my hair wont clump like it used to? :(

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I have type 4 tightly curled hair. Even in the shower my hair will curl right up. I don't think all type 4 hair is wooley.
...Often 4a-c hair grows naturally not clumping or frizzy at the root with no build up whatsoever. In fact as a hairstylist, I can tell you that often 4 hair does not clump naturally. It just naturally grows that way...
Originally Posted by dixygirl
Thank you for saying this! As a mom of a non-clumping, type 4 naturalista in the making I can definitely attest to the fact that "frizzy" is not necessarily a sign that something is wrong .

I think a good rule of thumb when it comes to figuring out if you have build up (or need more moisture/protein etc.) is that you should compare your hair to itself. If you don't normally have a problem with your hair absorbing moisture and all of a sudden that becomes a problem that may very well be a sign that you have build up, in that case you should clarify. If your hair is normally voluminous using product x in a particular way and all of a sudden your hair seems to be less voluminous even though you are still using product x in the same way that may also be a sign that you have build up (but in that case, if you like the way your hair looks and you are not having problems retaining moisture you may not want to get rid of it).
Hair
Type: 3c/b; Density: M; Texture: M-C; Porosity: L-N; Length: APL curly, WL stretched

Products
Oil: CO, MO
Cleanser: SM Moisture Retention Shampoo
Conditioner: SM Restorative Conditioner/ Noni and Monoi Conditioner
DC: SM Noni and Monoi Mask
Leave-In: Giovani Direct
Styler: CRN Curl Maker

Regimen
Condition twice a week; Cleanse once a week; DC as needed; Henna as needed.

CG since 3/31/12
Hennahead since 7/2/13
http://www.youtube.com/user/BlkButterfly777/videos
If your silicone conditioner is giving ypu great results then keep using it. Silicones don't weigh down hair. The non water soluble ones prevent moisture from entering strands thus causing dryness overtime. Non water soluble cones can only be removed by sulfates which tend to be to harsh for most nonstraight hair. AGAIN SILICONES DO NOT WEIGH DOWN HAIR. Only using too much conditioner and heavy oils or styling products will weigh hair down.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
Zeldahime likes this.
3b/c, medium-coarse, low porosity, high density
HG: Jessicurl Too Shea and Kinky Curly Curling Custard
Shampoo: nonsulfate shampoo and Suave Naturals sulfate shampoo when needed
4b/c hair does grow out frizzy usually because it doesn't have a uniform curl pattern and resembles a cloud instead of a mass of curls. However, type 3 and even 4a hair becomes a mass of frizz when it isn't treated right. This can be because of build up, styling techniques, products, haircut, etc.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
3b/c, medium-coarse, low porosity, high density
HG: Jessicurl Too Shea and Kinky Curly Curling Custard
Shampoo: nonsulfate shampoo and Suave Naturals sulfate shampoo when needed
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 279
I forgot to add. What I said about type 4 hair also applies to some Afro type 3 hair as well. Some Afro type 3 hair is just wiry naturally when wet. This is frequently with coarse, Afro type 3 hair that has no product buildup whatsoever. I have run into those frequently also as a stylist.It is also the case with a lot of gray hair and I can personally attest to that. Some of my gray strands are very wiry and just pop up that way from day one.
Yes maybe part of the reason if this issue is because I DONT clarify nor do I use a clarifying shampoo.
I only cowash and that's it, at times I might get results I don't usually get but at times I do, but I might actually add clarifying to my regime, and see how the results go.

I've done lots of research on clarifying using ACV and discovered that it aids with moisture removing buildup and aiding curl definition.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 279
Please be careful with clarifying. That totally dried my hair out. If your hair is not oily and does not feel coated in anyway I would personally avoid that because I know personally how clarifying destroys dry hair. What I was saying above is that wiriness is just natural for some hair and silicone actually HELPS some hair to clump better. If you ever used to use silicone products and then stopped for a long time, they could have simply just worn out of the hair finally revealing your natural hair texture without silicone coating as a clumping aid.
Let us know how it goes.
testimony777 and Coiffedcoils like this.
I've cant really remember having much of a frizzy natural 4a texture until looking back and seeing how much my curls have changed through one year (based on the pics I posted)

I was also thinking could it be the heat damage that I used? Could my hair have changed due to the heat damage which made my hair look looser and clumped and now that most of my heat damage is done, is it the reason why my hair had became frizzy/wooly like.

