You may want to avoid triETHANOLamine, depending on your hair type and sensitivities

Like Tree158Likes

Not only that, but you even proceed to imply that my own experience is irrelevant. Very disrespectful.

I am no where near done yet. I have taken screen shots of everything you have said in the post (so you can't edit and change what you said)

Tomorrow first thing I will make sure to post the contradiction and omission and back tracking under every misleading point you made so people can see side by side you were spreading misinformation that directly conflicted with several scientific fact based on vague, incomplete, speculation and that you "knew a chemist". I do not ask people to take my word for it. The truths will speak for themselves.

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 12:33 AM.
To the OP,

balding spots. Is this caused by shedding (I'm guessing) or breakage (as in, there are still little hairs) in the "bald" spots. Those are two different things.

Is the hair snapping somewhere on the length, or coming out from the root?

If it's breakage, or brittle hair, then that is most likely related to mechanical damage, wrong protein-conditioning balance, wrong products, rough handling.... but brittle hair may be related to other things as well including health, nutrition, etc.

If your bald spots are caused by shedding, you really need to see a doc and derm ASAP. I recommend getting full bloodwork done in addition to seeing a specialist. Thinning hair has many causes, many of which are related to your health... iron, vitamin deficiencies, hypo/hyperthyroidism, certain medications, untreated SD, not to mention it could be other things like telogen effluvium or just female pattern baldness. The only way to know these things is to see a medical professional and get proper tests. It may not be the gel at all. I'm not discounting you may be having a bad reaction to the gel, I'm just saying that balding can be a sign of something awry with your health, and you won't know either way until you get a proper medical examination.

When I had massive hairloss I too blamed it on products and cowashing, but it turned out to be telogen effluvium, caused by a very stressful project I underwent. Going to the derm was the best thing that happened to me at that time, because it gave me peace of mind and finally, a concrete result to the chaos.
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
To the OP,

balding spots. Is this caused by shedding (I'm guessing) or breakage (as in, there are still little hairs) in the "bald" spots. Those are two different things.

Is the hair snapping somewhere on the length, or coming out from the root?

If it's breakage, or brittle hair, then that is most likely related to mechanical damage, wrong protein-conditioning balance, wrong products, rough handling.... but brittle hair may be related to other things as well including health, nutrition, etc.

If your bald spots are caused by shedding, you really need to see a doc and derm ASAP. I recommend getting full bloodwork done in addition to seeing a specialist. Thinning hair has many causes, many of which are related to your health... iron, vitamin deficiencies, hypo/hyperthyroidism, certain medications, untreated SD, not to mention it could be other things like telogen effluvium or just female pattern baldness. The only way to know these things is to see a medical professional and get proper tests. It may not be the gel at all. I'm not discounting you may be having a bad reaction to the gel, I'm just saying that balding can be a sign of something awry with your health, and you won't know either way until you get a proper medical examination.

When I had massive hairloss I too blamed it on products and cowashing, but it turned out to be telogen effluvium, caused by a very stressful project I underwent. Going to the derm was the best thing that happened to me at that time, because it gave me peace of mind and finally, a concrete result to the chaos.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
I was not understress at the time. I was a lazy straight A student in highschool and recently won a scholarship. I felt more relief and comfort especially at that time. Stress did not cause my hair to dissolve. Are you going to tell me what happened to my own hair? I experimented and tried out everything. At first whe the shedding started, i was in the denial it was the gel. hence why i kept using it and thinking it was something else. Just go to the amazon post under ecostyler gel, titled, this garbage gave me bald spots.

Also, like i repeated several times

from the very beginning, like since May 5th 2013 on amazon.


I did not experience any shedding. I

gently handeled my hair every day, checked my sleeping bonnets, my bed. Adopted even gentler ways, refusing to wear tight head bands, layering the gel with olive oil, sheabutter. My conditioner was already silicone free(paul mitchel the detangler) Everyday i saw more thinning. As soon as i eliminated identified TEA in the product, my problem was solved. My hair has since grown back, and has root to tip definition as i have adopted the most moisturising practices to my hair.


^no other product but mostly cowashed out kcKT conditioner, just bought this week. This is 6 hours after that cowash. notice the short curls in this section. It is right on the area i had the bald spot.




