hair looked that way (completely smooth, no fuzz or even black dots) for over a year before it started to grow back after doing ghe for 3 months straight. The area is well grown in, but still shorter than other strands. Not to mention i had to cut my hair.

Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 10:19 PM.
I just find it odd you called the other poster out for not being a chemist if you are not. And I didn't see her call it a fable I saw her say some people may be sensitive and others not. It doesn't mean calling for a ban on it. *That* is what I got out of it.
Originally Posted by chupie
The difference between what i am saying and what she is saying:

My points: has credibly sourced everything I have said and provided a professional scientist and chemist source and direct objective quote that agrees with the points i have made, no contradictions whatsoever. I did not make up any of this information. You can clarify that for yourself. I properly did my research, and any conclusions I drew were directly from what scientists have already said. I am essentially only repeating them, and adding my own experience as testimony. There are so many sources, and she continues to insist that sodium hydroxide isn't part of my sensitivity. She is trying to convince me that it's only the protein, contradicting over herself during the discussion, where she tried to convince me it was only the polyacrylate acid. You cannot isolate all this information. Both gels contain tea and an acid. tea will always form NaOH no matter the acid it is added to. Only one gel contains real proteins. I experienced increase in size of bald spot with both uses. The baldspot remained smooth and round for a year after stopping use, no dots to imply follicle growth, just like people who suffer lye breakage in relaxers.

The way she said it, lol it's just your own personal sensitivity, implied that lye isn't a widespread irritant. She then proceeded to point out lye works for her, which i found irrelevant, since I never said every hair type would be negatively effected by this. So I assumed that was what she was implying since she seemed to just rearrange what I said to suit her point when in reality it really didn't.

Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 10:34 PM.
I give up.

Ignoratio Elenchi
Very fine, high porosity, currently dyed and growing out the relaxed portions. I'm pretty sure my hair's 3b something IIRC. We will be finding out for sure as time goes by.

It's official: My hair just loves Shea Moisture. I use a mixture of products from the Raw Shea Butter, African Black Soap, and Coconut & Hibiscus lines.
I give up.

Ignoratio Elenchi
Originally Posted by Zeldahime

I again credibly sourced everything I have said and provided a professional

scientist and chemist source and direct objective quote that agrees with the

points i have made, no contradictions whatsoever.
I did not make up any of

this information. You can clarify that for yourself. the direct quotes and links for the scientific abstracts and studies are directly linked after every paraphrase I make. I properly did my research, obsessively for several hours straight, reading through everything in the chemist's studies and citing quotes thoroughly, quadruple checking things I was unsure of, to fix all contradictions and miswordings that diverted from what the evidence was saying. I did not just click a bunch of irrelevant random quotes. I studied it, studied credible, very relevant quotes from objectively speaking professional chemists and essentialy l repeated them in a way that was easy to understand. Made sure to not just read everything, but study and learn it so I could understand it from EVERY ASPECT and speak it in plain english to others, present it in an understandable way. and

any conclusions I drew were directly from

what scientists have already said
.

Conclusions professional chemists have already

made.
I amessentially only repeating them, with

scientific chemist's quotes included to verify for

yourselves that there are no contradictions or

misquotes. Along with that, adding my own and

others experience as testimony
. To say that they have

logical fallices makes no sense. You are challenging direct quotes from

chemist. You are not one. Everything I said was only repeating what they

said. How does that make me uncredible and making irrelevant conclusion.

So now you are a chemist? You can say that other real chemists with

degrees, make irrelevant conclusions? To say that to me is really saying that

to them, as i have repeated all the scientific information chemists gave.


Nothing I said here was new. I repeated what actual scientists with degrees have already proven, hence the direct quotes. It was essentially hidden from people under vague contradictory commercial marketing.


Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 11:01 PM.
It is an incredible disappointment some of you

guys aren't appreciating the directly repeated,

proven, sourced, scientific facts said by real

molecular chemists, i have exposed and made

available.

There is nothing i do half-baked, I made sure there

were no contradictions to the real science, and

this is a real slap to the face to me and feels like i

wasted my time even trying to explain things to

you. you guys are

still questioning the legitimacy of this post, when

every conclusion i have made is direct repitition of

statements and conclusions

that REAL chemists, and scientists with degrees

have already

made. You gave up because you were vague,

omiting important facts and then backtracking

on them,

contradictory and plain wrong and you yourself

knew it.


Last edited by flowerpow; 03-31-2014 at 11:14 PM.

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