Cones, polyquats, ions, and removal of buildup - Page 3

SuZen · 02-09-2005, 05:41 AM

Oh, it does work. You can either take off the shower head and plop it in a bowl of vinegar, or you can tie a plastic bag full of vinegar over the shower head without taking it off. White vinegar works fine for this, it's cheaper than ACV, but if all you have on hand is ACV, that works too.

JerseyCurl · 03-09-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurabeth33

My knowledge of removing hard water minerals is limited to EDTAs as a means.

I don't think ACV or lemon-aid would remove hard water minerals or chlorine, just buildup from natural stuff (dirt, serebrum (sp?), etc) and product accumulation.

CurliLocks, I can't see what would remove hard water minerals from that formula, but someone else might know.

Down here in Florida, we have super hard water and before we got a water softener I used the Robert Craig poo for hard water and it removed all the hard water buildup. Before I used the poo my hair was a rats nest and everytime, no fail, after I pooed with the RC extra hard water poo the it would detangle with almost no effort and the curls would spring back to life. I did acv rinses a few times and that too helped as well. The only thing that got my hair through that time was the RC poo and the acv rinses.

BaByCurLSSSS · 05-06-2005, 08:01 AM

Okay, so I am bringing this thread back up because I am trying hard to wrap my brain around these scientific concepts & I am getting a little confused .... maybe I am thinking too hard, lol! Please let me know if I have this straight:

So, the basic message is that cones, polyquats & ionically charged ingreds can definitely be removed by using a coco betaine poo. For 'hard to remove' cones, they must be removed with a SLS poo.

Also, Creme of Nature poo is not going to remove any type of build up (products or hard water) because it contains decyl polyglucose as a cleanser. This will only remove dirt & excess oil in hair & scalp.

Is this correct?

And I am still not sure what ionically charged ingreds are? Can someone give me another reference or explain again to me what these are?

TIA!

laurabeth33 · 05-06-2005, 08:12 AM

BaByCurLSSSS, decyl polyglucose can remove what conditioner-washing does, just to a little more umph than conditioner-washing. Some curlies who have a little more oil production or similar personal preferences/traits prefer decyl polyglucose to conditioner-washing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaByCurLSSSS

So, the basic message is that cones, polyquats & ionically charged ingreds can definitely be removed by using a coco betaine poo. For 'hard to remove' cones, they must be removed with a SLS poo.

Yes. This article is helpful:

http://naturallycurly2.com/curlscene...ytype=articles

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaByCurLSSSS

And I am still not sure what ionically charged ingreds are? Can someone give me another reference or explain again to me what these are?

This is a tricky question. Polyquats are one kind of ionically charged ingred. Some company's philosophy is to use such ingreds (like ISO).

http://www.isohair.ca/english/classic/ (click on technology link)

BaByCurLSSSS · 05-06-2005, 03:59 PM

Thanks laurabeth! I'll check out the links you posted.

Kurlee · 11-28-2005, 01:54 PM

*bump*

reptilegrrl · 11-28-2005, 07:28 PM

I have a question; I think I have this one figured out but I just want to make sure I am interpreting this correctly.

In my favorite hair wax (Beyond the Zone Air Wax) this ingredient is listed: "Dimethicone Bisamino Hydroxypropyl Copolyol."

Now, because Dimethicone Copolyols are water soluble, and because hydrolyzed things are water soluble, I am guessing this is water soluble and thus no-poo-friendly. Am I interpreting this correctly?

The only other ingredient I worry about is "microcrystalline wax," but I am thinking that with regular cowashes and occasional vinegar rinses this and the beeswax should be easily removed. Correct?

Thanks so much for posts like this; they are really helpful to those of us going no-poo and figuring this stuff out as we go along. I am not opposed to cones, but since I am going shampoo-free I want to use only water-soluble ones for now.

Kurlee · 11-28-2005, 09:01 PM

That silicone should be water soluble, but I wonder if conditioner washes and vinager rises actually remove wax (beeswax and others) very well. It is supposed to be harder to remove wax. Hmm..

laurabeth33 · 11-28-2005, 10:07 PM

A while back, a curly was interested in a product with microcrystalline wax, and swirlycurlychemist said it was very hard to remove even with a regular shampoo. I'd suggest proceeding with caution.

lazy loops · 11-28-2005, 10:15 PM

I think that was me & the product was ISO gel cream. I didn't use it & can't remember who I gave it to.

Probably a straightie friend who shampoos everyday.

reptilegrrl · 11-28-2005, 11:47 PM

Oh, bummer! Back to the drawing board. But thanks for the information.

banjocurl · 07-16-2006, 08:52 PM

revisiting this topic....