And yes this is me. Proof below. notice the avatar is the same. I used Trader joes tea tree tingle. Yes It has protein in it. if i was so sensitive to protein to the point of severe hair loss, i would not be able to use protein at all. I also do some mild protein treatments on my hair regularily. Using modified cherry lola with yogurt, egg, coconut aminos, and mollasses. No issues, whatsoever. Also you can contact me directly on that site and i will confirm i'm the same poster on this site.
http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/the-...937_page8.html
There was 100%, no more shedding. I now use kinky curly curling custard. If I started using those with gels with TEA ever again. I could swear it would happen to me all over. This post is not about shedding. Your and my experiences are not the same, no offense.

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 01:26 AM.
Before you any of you comment trying to challenge my points. Please take the time to actually read everything I have said, and look at the scientifically sourced material. I am essentially repeating it. If you have not read the entire explanation in this post, do not post a comment implying i do not know what i am talking about in regard to my own hair. I do not like repeating myself this much. I have spent hours doing so. however, i find i have to keep doing it over and over, because you guys are not properly reading my post or looking at the sourced quotes.

Do not take my word for it. Open the links yourself. That is why i put them there.

copy the sentences put in quotations and press ctrl-f and paste it in the find bar. it will go right to it. there are no misquotes, and everything i have said is just repeating what reliable, objective chemists and Scientists have said. none of my sources were from someone hired by a company marketers to spread miscontrued half truths
I'm sorry, maybe I didn't read the OP carefully, I thought you were currently undergoing thinning hair/balding.

I'm glad the KCCC is working out for you. It works out for a lot of people.

I have to chime in though, that if you're protein-sensitive, and your hair was breaking (brittle), that's a very common outcome of using products with protein. Overload of protein causes breakage. Dry hair in general can become brittle and break as well. KCCC does not contain protein, nor anything drying, so that may be why it is agreeing with your hair so well.

Just know that ingredients in a product work synergistically, as well as products in your routine work synergistically, so it may actually be more difficult than it seems to point out what isn't working. Just keep yourself open to the possibility of the breakage happening because of different factors, not just one.

FYI, I'm not saying that stress was causing your problem but absolutely stress can cause you to shed hair and having thinning hair. The stressful event usually happens around 3 months prior to the beginning of the shedding. It's called telogen effluvium.


And, this is a really friendly and helpful tip which is why I'm offering this flower: But it's really hard to read the different font sizes and colors and bolded and not bolded words.
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
I'm sorry, maybe I didn't read the OP carefully, I thought you were currently undergoing thinning hair/balding.

I'm glad the KCCC is working out for you. It works out for a lot of people.

I have to chime in though, that if you're protein-sensitive, and your hair was breaking (brittle), that's a very common outcome of using products with protein. Overload of protein causes breakage. Dry hair in general can become brittle and break as well. KCCC does not contain protein, nor anything drying, so that may be why it is agreeing with your hair so well.

Just know that ingredients in a product work synergistically, as well as products in your routine work synergistically, so it may actually be more difficult than it seems to point out what isn't working. Just keep yourself open to the possibility of the breakage happening because of different factors, not just one.

FYI, I'm not saying that stress was causing your problem but absolutely stress can cause you to shed hair and having thinning hair. The stressful event usually happens around 3 months prior to the beginning of the shedding. It's called telogen effluvium.


And, this is a really friendly and helpful tip which is why I'm offering this flower: But it's really hard to read the different font sizes and colors and bolded and not bolded words.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
My leave in (trader joes tea tree tingle)contains protein. And i did not have any shedding.

