Cones, polyquats, ions, and removal of buildup

I've been getting a deluge of PMs about cones and buildup, so I thought I'd share this in a central place.

Water-insoluble means water doesn't dissolve it, but negative-charge ions can remove it.
Water-soluble means water dissolves it.
Soluble means soluble in the bottle.
Dispersible and dilutable in water are generally used to reflect that they are soluble in the solution in the bottle and water breaks down the bond (ex. OneCondition has amodimethicone which is soluble in the bottle but become dispersible in water once on the hair which means the amodimethicone breaks apart from the solvents and is dispersed and deposited on the hair because the water carries it there.)

Many water insoluble cones like amodimethicones (and the other really common one is phenyl trimethicione that's in PM the Cream and Aveda Be Curly) can be removed by sulfates or cocomidopropyl betaine. I know that there needs to be some ionic charge to remove these cones--whether via a gentle or harsher surfactant. Other ionic-charged surfactants (whether with a negative-only charge or a negative-positive combo) would be effective under the same logic. And ionic-charged surfactants also remove polyquats which are positively charged.

A note worth making: some product lines are positively charging just about anything these days. For example, go to http://www.isohair.ca/english/classic/index.html and click on technology (it's flash-driven so I can't link to the specific page).

ISO writes, "The nutrient filled Tri-Active Technology takes vitamins, proteins and moisturizers and positively charges them to work more effectively by penetrating far more deeply into the hair shaft.

Opposites attract. In its natural state, hair carries a negative charge. The more severely hair is damaged, the more negative it becomes. ISO's Tri-Active Technology, with its positively activated proteins, vitamins and moisturizers, works on multiple levels of the hair's structure, delivering the best care directly where it is needed most, and naturally bonds there for longer-lasting results."

While this is a positive and admirable concept for getting hair-happy ingredients to penetrate deeper, the result of "longer-lasting results" is frequently buildup since your hair isn't alive to absorb all these positively-charged ingredients.

Nonionic surfactants, such as sorbitol, decyl glucoside, laureths, and decyl polyglucose, which contain no positively or negatively-charged groups do not remove cones. They do not have any way to attract the cones away from being attached to the hair shaft. They are effective cleansers for natural stuff (like dirt, dead skin cells on your scalp, etc).

WATER SOLUBLE
Dimethicone copolyol
PEG/PPG silicones (the PEG/PPG process does this)
Lauryl methicone copolyol
Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein Hydroxypropyl Polysiloxane (or any other cone in the easily removed list that is chemically combined in a Hydrolyzed process--that's the key)

EASILY REMOVED BY IONIC SURFACTANT BECAUSE THEY BOND WITH A LIGHTER IONIC BOND
Amodimethicone (soluble in the bottle with Trideceth-12 (and) Cetrimonium Chloride but makes NO DIFFERENCE on the hair relative to solubility, just better distribution on the hair because the amodimethicone will be better dispursed in the product's solution, still easier to remove)
Dimethicone
Dimethiconol
Behenoxy Dimethicone
Phenyl Trimethicone

BORDERLINE--NOT SUPER-EASY or SUPER-HARD TO REMOVE, CAN USE IONIC SURFACTANT OTHER THAN SULFATE WITH SCRUBBING MOTION AND LEAVING SURFACTANT ON HAIR FOR FEW MINUTES TO REMOVE
Simethicone
Trimethicone (not common without the Phenyl that makes it easier to remove)

HARDER TO REMOVE, TAKES HARSHER SURFACTANT LIKE SULFATE BECAUSE THEY BOND WITH A STRONGER IONIC BOND
Cyclomethicone
Cyclopentasiloxane
Trimethylsilylamodimethicone/Trimethylsiloxysilicates

Also, keep in mind the purpose of your sources when researching cones. The GE website is telling about products' solubility in a product so product companies will buy them, and they are not necessarily for use on the hair. Their endless possibilities are mindnumbing. And if you combine a water insoluble cone with another water insoluble cone, it's water insoluble. In addition,GE and other marketing-based websites are giving data for material safety datasheets, not for how these products would be removed from hair, because it's about stability in the bottle, not solubility once it's used.

Finally, the porousity of your hair can make a product and its ingredients more difficult to remove or a lack of porousity can make even a cyclo-cone easier to remove than most. Everyone's hair is different! So one person may have a horrible time with even easier to remove cones. Another person may be able to use cyclopentasiloxane and get the frizz-taming results that the cone was designed for (a note: most straighties are loving this stuff).