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurabeth33

I've been getting a deluge of PMs about cones and buildup, so I thought I'd share this in a central place.

Water-insoluble means water doesn't dissolve it, but negative-charge ions can remove it.

Water-soluble means water dissolves it.

Soluble means soluble in the bottle.

Dispersible and dilutable in water are generally used to reflect that they are soluble in the solution in the bottle and water breaks down the bond (ex. OneCondition has amodimethicone which is soluble in the bottle but become dispersible in water once on the hair which means the amodimethicone breaks apart from the solvents and is dispersed and deposited on the hair because the water carries it there.)

Many water insoluble cones like amodimethicones (and the other really common one is phenyl trimethicione that's in PM the Cream and Aveda Be Curly) can be removed by sulfates or cocomidopropyl betaine. I know that there needs to be some ionic charge to remove these cones--whether via a gentle or harsher surfactant. Other ionic-charged surfactants (whether with a negative-only charge or a negative-positive combo) would be effective under the same logic. And ionic-charged surfactants also remove polyquats which are positively charged.

Laurab--just wondering--ii use devacurl oneC and am completely CG--i never use shampoo except every 5-6 weeks pre color. it does not seem to build up on me despite the amodimethicone--it is fairly far down on the ingredient list-my hair is generally fairly porous--robt craig color comes out very dark on me. so could i be having buildup and not know it?

laurabeth33 · 07-17-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by banjocurl

revisiting this topic....
Laurab--just wondering--i use devacurl oneC and am completely CG--i never use shampoo except every 5-6 weeks pre color. it does not seem to build up on me despite the amodimethicone--it is fairly far down on the ingredient list-my hair is generally fairly porous--robt craig color comes out very dark on me. so could i be having buildup and not know it?

I don't think so. Amodimethicone's particle size is fairly large so it shouldn't penetrate. I would say that as long as your hair isn't behaving as if it's experiencing buildup, then your hair is handling it well. In contrast, GF conditioners have a lot of amodimethicone, and I noticed buildup with them because the amodimethicone deposits were too concentrated for the amount that could be easily removed.

Fuzzbuster · 07-18-2006, 08:46 PM

OMG...all this knowledge is admirable....

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but I'm new to this all natural curly hair scene. Just wanted to know, does this info regarding cones apply to ALL cultures of hair, regardless of ethnicity, etc.?

If so, I know that I have product build-up galore! And I think thats part of why I have brittle, dry & coarse hair. It feels somewhat "waxy" when wet & I believe thats "build-up", or how does one recognize "build-up"? No matter how careful I am w/ingredients & products, it also drys to a "crisp". I have great curl definition, just air-drys hard as heck.
I want wash 'n go hair, but instead I have to apply additional maintenance products to soften it up. This has been my only disappointment in going all natural.

I am wanting to do the co-wash/no poo, but I need to rid build-up. I have a water-softener to aid in this process. However, has anyone compiled lists of products that are recommended to remove build-up's, or will the "Robert Craig'" poo, or the "Aveda" product that was mentioned previously do the trick for all build-up, regardless of the causes that led to the build-up? I feel so dumb-founded right now. But I've down several ACV rinses & still have the same problems. I tried "Allexperts.com" but they mostly focus on issues relating to balding. Please advice & thanks in advance.

Fuzzbuster · 07-18-2006, 10:13 PM

Oh and since I've ventured out this far in my stupidity, I would just like to ask if it's possible that some of this build-up that we're referring to has any correlation to what we call "scab hair" or "scalp plaque"; is that actually just heavy build-up?

Spider · 07-19-2006, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurabeth33

My knowledge of removing hard water minerals is limited to EDTAs as a means.

I don't think ACV or lemon-aid would remove hard water minerals or chlorine, just buildup from natural stuff (dirt, serebrum (sp?), etc) and product accumulation.

CurliLocks, I can't see what would remove hard water minerals from that formula, but someone else might know.

ACV should remove build up. I don't use it on my hair, but I have a stainless/black fridge and the black plastic tray in the ice/water dispenser starts to get the white/calcuim buildup from water after a while. I just pour a capfull or two of ACV into the tray let it s, blot it up, and the buildup is gone.

Kurlee · 07-31-2006, 04:39 PM

*bumping*

SmallFry · 08-08-2006, 04:12 AM

bump

SmallFry · 08-15-2006, 11:31 AM

bump

SmallFry · 08-22-2006, 03:47 PM

Aren't you guys glad I bumped this last week!!