Alright. I will edit this post and remove the colors. Thank you for the flower and advice

In my head, i thought that would make everything easier to read, as when different points were made they were being color coded. I will do that early tomorrow morning, though. It's already past 2 am and i am exhausted and my back hurts from sitting at the computer so long.
My leave in (trader joes tea tree tingle)contains protein. And i did not have any shedding.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
I hear you. But this is what I mean about products working together. The TJ may contain the ideal amount of protein for your hair type. This product is helping you achieve your individual conditioning-protein balance (sometimes called moisture-protein balance). To add in more more protein sources however (a gel with protein, for instance) can tip this balance unfavorably, causing overload of protein and brittle hair.
Zeldahime likes this.
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
My leave in (trader joes tea tree tingle)contains protein. And i did not have any shedding.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
I hear you. But this is what I mean about products working together. The TJ may contain the ideal amount of protein for your hair type. This product is helping you achieve your individual conditioning-protein balance (sometimes called moisture-protein balance). To add in more more protein sources however (a gel with protein, for instance) can tip this balance unfavorably, causing overload of protein and brittle hair.
Originally Posted by wavydaze

I have used many products on my hair that have caused build up and brittle hair. in the past, before learning about silicones an mineral oil. Yes, my hair was dry. Yes, my hair was brittle. But I never got bald spots. And If my hair broke, I could see it. Never from the roots. I have been natural for 7 years. I know my hair and the way it behaves, based on porosity, thickness, and hair type, leave it more or less volunerable to certain applications. I actually have written pages of this post emphasizing that. Note, title of the thread. hence the 360 turn around from before when using even more drying unwatersoluable silicones and mineral oil years ago(never had bald spots!) however, and there are times where I would glob heavy amount of pink oil to slick my hair back into a tiny puff when my hair got a little longer, to the point where my headscarf would be grease stained with mineral oil. I don't have picture of this, but I may look for some. Also like i said, i tried diluting the ecostyler in sheabutter. I mean like a dime size of ecostyler gel in about 1.5 oz of sheabutter an olive oil mixed. I still have the container buried some where for some reason. I also experimented with ecostyler blue level 5 and it did the same thing, thoroughly diluting it, still the bald spot got thinner. It was not the protein, period. I'm going to sleep.:











Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 02:12 AM.
SECOND:

Now, look at the word, triETHANOLamine. Ethanol.

Ethanol is a drying alcohol. If any of you are reporting dryness and brittleness, this is what is affecting you, it isn't random.

"Ethanolamine is an organic compound that is naturally found in coconut oil and is a primary amine and primary alcohol"
http://EzineArticles.com/6884068
Originally Posted by flowerpow
I think this has been covered in the thread but triethanolamine =/= ethanol, even if it has "ethanol" in the name. It's a different compound with a different function.

Interestingly, one of the sources you posted says this about TEA:

"Ethanolamine: Ethanolamine is by far the safest alkaline agent available for hair dye today. Ethanolamine is an organic compound that is naturally found in coconut oil and is a primary amine and primary alcohol. While some accuse ethanolamine as a "silent substitute" to ammonia because of its lack of odor, this is simply a misinformed categorization. Ethanolamine actually has the same odor of ammonia. However, some innovative hair care companies have developed advanced hair dye technologies that suspend the ethanolamine molecules in a soy oil base. By doing so, they are able to soften the cuticle and prevent ethanolamine from vaporizing as a gas thus eliminating both the odor and any damage to the cuticle. It is ethanolamine's primary alcohol characteristic that makes it possible to be suspended in a soy oil base as neither sodium carbonate (a primary salt) or ammonia (a primary base) will dilute with oil.

Ethanolamine has a tendency to gently swell the hair cuticle open rather than causing any corrosion associated with ammonia. It will not destroy the hair's tyrosine protein, disable the hair's ability to "hold" either natural or permanent pigment, damage hair follicles or the scalp's sebaceous glands, or otherwise irritate sensitive scalps. Ethanolamine does not pose any health risk, has a molecular weight large enough to be too large to be absorbed through the scalp's pores and follicles and into the bloodstream, and (when suspended in an organic oil such as soy) will not vaporize and actually have a deep conditioning effect on the cuticle.

Hair dye grade ethanolamine, of the quality necessary to produce a permanent hair dye effect, is cost prohibitive for most hair color manufacturers. As such, the only permanent hair color lines that use ethanolamine as their primary alkaline agent are advanced professional-only hair color lines.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6884068"



I mean I can't vouch for the scientific viability of the above article, but you did offer it as a source. I don't know how useful it is in our case, because it is addressing it in the context of hair dye. Still, this source offers it as a much gentler alternative to ammonia in hair dye, that can even have a beneficial effect to the hair when suspended in soy oil.