Last edited by IVacurls; 05-04-2014 at 09:49 AM.
Please be careful with clarifying. That totally dried my hair out. If your hair is not oily and does not feel coated in anyway I would personally avoid that because I know personally how clarifying destroys dry hair. What I was saying above is that wiriness is just natural for some hair and silicone actually HELPS some hair to clump better. If you ever used to use silicone products and then stopped for a long time, they could have simply just worn out of the hair finally revealing your natural hair texture without silicone coating as a clumping aid.
Let us know how it goes.
Originally Posted by dixygirl
Ohh okay, I will be very careful with that and most Defiantly keep you all updated when I wash on Wednesday.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 279
Yes Iva, I have definitely seen use of heat make the ends of hair especially clump nicely when wet. So it could be that either your heat damaged hair or your silicone treated hair now either grown out or the product worn off so you see it natural for a change!
If you must clarify, I would definitely do a prepoo first to try to minimize its drying effect on Afro hair. Maybe just put some oil in the hair for an hour before you clarify.
good luck with that. I personally just think you are finally seeing your natural texture, for good or for bad.
If it doesn't miraculously start clumping again after clarifying (I really doubt it will) you might want to go to cones to help with clumping.

Last edited by dixygirl; 05-04-2014 at 09:58 AM.
Wiry hair and frizz aren't the same thing. Coarse hair regardless if it's straight, wavy, curly or kinky will never feel as smooth as other textures. However most coarse and wiry hair types need a lot of moisture which helps the hair to not stick up, lay smoother or clump into curls. Coarse hair requires much more moisture than is typical than medium and fine textures which seem to be more common in Western culture. Most hairstylists are taught to only deal with fine to medium straight to slightly wavy not too thick hair which most people don't have.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using CurlTalk App
3b/c, medium-coarse, low porosity, high density
HG: Jessicurl Too Shea and Kinky Curly Curling Custard
Shampoo: nonsulfate shampoo and Suave Naturals sulfate shampoo when needed
I've cant really remember having much of a frizzy natural 4a texture until looking back and seeing how much my curls have changed through one year (based on the pics I posted)

I was also thinking could it be the heat damage that I used? Could my hair have changed due to the heat damage which made my hair look looser and clumped and now that most of my heat damage is done, is it the reason why my hair had became frizzy/wooly like.
Originally Posted by IVacurls
Yes, this is what has happened. I never seen or witnessed for myself silicones 'weighing' this type of hair down to look that smooth as the first picture. The first picture looks like heat damaged hair to me, while the second looks like healthy frizz prone hair. Heat can knock some of the kinks out of type 4 hair making it clump easier and look smoother. It can also change the porosity of the hair making it readily accept/absorb moisture/water better. You can try to use silicones again just to check though, and if I'm wrong about what I said I'm sorry. I just never seen silicones do that and this reminds me very much of typical heat damage on 4's.

Please don't clarify your hair with a sulfate, or at the least like dixy said, be careful of doing that as that can make the curls you see now 'disappear'(aka dry out your hair) until moisture levels are restored back into the hair...and that can take a while. I suggest using a low poo to 'clarify' your hair if you must clarify.

When a 4 has build up, it's usually pretty visual. You should be able to see product(white/grey/brown/flaky) between your curls when you separate them. Product build up, personally makes my hair knot or matt more frequently as well.
Zeldahime likes this.
@dixygirl @coiffedcoils
It's coincidental that you adviced me not to do the ACV because it turns out there was no more apple cider vinegar when we went to the market today! And maybe you guys are right..it probably is just the heat damage it seems like I would just have to face facts and accept and take good care of my frizzy, nappy curl texture.

I guess I will just proceed on with my regular regime but just adding weekly deep conditioner (using naptural85's banana recipe) since it gave me some good results!

Like they Say "if it's not broken then don't fix it!"
IVacurls, I have never had problems with ACV, as far as cleansing and dryness, but I find it only clarifies my scalp, my hair not so much. However, I don't use a lot of it because I hate the smell.
If you do want to try it in the future, it shouldn't be a problem.
The weekly deep condition should definitely help you maintain the health of your hair and possibly improve clumping.
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,073
As someone posted elsewhere, some people are programmed to expect the hair to have a squeaky clean stripped feeling when wet. This is why the hair just doesn't feel clean to them when they co wash because it does not leave the hair devoid of all oils What silicones intentionally adds to the hair is a slippery feeling when wet. You may describe that as feeling as if it is coated with plastic, others who LIKE the feeling describe it simply as SLIP.

So we see biases everywhere...
Originally Posted by dixygirl
That's not necessarily so, I never liked the "squeaky" shampoo clean feeling, it always felt unnatural, plus to me there is a big difference between well-conditioned hair that does not tangle and "plastic" coating. I love slip, especially when my hair is longer rather than short, but I certainly do not like the plastic coating some COs leave - and it doesn't even have to be ones with 'cones!

I've noticed that with the cheaper Suave ones and even at least one of the VO5s (and I like most of these)
on occasion. I will never forget that when I first started CG in FL, where the water was medium hard, I got instant gummy buildup in my hair thanks to 2 Suave COs right in the shower; my hair was a few inches below my shoulders and it has always been color-treated and I couldn't detangle it that day so I added more CO, possibly of the 2nd type of Suave and my wide-tooth comb would not get through and my hair felt like rubber so I clarified with lemon juice.