Therefore, the relative easy of removal for cones is just that--relative. I can state that x cone is harder to remove than y. How much harder depends on the individual, his/her product choices, and climate (where it's super-humid and hot, ingredients seem to take advantage and be able to penetrate further into the hair shaft, even on the same head of hair).
Nonionic surfactants, such as sorbitol, decyl glucoside, laureths, and decyl polyglucose, which contain no positively or negatively-charged groups do not remove cones. They do not have any way to attract the cones away from being attached to the hair shaft. They are effective cleansers for natural stuff (like dirt, dead skin cells on your scalp, etc).
Originally Posted by laurabeth33
Excellent post, Laurabeth.

I just wanted to clarify or expound upon the information contained in the quote above.

Most silicones are not ionic at all, and they are attracted to the hair due to their overall hydrophobicity (water-hating) tendencies. Surfactants, by nature, all have a hydrophobic portion, and like attracts like. Therefore even non-ionic surfactants can and will attract oils (which are hydrophobic) away from the hair. This is how they are meant to work and how they do indeed work. This is the basis for oil-in-water detergency, where oils are emulsified by being absorbed into the center of a micelle, which is solvated in water by the surrounding shell of hydrophilic head groups. (The hydrophobic effect, micelle theory, and all of that is a part of colloid chemistry, which is based upon some very fundamental principles of thermodynamics, which maybe we should go over some time for everyone.)

The limitation upon many commonly used nonionic surfactants is that they have a larger hydrophilic (water-loving) head group. These bulky head groups are repelled from one another due to a phenomenon known as "steric hindrance" (basically - things all need to occupy their own space, and the larger things are - the more space they need). This impacts the geometry of the micelle that is formed, making it less able to hold as much oil in the interior (one can do more research on this by looking up "the priniciple of opposing forces"). For this reason, these surfactants are less efficient. They can have a similar effectiveness as ionic surfactants, but that would require them being used in larger quantities. Most often, the two types are mixed in formulations, because together they enhance one another's capabilities in micelle formation and detergency.

So in summary, the ability of a surfactant to remove hydrophobic materials from our hair is more closely correlated to the size of its polar head group than to the nature of its ionic charge.

I wish I had a chalk board here, because I feel that colloid and surace science are so much easier to teach when I can draw pictures.
I'm visual too!

Thanks so much for that information! Wow!

Maybe you can use a graphics program to make a few mockups of your chalkboard pictures, and Michelle and Gretchen might load them on their server for you to link your thread to. That's how I posted all those color-coded tables of ingredients.
Wow, great!! Thank you!

(ex. OneCondition has amodimethicone which is soluble in the bottle but become dispersible in water once on the hair which means the amodimethicone breaks apart from the solvents and is dispersed and deposited on the hair because the water carries it there.)



Why you always dissin' on the DevaCurl????






Totally kidding
2C/3A auburn hair.
between shoulders and BSL
you women are freaking geniuses.... thanks! you've definitely confirmed that it's complicated. So.... I'm thinking I'm just not going to use cones at all if I don't shampoo and if I do use cones I'll shampoo periodically. Sorry, I'm a simple kind of girl.
3B - 3C - using CG routine as of 1/3/04
you women are freaking geniuses.... thanks! you've definitely confirmed that it's complicated. So.... I'm thinking I'm just not going to use cones at all if I don't shampoo and if I do use cones I'll shampoo periodically. Sorry, I'm a simple kind of girl.
Originally Posted by CYNCURL
Sounds like a smart move. I like simple too.

Why you always dissin' on the DevaCurl????

Totally kidding
Originally Posted by miacurl
Actually, I'm pointing out the logic behind DevaCurl's ingredient design. And so many people seem to be so worked up about the amodimethicone in OneCondition. This stuff is complex, so I understand the concern, and there are those whose hair hates all cones. But I note that product line because there are many fans at risk of giving it up for misinformation.

Also, it makes this thread come up if someone does a search on it.

Dissin' ... not really. Showing strategy, more so.
Thanks Laurabeth! This is most excellent!
will a coco. betaine cleanser get rid of hard water buildup? and will using a coco. betaine cleanser once a week eliminate the need for ACV's if i don't use any hard-core cones? (i use no poo, one condish, angell, jessicurl anything, boots, abba weightless, re:coil, and i think i have hard water)
Faith, 3Aish redhead
Mama to two wild superheroes and a curly-headed baby boy
Only an EDTA will remove hard water.

Most products that have EDTA have just enough to make the product behave as if it were being used in softer water. Only clarifying poos seem to have enough EDTA to remove hard water minerals or chlorine. Usually, the bottle will advertise this as well.

Swirlycurly Chemist, do you know of any other ways to remove hard water minerals or chlorine?
so does ACV do it? or would lemon-aid (lemon juice mixed with conditioner) do it?
Faith, 3Aish redhead
Mama to two wild superheroes and a curly-headed baby boy
Only an EDTA will remove hard water.