EWG says its functions are: "Fragrance Ingredient; pH Adjuster; Surfactant - Emulsifying Agent; BUFFERING; MASKING"

They also give it a 5, which is a very decent score for a site that I agree is alarmist (though I do personally use it, keeping everything in mind.)

I guess I'm just not seeing TEA as corrosive, and you're not putting straight TEA on your hair anyway. According to the info provided by Zeldahime's mum's cosmetic chemist DH its primary function in the gel is emulsifying agent and bonds with the carbomer in the gel, leaving no "free-floating" TEA molecules anyway. It is in lesser concentration that the carbomer, which is noteworthy.

You may still have an individual sensitivity to these gels, and I'm definitely not telling you to go back to them! Hope this helps!
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646

Last edited by wavydaze; 04-01-2014 at 02:36 AM.
SECOND:

Now, look at the word, triETHANOLamine. Ethanol.

Ethanol is a drying alcohol. If any of you are reporting dryness and brittleness, this is what is affecting you, it isn't random.

"Ethanolamine is an organic compound that is naturally found in coconut oil and is a primary amine and primary alcohol"
http://EzineArticles.com/6884068
Originally Posted by flowerpow
I think this has been covered in the thread but triethanolamine =/= ethanol, even if it has "ethanol" in the name. It's a different compound with a different function.

Interestingly, one of the sources you posted says this about TEA:

"Ethanolamine: Ethanolamine is by far the safest alkaline agent available for hair dye today. Ethanolamine is an organic compound that is naturally found in coconut oil and is a primary amine and primary alcohol. While some accuse ethanolamine as a "silent substitute" to ammonia because of its lack of odor, this is simply a misinformed categorization. Ethanolamine actually has the same odor of ammonia. However, some innovative hair care companies have developed advanced hair dye technologies that suspend the ethanolamine molecules in a soy oil base. By doing so, they are able to soften the cuticle and prevent ethanolamine from vaporizing as a gas thus eliminating both the odor and any damage to the cuticle. It is ethanolamine's primary alcohol characteristic that makes it possible to be suspended in a soy oil base as neither sodium carbonate (a primary salt) or ammonia (a primary base) will dilute with oil.

Ethanolamine has a tendency to gently swell the hair cuticle open rather than causing any corrosion associated with ammonia. It will not destroy the hair's tyrosine protein, disable the hair's ability to "hold" either natural or permanent pigment, damage hair follicles or the scalp's sebaceous glands, or otherwise irritate sensitive scalps. Ethanolamine does not pose any health risk, has a molecular weight large enough to be too large to be absorbed through the scalp's pores and follicles and into the bloodstream, and (when suspended in an organic oil such as soy) will not vaporize and actually have a deep conditioning effect on the cuticle.

Hair dye grade ethanolamine, of the quality necessary to produce a permanent hair dye effect, is cost prohibitive for most hair color manufacturers. As such, the only permanent hair color lines that use ethanolamine as their primary alkaline agent are advanced professional-only hair color lines.



Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6884068"

I mean I can't vouch for how scientific viability of the above article, but you did offer it as a source.

EWG says its functions are: "Fragrance Ingredient; pH Adjuster; Surfactant - Emulsifying Agent; BUFFERING; MASKING"

They also give it a 5, which is a very decent score for a site that I agree is alarmist (though I do personally use it, keeping everything in mind.)

I guess I'm just not seeing TEA as corrosive, and you're not putting straight TEA on your hair anyway. According to the info provided by Zeldahime's mum's cosmetic chemist DH its primary function in the gel is emulsifying agent and bonds with the carbomer in the gel, leaving no "free-floating" TEA molecules anyway. It is in lesser concentration that the carbomer, which is noteworthy.

You may still have an individual sensitivity to these gels, and I'm definitely not telling you to go back to them! Hope this helps!
Originally Posted by wavydaze

Please read all the posts. You just isolated one

part of it and omited the rest, making an

innacurate conclusion with half truths. and you

definitely did not read the entire explanation.

Read the whole thing FIRST,
then rebuttal. that is

how it works. Thereis proof that despite that it still

forms the compound and i already explained why. Just

read it. I can not do this anymore, i keep having to

repeat my selft over and over. You omitted all the

other explanations proving that that was a

misnomer, and i am getting frustrated with this.

