You may want to avoid triETHANOLamine, depending on your hair type and sensitivities

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Im confused, what does the fact that calcium hidroxide is a low lye relaxer have to do with TEA?

And you yourself proved there is no relaxing! Its acid!

Edited: looked up at the article and it talks about viscosity of denatured protein solutions, what does that have to do with this? Im lost.
Originally Posted by butter52
okay, it's a lot so it can be confusing. it essentially proves that a alkaline subsance(The alkaline egg), the addition of an acid, water being a base, and the denaturing effects of heating, that NaOH will be produced. Why? Because it in total combination makes it difficult for the salt turning properties to completely dissolve, meaning the salt compound is still formed, also resulting in the clear color and gel consistency (aka "clear colored viscious liquid". With out heat, the colors would be "opalescent" With out heat, NaOH would not form.

Also NaOH's bond breaking properties are not singularily reliant on the ph alone. No where have i said the ph is what causes the hair bonds to break. Sodium bicarbonate would never have this effect on the hair. It's the fact that there is hydroxide in it that creates the difference. I have credible scientific sources that directly prove that. Will post them in edit.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Ok you are just making all that up. Just in case you are not a troll: the adding of NaOH or an acid to a protein solution (the albumin) will denature the protein (it breaks the protein structure, like heat also does), and denaturalized albumin is viscous. Thats it. Stop making it up, its ok not to know things, its just absurd to pray you know them when you dont even have a clue. Seriously im not trying to be disrespectfull, im just engcouraging you to take some basic chemistry books and enjoy learning from the basics.
Originally Posted by butter52
I'm not making it up. Everything i have said, i will post a link that identifies it. You are just not reading the eniter abstract because it says that. I haven't quoted it yet though. but i will edit and edit in the quotes/
So, I am a chemist even though I don't play one on TV... And I don't know enough about TEA and how it may or may not react with other things to produce NaOH, etc. I don't know enough about product formulation to answer those questions. So I won't try to address them. And I don't have the time to wade through the scientific literature at this time.

But I do take exception with a few things that were said, and would like to clear it up, so to speak:

Lots of organic compounds are colorless and transparent in nature. Lots of them - sugar, salt, gelatin sheets, what have you. Color and transparency don't have anything to do with proteins being denatured. Or whatever it is that's trying to be established; this had been hard to follow.

While NaOH does denature hair, so do a lot of other chemicals. Including acids. Cooking denatures proteins too, that's why cooked meat tastes so yummy and is easier to chew!

Denatured alcohol is NOT the same thing as a denatured protein - the latter has been altered via chemical reaction.

Denatured alcohol has an impurity added to it to make it unfit for human consumption (methanol, for example, or another bittering agent).

I don't see where TAE = denatured alcohol in any way.

Where TEA resembles ethanol or other small organic alcohols is that is contains three alcohol functional groups and is likely a drying agent (hygroscopic and volatile - it takes water with it as it evaporates). So, like other alcohols like rubbing alcohol, you may not want to use it on your hair. I have porous hair, so it won't be touching my head anyway.




/chemistry PSA over - semantics matter!/




The only other thing I would keep in mind is that ingredients lists are based on relative amounts. Even the third ingredient on a list might be a very minor component of the overall formulation. Unless a company decides to disclose the actual percentages, we don't really have an idea of just how much is in there to begin with.

Smorgasbord of finer, porous 2a-3a; straight underlayer

collagen
humectants outside of optimal dews, PVP, oils/butters, anything remotely comedogenic

poos: Giovanni TTT, Suave Clarifying
condishes: VO5 VMT, KLS; IonEC
stylers: FSG, 4NSBCC, Volumax, GFPC


Mod CG since 11/2012. My waves occasionally look best when combed out, so you can pry my combs from my cold, dead hands
I put my previous comments in blue and their

directly quoted supports below:



"The experiments on the viscosity of denatured egg

albumin solutions provide a possible explanation of the

difficulties encountered in the reversal of the

denaturation of egg albumin."


