Cones, polyquats, ions, and removal of buildup

I've used Aloe Rid shampoo and it works well. I use Kenra clarifying now...I think it matches Aloe Rid, I might like the Kenra a little better, I don't know. The Aloe Rid clarifying solution (to be used in addition to the shampoo for extra clarifying) is kind of weird though. It's very, very liquidy and it didn't feel like it distributed well through my hair. I couldn't tell if it did anything or not. Maybe its just because I'm used to having suds from cleansing products and the clarifying solution had none. I switched to the KMS clarifying solution, which is a lot thicker and produced a paste-like feel on my hair, which made me feel like it worked better. Who knows though.
I just got (for my son, but I used it yesterday), the generic in Sallys of the Nexus Aloe Rid. Good product.
2C/3A auburn hair.
between shoulders and BSL
Can an ACV or Lemon-Aid remove all these 'cones from the hair? Even the hard-to-remove ones?
When Lorraine designed CG (of which ACV and lemon-aid are clarifiers), it was a no-cone (at least none of the hard to remove ones) system.

As for me, personally, ACV never removed the cyclomethicone from Biosilk treatment, when I used to use that serum. So I'd say no, ACVs are not going to remove the hard-to-remove cones.

ACVs or lemon-aid are designed to remove buildup from natural stuff (dirt, serebrum (sp?), etc) and product accumulation and is not designed to remove the stuff Lorraine has suggested CGers avoid completely.
so are there any products that don't contain cones, polyquats, or ions that are acceptable for someone who wants to wash strictly with conditioner (and/or lemonaid, acv)?
Faith, 3Aish redhead
Mama to two wild superheroes and a curly-headed baby boy
LauraBeth33, thanks so much for the quick reply. One more question, do you feel that cyclomethicone in a conditioner that was rinsed out would be any easier to remove than, say, if it were in a serum or gel?

Michelle
so are there any products that don't contain cones, polyquats, or ions that are acceptable for someone who wants to wash strictly with conditioner (and/or lemonaid, acv)?
Originally Posted by PixieCurl
Ohh, excellent question!
3a/2c f/mii. pics added 2/3/07
so are there any products that don't contain cones, polyquats, or ions that are acceptable for someone who wants to wash strictly with conditioner (and/or lemonaid, acv)?
Originally Posted by PixieCurl
Technically, any product that contains the water soluble cones would be fine for conditioner wash alone.

What kind of product are you looking for? Jessicurl's stuff is cone, polyquat, and ion-free. Many individual products are the same, though it's hard to find a whole line that way.

Since ACV and lemonaid work by increasing the pH of the hair to a more acidic pH, they wouldn't help with artificial ingredients like cones, polyquats, or other ionically charged ingreds, you're right.

Does Lorraine suggest some people never use her Low Poo (or a similar product like Jessicurl HCC)? I thought, since OneCondition added that cone she had been suggesting occasionaly use of Low Poo to "refresh" the hair. Otherwise, the CG creator would have non-CG products. Irony abounding on that one.

If you were to use a coco betaine containing low-poo type product (sulfate-free of course), all the cones but the hard-to-remove ones, polyquats, and ionically charged ingredients would be removed.

Oh, a random thought, the ionically charged technology utilized by ISO is probably why the ingredients in Bouncy Cream looked CG-friendly but still people got buildup from the polyquat-37 and ionically charged other ingredients.

LauraBeth33, thanks so much for the quick reply. One more question, do you feel that cyclomethicone in a conditioner that was rinsed out would be any easier to remove than, say, if it were in a serum or gel?
Originally Posted by SierraEcho
I have found quantity to have everything to do with that, so let me answer this very specifically.

The type of product would not effect buildup; however, the amount of cyclomethicone in a product would.

For example, a conditioner that has cyclomethicone as the 10th ingredient is going to have less of it and will buildp slower than a conditioner with cyclomethicone (or cyclopentasiloxane, more commonly) as the second or third ingredient. Likewise, if a serum is primarily dimethicone and cyclomethicone is lower on the list, it would buildup slower than a primarily cyclomethicone serum like Frizz Ease.

Conditioners generally will have less cyclomethicone than a serum because it is a heavier, more substantial cone. Conditioners are more frequently having cyclopentasiloxane as the second ingredient after water, and these would build up slower than a cyclopentasiloxane serum that has cyclopentasiloxane as the first ingredient.
thanks for the reply laurabeth. i'm not necessarily opposed to a low-poo type product, but i'd rather not use one if i don't have to. these are the products i use / have used / like and maybe you can let me know if they will build up only washing with conditioner? i'll list what possible problem ingredients i know but i don't know them all.

no poo - my conditioner wash
one condition - i know it has amodimethicone
angell - has peg-7 amodimethicone
mister right
boots - no cones, apparently has a polyquat?
re:coil - not sure, i know it has those m&m preservatives but i haven't had any irritation
anything jessicurl - love awe inspiraling spray, not crazy about RR + CCSS
abba weightless gel
suave professionals firm control gel

thanks so much for the help!!!
Faith, 3Aish redhead
Mama to two wild superheroes and a curly-headed baby boy
This is from another thread where I asked about Boots being able to get removed with water or conditioner.