Read the whole post okay? I already responded to

someone who brought the same thing up early in the

post. This rebuttal has already been proven to be

otherwise, andcontinuing this irrelevant back and forth

is what's making me get really stressed out.

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 02:22 AM.
Also like i said, i tried diluting the ecostyler in sheabutter. I mean like a dime size of ecostyler gel in about 1.5 oz of sheabutter an olive oil mixed. I still have the container buried some where for some reason. I also experimented with ecostyler blue level 5 and it did the same thing, thoroughly diluting it, still the bald spot got thinner. It was not the protein, period. I'm going to sleep.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Shea butter and oils primarily behave as occlusives, sealing moisture in and out of the hair. They're not conditioning (look for fatty alcohols, cationic surfactants) though have some emollient properties. I bring this up, because adding oil/butter to a protein product isn't "rebalancing" the product in terms of conditioning-protein balance. So that could be one issue. You'd have to dilute it with a true conditioner in order to "rebalance" it or so to speak... but even then, it could just be too much protein for your hair altogether.

Another thing I just realized, isn't ecostyler full of glycerin? Low dews and a humectant-heavy product could have been drying out your hair as well.

I hope you realize that I'm not being argumentative just to argue, I'm trying to be helpful and make sure all possibilities are covered.

You seem convinced that it wasn't the protein, and I don't agree with you here in discounting protein as the culprit, nor glycerin, nor another possibility. But again, I'm not telling you to go back to those gels, nor am I telling you to run and use another product with TEA.
Jimipe likes this.
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
Okay, look, there's no reason to stress. There's no reason to stress over a curly hair forum argument.

I think we're all in agreement anyway that KCCC is a better product and you should continue using it. If you wish to never use TEA again, by all means, don't use it.

Get some rest!
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
Also like i said, i tried diluting the ecostyler in sheabutter. I mean like a dime size of ecostyler gel in about 1.5 oz of sheabutter an olive oil mixed. I still have the container buried some where for some reason. I also experimented with ecostyler blue level 5 and it did the same thing, thoroughly diluting it, still the bald spot got thinner. It was not the protein, period. I'm going to sleep.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Shea butter and oils primarily behave as occlusives, sealing moisture in and out of the hair. They're not conditioning (look for fatty alcohols, cationic surfactants) though have some emollient properties. I bring this up, because adding oil/butter to a protein product isn't "rebalancing" the product in terms of conditioning-protein balance. So that could be one issue. You'd have to dilute it with a true conditioner in order to "rebalance" it or so to speak... but even then, it could just be too much protein for your hair altogether.

Another thing I just realized, isn't ecostyler full of glycerin? Low dews and a humectant-heavy product could have been drying out your hair as well.

I hope you realize that I'm not being argumentative just to argue, I'm trying to be helpful and make sure all possibilities are covered.

You seem convinced that it wasn't the protein, and I don't agree with you here in discounting protein as the culprit, nor glycerin, nor another possibility. But again, I'm not telling you to go back to those gels, nor am I telling you to run and use another product with TEA.
Originally Posted by wavydaze
I understand that, but many of the "lose ends" you are bringing up, I have already covered. I did not post my experience on amazon until i was 100% sure the gel was the culprit. I was in denial about it, because it had so much praise.

But after numerous experimenting with different ways of diluting the gel, including applying conditioner oil then gel, mixing the gel with oil, and applying it over my conditioner, applying oil on top of the gel, diluting eco blue hold 5 with water and a bit acv and putting that over my conditoner (which has conditioning properties) It didn't work. (then diluted more with even more acv. Still thinning. btw, acv is in my main regimen now and has contributed to my results. I have also noticed softer hair even back then from leaving diluted acv in my hair overnight. (I do not do that anymore though, now just an hour, and some weeks I'll do bakingsoda diluted in conditioner and water to remove gel cast too.)

I also never once in my entire natural hair journey applied gel on to my hair without using my silicone free conditioner first underneath on wet, already cowashed hair.