What I'm trying to say is that slip is in no way like the plastic coating Blueblood mentioned, this can come from too much of some 'cones such as dimethicone, some of the polyquats and ingredients in some gels and stylers. And any type of buildup, besides giving me frizz, definitely leaves my hair looking dull and feeling uncooperative. But I'm well aware that my hair type is very different than say a 4, so I'm just putting this here for others who may be reading this thread too.

Last edited by CGSince2002; 05-05-2014 at 02:13 AM.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 279
@CGSince2002 Perhaps the things you've described have a lot to do with hard water causing mineral build ups in the hair. I have never felt that in my hair with those products. But I also do not have hard water and have a water filter on the shower head.

On a side note, I recently saw a couple videos on Youtube of Caucasians consistently saying their hair felt like plastic with Silicon Mix conditioner. Meanwhile, the vast majority of Blacks all said their hair felt amazing. Sure there were a few scattered here and there who disagreed, but by and large a huge majority of reviews by Blacks found Kanechom and Silicon Mix together to be like the next coming of Christ while the few Caucasians who did try either were consistently talking about plastic feelings. So I guess the answer is obvious. Certain things work for some and don't for others. So as I always say, you just do you and I will do me. That way we will all be happy. I will be unhappy doing what works for your hair because 1) I don't have your hair and 2) it fried my hair when I tried and I am hearing that the same is true for you.
Happy hair journey

PS I just remembered, about almost 10 years ago, I did once have something on top of my hair. But that was back when I was doing relaxers and I do remember a distinct coated feeling back then. I also was NOT even using a lot of silicones then either. So I have no idea what that was about. But I have felt nothing even remotely similar in the past 5 yrs. ( Oh I remember, I was doing mouses back then) But everyone's hair is different. Mouses WORK for some people. To each his own.

Last edited by dixygirl; 05-05-2014 at 04:37 AM.
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,073
I said the water in FL was "medium hard" because the one where I live now is definitely soft, but water always has some minerals in it anyway. The minerals don't accumulate just by putting the water on alone, it's the compounds that are formed when we use products with certain ingredients that usually causes the "gunk". After switching to a different CO for co-wash and an organic one for LI I didn't have buildup again (and also NO frizz).

Also, since I color my hair, even when I only ran color down to the ends like every other month, I now believe that was enough to remove any possible accumulation of anything, so one could say I was "clarifying" without even intending to. I DO own several products that contain either a 'cone or polyquat (or both), vegetable wax, etc. but since I also rarely use the same combo every single time, I'm sure that helps too (and now that I have 4 new products to try there is even less of a chance!).

AND, as you yourself pointed out, damaged hair can actually benefit from a little protective "coating", to fill in the nicks in the cuticle, and since
in the past couple of months I've stripped color with bleach once and colored repeatedly, all over my hair, I do intend to use 'cones as needed, especially phenyl trimethicone which I recently found out does not cause buildup.

However, I do want to add that in the first Curly Girl book L. Massey didn't actually diss on 'cones, I didn't see anywhere that she ever said they don't allow moisture in. All she really said is "I suggest that you don't use products with silicones", which implies choice, and the reason is because shampoo would be needed and the central message of the book is to stay away from [harsh] shampoos. But even then there were gentle shampoos out there like "Creme of Nature", to just name one, so obviously, if after shampooing the hair doesn't feel rough, then there's no need to be "shampoo-free".

I remember though that some time later I participated in an online chat featuring L.M. and I seem to recall by then she had sort of become 'cone-phobic but I can't even be sure that's true or I'm just imagining it as it was many years ago, it could very well be someone else who started the "phobia".

By the same token, whenever companies that use a certain ingredient come to its defense and may even fund "studies" about it
denying any negatives and only extolling its virtues in a "one-size" fits all kind of way, I feel very suspicious of their motives... Nothing in this world is perfect and EVERYTHING has a downside, at least when over used, so my motto for everything is "moderation is key".

Therefore, I DO agree that it's up to every individual to put things to the test and see how their own hair reacts to anything, as even similar types of hair can be different due to a number of factors (such as nutritional and environmental). And when something that's "magic" for others doesn't work for them no one should be upset and say "its crap", just move on to the next product, there's more than plenty out there to cover every single need.
Hey guys! I just did an ACV and currently doing my banana deep conditioner (based on naptural85 recipe)

I was a little scared at first when using the ACV so I didn't use to much but when I was done and saw how soft my hair was I kinda wished I used a little more!

But anyways ..my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399506847.604623.jpg
my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399506862.126450.jpg

first picture is after rinsing out the ACV and the second is putting on the deep conditioner
This is the side of my hair with the deep conditioner
my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399506913.451593.jpg

And the very front
my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399506946.344087.jpg


More to come when I rinse it out!
Back
my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399511861.677452.jpg

Side
my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399511880.691668.jpg

Front
my hair wont clump like it used to? :(-imageuploadedbycurltalk1399511891.681912.jpg


I decided NOT to go back to my old conditioner since I figured it was just the heat damage that made my hair appear clumped and looser than before

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