okay, it's a lot so it can be confusing. it essentially

proves that a alkaline subsance(The alkaline egg), the

addition of an acid, water being a base, and the

denaturing effects of heating, that NaOH will be

produced. (or something that behaves like NaOH, for

example Calcium Hydroxide.
"The main ingredient of "lye" relaxers is sodium

hydroxide; no-lye relaxers contain calcium hydroxide and guanidine carbonate,

and "thio" relaxers contain thioglycolic acid salts.[15] No-lye relaxers are

ADVERTISED to cause fewer scalp lesions and burns than lye relaxers, but there

is little evidence to support this claim." http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/759283_1
)




"Effect of Water Added before and after Heating.--If anacid

solution of albumin is diluted with water before it is heated, the

water has a much greater effect in lowering the viscosity than if

it is added after the heating of the more concentrated solution."


"Effect of Addition of Native Protein.--The addition of native,


salt-free egg albumin to albumin heated in acid has the same


sort of effect as the addition of NaOH."


Why? Because it in total combination makes it difficult

for the salt turning properties to completely dissolve,

meaning the salt compound and the compound that

behaves like salt (specifically NaOH) is still formed.






"Concentrated solutions of proteins in acid or alkali may

become very viscous on denaturation of the protein and

under suitable conditions a moderately viscous solution

can be converted by heating into a clear gel."


"The more acid the solutions the less viscous they are after

being heated and then cooled, until finally further addition of acid

makes them more viscous again and slightly opalescent. As in

other protein phenomena, after a certain point the addition of

acid has the same effect as the addition of salt."

also resulting in the clear color and gel consistency (aka

"clear colored viscious liquid". With out heat, the colors

would be "opalescent" With out heat, NaOH or similar

behaving compounds would not form.




"Effect of Addition of Native Protein.--The addition of native, salt-

free egg albumin to albumin heated in acid has the same sort of

effect as the addition of NaOH. "

Also NaOH's protein bond breaking properties are not

singularily reliant on the ph alone
. No where have i

said the ph is what causes the hair bonds to break in

this gel. Sodium bicarbonate would never have this

effect on the hair. Neither would sodium chloride.




No, i am not a troll. That is a ridiculous thing to say, and

no, i am not stupid. and yes i do have things to do. I

have been multitasking like everyone else here.

Lots of organic compounds are colorless and transparent in nature. Lots of them - sugar, salt, gelatin sheets, what have you. Color and transparency don't have anything to do with proteins being denatured. Or whatever it is that's trying to be established; this had been hard to follow.
Originally Posted by SpiralHam
"Concentrated solutions of proteins in acid or alkali may

become very viscous on denaturation of the protein and

under suitable conditions a moderately viscous solution

can be converted by heating into a clear gel."

All quotes were gotten here:

http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC2141169/pdf/341.pdf


THE EFFECT OF DENATURATION ON THE VISCOSITY OF PROTEIN SYSTEMS BY M. L.

ANSON A~D A. E. MIRSKY (From tke Laboratories of The Rockefeller Institute for

Medical Research, Princeton, N. Y., and the ttospital of The Rockefeller Institute for

Medical Researck, New York) (Accepted for publication, December 2, 1931]

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 12:07 PM.
:
Lots of organic compounds are colorless and transparent in nature. Lots of them - sugar, salt, gelatin sheets, what have you. Color and transparency don't have anything to do with proteins being denatured. Or whatever it is that's trying to be established; this had been hard to follow.

Originally Posted by SpiralHam
"Concentrated solutions of proteins in acid or alkali may

become very viscous on denaturation of the protein and

under suitable conditions a moderately viscous solution

can be converted by heating into a clear gel
."


"The more acid the solutions the less viscous they are after

being heated and then cooled, until finally further addition of acid

makes them more viscous again and slightly opalescent. As in

other protein phenomena, after a certain point the addition of

acid has the same effect as the addition of salt.
"


Primary sourced Quotes were from here:


http://europepmc.org/articles/PMC2141169/pdf/341.pdf


THE EFFECT OF DENATURATION ON THE VISCOSITY OF PROTEIN SYSTEMS BY M. L.