I do not use glycerin, mineral oil etc. in products. And unless my gel contained glycerin, glycerin wasn't a product i used until way after i solved the baldspot issue. It again made my hair feel really dry like straw, stiff (s curl activator) and brittle (i used it in decemeber) But did i suffer thinning? NO.

I have actually mixed the entire thing of ecostyler blue gel with water and some acv to really water it down. It still thinned my hair.

I also am not discounting that protein dried out my hair. Many things can take away from hyrdation, it doesn't not mean in everyone they will cause bald spots. but my hair has been equally if not more dryedout using silicones sulfates and mineral oil (heavy handedly) I did not suffer bald spots.

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 02:49 AM.
Okay, look, there's no reason to stress. There's no reason to stress over a curly hair forum argument.

I think we're all in agreement anyway that KCCC is a better product and you should continue using it. If you wish to never use TEA again, by all means, don't use it.

Get some rest!
Originally Posted by wavydaze

Thank you. It's 3:45 am and my upper back/ shoulders feels awful. I need to go to sleep. I don't think i have ever been on the computer this long in my life.
"Triethanolamine is an aminoalcohol. Neutralize acids to form SALTS plus water in exothermic reactions."
Triethanolamine | 102-71-6

[...]

"phs 10-14. depilatory. swell hairs as much as 10 times the original size; may dissolve hair."

http://images116.fotki.com/v715/phot...veproof-vi.jpg

Because TEA is the 3rd ingredient in this gel and has a ph of 10, Polyacrylate acid was used to balance the ph and neutralize TEA, and TEA make Polyacrylate acid water soluble. Unfortunately the combination of the two forms a drying effect on the hair-- it turns into SALT, aka Sodium Hydroxide, aka NaOH which is also water soluble, btw.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...4143837AAcJ1Im
this source is reliable despite being on yahoo answers, as it was answered by a top contributor in the chemistry section.

It is also the main dissolving agent in lye relaxers. Lye= NaOH= Salt=Sodium Hydroxide. Ethanolamine is also a form of ammonia.
“Triethanolamine is produced from the reaction of ethylene oxide with aqueous ammonia”
Triethanolamine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The alcohol does have a natural resistance to turning into salt and ammonia, however. BUT ONLY when oil is added to the formulation as a base. It needs to be oil based. Gel is water based, including this one. Salt is already drying, let alone putting the main ingredient used in relaxers in your product.
“It is ethanolamine's primary alcohol characteristic that makes it possible to be suspended in a soy Oil base as neither sodium carbonate (a primary salt) or ammonia (a primary base) will dilute with oil.”
http://EzineArticles.com/6884068

Conclusion.

Wet line. Very drying and in 3rd ingredient. The ingredient right after it, polyacrylate acid, meant to make up for the fact TEA had a depilatory ph of 10 that dissolves hair, forms a SALT compound called NaOH, aka lye or sodium hydroxide, commonly used as an agent to break bonds in the protein of the hair in hair relaxers. This is the case with all acids. This is just how triETHANOLamine reacts with acid, AND YOU JUST CAN'T PUT tEa in a hair product, with out adding some form of acidic compound to bring the ph down to a non-depilatory level. There are also many proven reports that TEA is an irritant, and has been linked to cancer. Hmmm.. Just like lye relaxers have been.


Let me repeat that in the most blatant way possible.

1. LYE relaxers, which active ingredient is SODIUM HYDROXIDE.
2. Relaxers have been linked to cancer.

3. THIS water based gel has ingredients, TRIETHANOLAMINE and POLYACRYLATE ACID which together, (unless formulated in an oil base, which this gel "WETLINE" is NOT, it's a water based gel, the first ingredient is water) form the exact same compound.

4. This gel has ingredients that forms a compound--> Sodium Hydroxide, Lye, NaOH, SALT. Whatever you want to call it.

5. Studies about Triethanolamine, already show "moderate" cancer link. Where is the cancer link coming from? Sodium Hydroxide.

This product markets itself as being alcohol free, when it isn’t. Moisturizing, when it isn’t. Many people also claim this is a “Protein Free” styling gel. For you protein sensitive‘s, It has panthenol, which absorbs into the hair cortex similar to ethanol and plasticizes it, leaving a gummy waxy build up after awhile that causes dryness similar to protein and coconut oil can. Hope I helped you guys.
Originally Posted by flowerpow

Okay, I think what you're saying is that the TEA is mixing with polyacrylate acid to form NaOH, which dissolves hair. This is key to your argument.