Polyquaternium-10 is quaternary ammonium-modified hydroxyethyl cellulose. The ammonium modification imparts a positive charge along the backbone of the polymer, which aids in making the polymer substantive to the hair (which has some negative charge). These polymers are sparingly soluble in water, but from my experience can be quite the bear to get to go into water and require a lot of heating and mixing. So to me, the possibility of being able to rinse a polymer like this off your hair in hot shower water is there, but the possibility of eventual build-up is also there, as I feel removal would be incomplete and that with each successive use, you would get more and more build-up.
Originally Posted by Swirlycurly Chemist

I am now wondering if....

If you were to use a coco betaine containing low-poo type product (sulfate-free of course), all the cones but the hard-to-remove ones, polyquats, and ionically charged ingredients would be removed.
Originally Posted by laurabeth33
....not even coco betaine (a product like HCC) can remove Boots (Polyquaternium-10)?



I use the Jessicurl line too, but I also use Boots. I am trying really hard to like RR and CCSS, but they are so uneven in results so I reach for Boots sometimes. I would like to only use Co washes but with all the stuff that cause buildup out there, it seems almost impossible.

Kurlee:

I think Laurabeth was saying that coco betaine will remove cones and polyquats and other ionically charged molecules will be removed, but not the really difficult cones (ie. cyclopentasilixane).
Type 3a/3b, fine/medium hair, modified CG since 12/2003, Using CHS Curl Keeper, Bioterra gel, Ojon, Elucence
http://public.fotki.com/curlymel/ Password: curls[U][COLOR=#fe840d]
*ops, I posted something here that was supposed to go in another thread*

Anyways, Thanks Curlymel. I guess I got confused. :P
And I like "your" answer better when I just ordered 3 jars of Boots...

*ops, I posted something here that was supposed to go in another thread*

Anyways, Thanks Curlymel. I guess I got confused. :P
And I like "your" answer better when I just ordered 3 jars of Boots...
Originally Posted by Kurlee
I don't poo very much and I have not seen build up with Boots. I also like gelee and can't say I have really noticed build up. I guess everyone is different. But maybe I should poo with a gentle poo for a week and see if my hair looks any different. The experimenting never ends!
Type 3a/3b, fine/medium hair, modified CG since 12/2003, Using CHS Curl Keeper, Bioterra gel, Ojon, Elucence
http://public.fotki.com/curlymel/ Password: curls[U][COLOR=#fe840d]
Kurlee:

I think Laurabeth was saying that coco betaine will remove cones and polyquats and other ionically charged molecules will be removed, but not the really difficult cones (ie. cyclopentasilixane).
Originally Posted by curlymel
Yeah. I should have said all cones (except hard-to-remove) and all polyquats all all ionically charged ingredient would be removed with coco betaine.
Thanks!
I am trying to learn some from all of these ingredients threads... Tricky, but a bit fun in a way. I am looking at products in a totally different way now.
I think the trickiest part (or one of them) is to remember all of this when I stand in the store looking at stuff.


I said this in the Biolage Thread too: It feels like I get buildup from Boots. I am not sure though. I am trying to figure out my own hair still.

LauraBeth, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions. You rock!!
Laurabeth and/or SwirlyCurlyChemist, I have a question about how ACV and lemon-aid would work, in the general sense. Since citric acid and acetic acid are weak acids, that means they only dissociate partially in water, but they do dissociate a little... right? So how do the dissociated ions interact (do they?) with the water, the negatively charged hair, and the positively charged product?

Be kind if this is a stupid question.... I'm just an undergrad, and chemistry's only my minor. :P
Previously Joy4ever.
Changed because the "number in place of a word" thing was bugging my no-longer-14-year-old self.
I must confess that I don't see how they could possibly work at all and I don't use them.
A non-technical answer here, but...Vinegar is often suggested for removing mineral deposits from shower heads, etc. I've used it myself and it definitely works. The white deposits are mostly calcium and magnesium, right? I'm not sure in what form, but apparently something that acetic acid reacts with.

So I'm guessing that the idea behind the ACV or lemon rinses removing buildup would be an extension of this same thinking. Whether that's valid or not, I can't say.
A non-technical answer here, but...Vinegar is often suggested for removing mineral deposits from shower heads, etc. I've used it myself and it definitely works. The white deposits are mostly calcium and magnesium, right? I'm not sure in what form, but apparently something that acetic acid reacts with.

So I'm guessing that the idea behind the ACV or lemon rinses removing buildup would be an extension of this same thinking. Whether that's valid or not, I can't say.
Originally Posted by SuZen

I tried to remove hard water buildup from a shower head (I think that is what it is called) two days ago and it actually worked. It had to sit in nondiluted ACV for a while though. But it worked.

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