Most products that have EDTA have just enough to make the product behave as if it were being used in softer water. Only clarifying poos seem to have enough EDTA to remove hard water minerals or chlorine. Usually, the bottle will advertise this as well.

Swirlycurly Chemist, do you know of any other ways to remove hard water minerals or chlorine?
Originally Posted by laurabeth33
I'm confused. Robert Craig's Shampoo for Extremely Hard Water lists these ingredients, no EDTA:

INGREDIENTS: Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamide DEA, Panthenol, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Extract, Geranium Macalatum Extract, Juniperus Communis Fruit Extract, Mentha Piperita (peppermint) Leaf Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract, Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract, Propylene Glycol, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Polyquaternium - 11, Citric Acid, Methylchoroisothiazolinone and Methylisothiazolinone, fragrance, Yellow 5.

I don't really know if his shampoo "removes" hard water (you can't really remove the water though) but it is formulated to work with hard water so your hair is cleaned, not stripped, but isn't affected by the hardness of the water. I've used it before (water's not so hard now with a filter) and it works great. But no EDTA. ????

SF Bay Area, CA * "The Angel-Goddess-Guru of Haircoloring"
3b/c/a mix. medium texture, low porosity
* pw: just4curlies
* My Motto: Strand Test!
some hair pics
-- gone, but never forgotten.
My knowledge of removing hard water minerals is limited to EDTAs as a means.

I don't think ACV or lemon-aid would remove hard water minerals or chlorine, just buildup from natural stuff (dirt, serebrum (sp?), etc) and product accumulation.

CurliLocks, I can't see what would remove hard water minerals from that formula, but someone else might know.
Swirlycurly Chemist, you should do presentations in high school! I would have paid way more attention in chemistry if I'd known how much it would mean to my HAIR, hee.

Laurabeth:

Actually, I'm pointing out the logic behind DevaCurl's ingredient design. And so many people seem to be so worked up about the amodimethicone in OneCondition.
I guess I'm still confused by what that logic is. From what I thought I'd gathered, the amodimethicone in One Condition can be removed by the gentler shampoos, but it still can't be removed by No Poo or conditioner. Lorraine Massey recommends washing with No Poo or Conditioner, then comes out with this single conditioner—and pops up in an interview to say (stretching my credulity in any case, but let that pass) that NO other products on the market meet her standards for recommending them to curly-heads—that will build up unless you use another brand of cleanser.

On the other hand, I guess a lot of people seem to be using the line successfully. But One Condition sure doesn't work for me without shampoo.
CookieMonster, the Low Poo is designed with coco betaine in it to remove amodimethicone.

Most of the curlies who have gone to Devachan have been told to use the Low Poo ever so often (differs by stylist and client) as a refresher poo. Basically, that's for clarification purposes to remove the amodimethicone.

You don't have to use another brand of cleanser, just another one in her line.
What are some recommended poos for removing hard water/mineral build up?
Type 3a/3b, fine/medium hair, modified CG since 12/2003, Using CHS Curl Keeper, Bioterra gel, Ojon, Elucence
http://public.fotki.com/curlymel/ Password: curls[U][COLOR=#fe840d]
Laurabeth -
Thank you! That is just the info I've been looking for!!
Especially the part about the Low-poo
(and I thought I'd followed people like Juliehoosier when they gave Devasalon feedback, but I missed that!)

I really feel like I need SOMETHING to get even the "CG friendly" gels and One Cond out of my hair once in a while, even though the No-poo gets my scalp clean just great. (And of course being a product-junkie, there's unCG stuff in my hair sometimes, too.)

And no SIL-LY cones for me at all!

As for the Hard Water - I have a water softener, but still get build up on my hair and faucets, eventually. The straight AVC gets the deposits off of the faucets, so isn't it working on my hair when diluted??

I'm really curious about this!!
Are there any poos/products which will remove minerals without trashing our hair?

Thanks!
Karen
CG since 7/04 2a/3a Carlos:"Strong wavy"
Fine brunette Cut to shoulder length from past bsl - love it shorter = curlier!
Spirals in summer Wavy S's in winter
MOP c-system hydrating poo & moisture complex
My fav has continued to be Aveda Detoxifier. Elucence's clarifying poo wasn't bad, but Aveda's is more gentle-feeling afterward.
Is the Aveda detoxifier a Shampoo or a gooey gel?

I could swear Aveda used to make a really cool, clear gooey gel which used to get out everything, but when I went looking for it last spring, nobody in the Aveda store had worked there long enough to know.

Has anyone used the Nexxus Aloe rid either one or both parts, with any success?
CG since 7/04 2a/3a Carlos:"Strong wavy"
Fine brunette Cut to shoulder length from past bsl - love it shorter = curlier!
Spirals in summer Wavy S's in winter
MOP c-system hydrating poo & moisture complex

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