It's really unlikely that this gel would also be a mild relaxant. It would certainly eat through your hair, being a leave-on product, and one for repeat, even daily use. That would be a really really crappy product, and it would dissolve pretty much everyone's hair, not just yours and a few other unhappy reviewers' hair.

I've never used Ecostyler nor Wet Line and I'm not vouching for either, nor do I work for either company. From what I know of Ecostyler, it's a basic, cheap and fairly popular gel. it's hard for me to believe that it would literally dissolve your hair, when so many have good results. Even on Amazon for Ecostyler Olive, the majority of reviews are 5 star. If the gel literally melted your hair, it would have been off the shelves a long time ago, as the "pioneers," the first wave of customers to try it, would have had horrible results with it. The function of NaOH on hair is not quite individual. Most if not all would have reported permanent relaxing of their hair, followed by the hair's eventual dissolution with continued use. There probably would have been a lawsuit involved.

Because this gel seems fairly popular, and mass straightening effects are not being reported, and it has been around for a while, it is hard to believe that this gel's formulation is so deeply flawed that it would literally dissolve your hair. It also leads me to believe that this gel disagreed with your for other reasons (perhaps individual reasons) than the speculated reaction TEA + polyacrylate acid = NaOH.

A light google search did not give me results on "polyacrylate acid" but on "polyacrylic acid." (Is that the same thing?) If you re-read Zelda's post, she explained that there wouldn't be any free-floating TEA molecules in the gel anyway, so the exothermic reaction with another acidic molecule to produce salts wouldn't happen anyway.


I'm not saying this gel is right for you. I'm saying it's wrong for you for different reasons than you suspect. BTW, Ecostyler Olive is very protein heavy (2nd ingredient, wheat and hydrolized), as it is glycerin-heavy (4th ingredient). My money is still on these two ingredients being problematic in your routine, or it could be the overall formulation that's not agreeing with your hair.

Hope this helps.
2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots/normal po. shaft. normal elasticity.

Currently using:
Low-poo: Jason Mango bodywash, CeraVe Foaming
[/B]Cowash: Cure Care + water
RO: Cure Care, V05 KL, G SAS
Styler: UFD CM (old formula), FSG + CNPF, DE Shine & Refine, AB Strong Hold gel, SM C&S milk
PT: IAgirl's gelatine

hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
Neutral on cones.

iherb discount code: CFN646
First please please please flowerpow dont stress about this, its not worth it. We are here to learn, is not a battle.

Second, im not a chemist but I am a scientist. And I'm really sorry but saying that what you say is scientifically proved and all that is not right, and its not ok to say that. You are picking ideas and quotes from sources and getting your own conclusions from them, im sorry but that is not scientific backing up or demonstration, so please lets not say those things and have an open mind to other explanations to a very interesting subject you brought up.

So anyway, I wanted to repeat the fact that its not possible to have Na+ OH- in an acidic solution, carbomer or not. Your measuring the pH and getting something acid it proof enough (its not proof for the one that came out neutral though, we dont know how good those strips are) and if there is no OH- I underestand the disulfide bonds of hair cant break.

What Im concern anyway is about the toxicity claims, do we now under 5% concentration is somehow health aproved?
If you're going to back yourself up with sources, I would not choose random internet sites, especially reviews from amazon, or wherever you took the screenshots from. I'd like to see studies out of reputable journals or something. I'm glad there are some intelligent responses. There is no need to use 5 colors and 10 different sized fonts to get your point across. I see things like this and think spam bots or something.
Zeldahime, Jimipe and asagi like this.
2c-3a - coarse - normal-high porosity - high density - growing out to donate

NP/LP: KMF Whenever Cond./ Giovanni TTTT
RO/LI: CJ Argan & Olive Oil, KCKT, YTCucs
DT: Coconut Oil + scalp massage
OIL/STYLER: SM Elixir / KCCC, SS CEJ
COLOR: henna, amla & indigo