ANSON A~D A. E. MIRSKY (From tke Laboratories of The Rockefeller Institute for

Medical Research, Princeton, N. Y., and the ttospital of The Rockefeller Institute for

Medical Researck, New York) (Accepted for publication, December 2, 1931

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 11:59 AM.
Very fine, high porosity, currently dyed and growing out the relaxed portions. I'm pretty sure my hair's 3b something IIRC. We will be finding out for sure as time goes by.

It's official: My hair just loves Shea Moisture. I use a mixture of products from the Raw Shea Butter, African Black Soap, and Coconut & Hibiscus lines.
Originally Posted by Zeldahime
I can't most of read that, but maybe you should try reading all the quoted facts instead of being so hardheaded, and misleading people.
Ok you win, I quit. This makes no sense to me.

First news I have that if I add some vinegar on my fried egg Ill get lye and it will turn transparent. First news table salt is alkaline like NaOH.

Still dont underestand what this has to do with TEA, Im sorry im dumb.

Had fun chatting with you and im glad your beautiful hair is recovering
flowerpow likes this.
Ok you win, I quit. This makes no sense to me.

First news I have that if I add some vinegar on my fried egg Ill get lye and it will turn transparent. First news table salt is alkaline like NaOH.

Still dont underestand what this has to do with TEA, Im sorry im dumb.

Had fun chatting with you and im glad your beautiful hair is recovering
Originally Posted by butter52
You are not dumb, this stuff is incredibly confusing for any normal person, which is why I had to spend dozens of hours straight for days studying the abstracts and reading every last bit of the full study.

There is a quote addressing the fact that the acid must be heated along with it after. Also, that only happens with a certain range of acids. No, table salt is not anywhere near basic enough to have that effect, which is in the direct quotations. Also, this is not a regular egg, it's very basic. Regular Eggs are neutral. This is a special egg used in the experiment.

I will reclarify why TEA is involved with more quotes, don't worry.
Ok you win, I quit. This makes no sense to me.

First news I have that if I add some vinegar on my fried egg Ill get lye and it will turn transparent. First news table salt is alkaline like NaOH.

Still dont underestand what this has to do with TEA, Im sorry im dumb.

Had fun chatting with you and im glad your beautiful hair is recovering
Originally Posted by butter52
You are not dumb, this stuff is incredibly confusing for any normal person, which is why I had to spend dozens of hours straight for days studying the abstracts and reading every last bit of the full study.

There is a quote addressing the fact that the acid must be heated along with it after. Also, that only happens with a certain range of acids. No, table salt is not anywhere near basic enough to have that effect, which is in the direct quotations. Also, this is not a regular egg, it's very basic. Regular Eggs are neutral. This is a special egg used in the experiment.

I will reclarify why TEA is involved with more quotes, don't worry.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Its ok dont worry, im not going to underestand so dont bother. I apreciate it anyway.
I have trouble with silk protein, it broke my hair off in one big clump. It's not a wonder, because silk comes from pigs!! The link below supports this idea:

(link removed)

Silk is made from polyester, no wonder.
Originally Posted by sixelamy
But you still saw shedding, right? I had not, and i handled and observed my hair, double checked my pillows, my satin bonnet, carefully detangled my hair in sections (not excessive shedding was found)

Also, my bald spot was smooth and round with no sign of newgrowth. Not even peach fuzz, not dark brown dots. This is similar in how lye effects some people. Of course my effects happened slowly, and so the effects were muted. If you lost hair from a lye relaxer, it would happen immediately in larger amounts



a protein allergy would never do that, and if you did you would see shedding. and also I regularly do protein treatments with both animal protein(egg) and yogurt. No issues. My conditioner also contains trace amount of protein. No problems.

Last edited by Guide30; 04-01-2014 at 02:12 PM. Reason: spam link removed
Ok you win, I quit. This makes no sense to me.

First news I have that if I add some vinegar on my fried egg Ill get lye and it will turn transparent. First news table salt is alkaline like NaOH.

Still dont underestand what this has to do with TEA, Im sorry im dumb.

Had fun chatting with you and im glad your beautiful hair is recovering
Originally Posted by butter52
You are not dumb, this stuff is incredibly confusing for any normal person, which is why I had to spend dozens of hours straight for days studying the abstracts and reading every last bit of the full study.

There is a quote addressing the fact that the acid must be heated along with it after. Also, that only happens with a certain range of acids. No, table salt is not anywhere near basic enough to have that effect, which is in the direct quotations. Also, this is not a regular egg, it's very basic. Regular Eggs are neutral. This is a special egg used in the experiment.

I will reclarify why TEA is involved with more quotes, don't worry.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Its ok dont worry, im not going to underestand so dont bother. I apreciate it anyway.
Originally Posted by butter52
No problem, but I am still going to post it for the sake of everyone else, so it doesn't get brought up again.
You know... I got to thinking from your posts, that lye actually comes from pig testicles. So maybe these are connected somehow.

spam link removed
Originally Posted by sixelamy
That makes no sense, and you are trolling and not supporting what you are saying with facts. Please do not continue to troll this thread with ridiculous information.

Last edited by Guide30; 04-01-2014 at 02:13 PM. Reason: spam link removed
You know... I got to thinking from your posts, that lye actually comes from pig testicles. So maybe these are connected somehow.

This Pig Has Huge Testicles! | WTFoodge
Originally Posted by sixelamy
That makes no sense, and you are trolling and not supporting what you are saying with facts. Please do not continue to troll this thread with ridiculous information.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Not only that, but you even proceed to imply that my own experience is irrelevant. Very disrespectful.
Originally Posted by sixelamy
You supported your experience with a video on some humourous website about pig testicles. Your abstract was a graphic design abstract about pig neck ties. And I have proven the tiethanolamin forms NaOH with acidic compound and heat, and water based. The compund is called, TRIETHANOLAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE, NaOH.

You are spreading lies and your disagreements have

been thoroughly proved baseless as a result of you

not reading the thread or any of the scientific studies.

Last edited by flowerpow; 04-01-2014 at 12:56 PM.

That makes no sense, and you are trolling and not supporting what you are saying with facts. Please do not continue to troll this thread with ridiculous information.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Not only that, but you even proceed to imply that my own experience is irrelevant. Very disrespectful.
Originally Posted by sixelamy
You supported your experience with a video on some humourous website about pig testicles. Your abstract was a graphic design abstract about pig neck ties. And I have proven the tiethanolamin forms NaOH with acidic compound and heat, and water based. The compund is called, TRIETHANOLAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Yes, that's what I said, TEA comes from pigs. A scientist designed that necktie so it doesn't choke people to death. I have proven this.
Zeldahime, twirlygranny and asagi like this.
2c-3a - coarse - normal-high porosity - high density - growing out to donate

NP/LP: KMF Whenever Conditioner/ YTCucs
RO/LI: Sevi Pumpkin Seed DC / CJ Argan & Olive Oil, KCKT, YTBbs
DT: Coconut Oil + scalp massage
OIL/STYLER: SM Elixir / KCCC
COLOR: henna, amla & indigo

Not only that, but you even proceed to imply that my own experience is irrelevant. Very disrespectful.
Originally Posted by sixelamy
You supported your experience with a video on some humourous website about pig testicles. Your abstract was a graphic design abstract about pig neck ties. And I have proven the tiethanolamin forms NaOH with acidic compound and heat, and water based. The compund is called, TRIETHANOLAMINE HYDROCHLORIDE.
Originally Posted by flowerpow
Yes, that's what I said, TEA comes from pigs. A scientist designed that necktie so it doesn't choke people to death. I have proven this.
Originally Posted by sixelamy

Ignore
sixelamy everyone. She is directly against scientific objective fact, and has now proceeded to harass me by spamming my thread with joke comments to undermine proven scientific fact.
Where did I say I am against scientific objective fact? I was actually asking you for the facts, but you couldn't give them to me.
2c-3a - coarse - normal-high porosity - high density - growing out to donate

NP/LP: KMF Whenever Conditioner/ YTCucs
RO/LI: Sevi Pumpkin Seed DC / CJ Argan & Olive Oil, KCKT, YTBbs
DT: Coconut Oil + scalp massage
OIL/STYLER: SM Elixir / KCCC
COLOR: henna, amla & indigo
At this point, everyone will have to agree to disagree. I believe this thread has run it's course and will be closed.
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