Last edited by sixelamy; 04-01-2014 at 08:30 AM.
If you're going to back yourself up with sources, I would not choose random internet sites, especially reviews from amazon, or wherever you took the screenshots from. I'd like to see studies out of reputable journals or something. I'm glad there are some intelligent responses. There is no need to use 5 colors and 10 different sized fonts to get your point across. I see things like this and think spam bots or something.
Originally Posted by sixelamy
no, i did not get this information from regular internet sites. These are from credible sources, with many links to scientific abstracts.
I'm sorry, but Wikipedia and answers.yahoo.com are not credible sources. Neither are reviews on a product page. Nor any listing for a product on any page. And an eZine article came from a hairdresser - John Massers is a widely recognized British hairdresser. Where are the scientists at? Because I surely don't see any.
Zeldahime, Jimipe and asagi like this.
2c-3a - coarse - normal-high porosity - high density - growing out to donate

NP/LP: KMF Whenever Cond./ Giovanni TTTT
RO/LI: CJ Argan & Olive Oil, KCKT, YTCucs
DT: Coconut Oil + scalp massage
OIL/STYLER: SM Elixir / KCCC, SS CEJ
COLOR: henna, amla & indigo
First please please please flowerpow dont stress about this, its not worth it. We are here to learn, is not a battle.

Second, im not a chemist but I am a scientist. And I'm really sorry but saying that what you say is scientifically proved and all that is not right, and its not ok to say that. You are picking ideas and quotes from sources and getting your own conclusions from them, im sorry but that is not scientific backing up or demonstration, so please lets not say those things and have an open mind to other explanations to a very interesting subject you brought up.

So anyway, I wanted to repeat the fact that its not possible to have Na+ OH- in an acidic solution, carbomer or not. Your measuring the pH and getting something acid it proof enough (its not proof for the one that came out neutral though, we dont know how good those strips are) and if there is no OH- I underestand the disulfide bonds of hair cant break.

What Im concern anyway is about the toxicity claims, do we now under 5% concentration is somehow health aproved?
Originally Posted by butter52
"No-lye relaxer
1 Application
Ingredients: Olive Oil Built
-
In Protection No
-
Lye Relaxer Base: Aqua (Water), Petrolatum, Paraffinum
Liquidum (Mineral Oil), Cetearyl Alcohol, Calcium Hydroxide, PEG
-
75 Lanolin, Propylene Glycol,
Ceteareth
-
20, Cocodimonium Hydroxypropyl Hydrolyzed Wheat Pr
otein, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil,
Polysorbate"

source:
http://www.meijer.com/assets/product...90124_info.pdf



now, You guy's keep arguing that the made reason it the ingredient is corrosive.

And yes, ethanolamine solubalizes all acids to turn into NaOH. I already provided a credible source explaining and proving that.

Ethanolamine onced bonded with an oil, will not produce the sodium effect. But I already explained and sourced from some scientific studies-- this only happens in oil based products. The first ingredient in this gel is water. Same with no lye relaxer. According to this scientifically supported info, oil can isolate the salting effects just as much as you claim carbomer does. In this relaxer, it contains 2 sets of mineral oils before the calcium hydroxide is added. This means there is more mineral oil in comparison to the calcium hydroxide. Also, low lye in relaxers has a potency of 2.5% sodium hydroxide, and are equally as effective as higher percentages. It just works slower. It is also claimed to be safe when you look it up on ewg. This product is still able to form sodium hydroxide, even though the concentrations are at 5%. It has already been shown that if the product is water based, no amount of oil or emollient occlusive will be enough to stop the reaction. That will only occur in oil based products.

look at the scientific study about how The fact that this is a clear gel means it was heated, and therefore the alcohol denatured. and triethanolamine is part of the ethanolamine group, it is classified as an amino alcohol.

These gels wouldn't be this clear if they didn't contain denatured alcohol. Below is a scientific study that shows the effect of denaturzation on the viscosity of protein systems. Note it also says some things about NaOH, which this product contains. No matter the amount of NaOH, it will always denature the protein systems in water based substances once heated. Once heated, that is when it forms a clear, gel consistency. This is where these products holding abilities and clear consistency come from.

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC2141169/pdf/341.pdf

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 08:58 AM.

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