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Old 11-26-2008, 06:25 PM   #1
 
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Default Symptoms of over-conditioned, when you need protein and protein sensitivity

Hi,

these day I am experiencing hair softness, no breakage but it's dry and brittle at the ends. I have a flaky scalp (from winter). My hair is a 4a/b, very fine and fragile strands (cause of hair breakage sometimes, I have to be very careful). I think I might have naturally dry hair too.

I clarified with suave clarifying shampoo but my hair stays the same.

my routine: sulfate free shampoo, Jessicurls too shea conditioner, and a hair butter. But no water-based leave in.

I think I might need to add a water based leave-in like alba botanica leave-in then apply my hair butter. What do you think? I also think maybe I need a light vegetable protein conditioner.

I would like to try these conditioners what do you think of the ingredients:

with protein :Irish spring water, cetearyl alcohol, hydroxypropyltrimonium honey, butyrospermum parkii (shea fruit) butter, olea europea seed oil (and) hydrogenated olive oil (olive butter), rucinus communis (castor) oil, prunus amygdalus dulcis (sweet almond) oil, cocos nuciferas (coconut) oil, stearic acid (plant derived), cetearyl olivate (and) sorbitan olivate, hydrolyzed jojoba protein, hydrolyzed wheat protein (and) hydrolyzed wheat starch, hydrolyzed oats, hydrolyzed silk amino acids, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium honey, phenoxyethanol (and) caprylyl glycol, organic natural fragrance/ standard fragrance.

without protein:Ingredients- Irish spring water, behetrimonium methosulphate (and) cetearyl alcohol, persia gratissima (unrefined avocado) oil, organic pure honey, ricinus communis (castor) oil, prunus amygdalus dulcis (sweet almond) oil,soy lecithin (Non-GMO) stearic acid (plant derived), vanilla powder, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, phenoxyethanol and caprylyl glycol.

So, anybody knows what are the symptoms :

When you are overconditioned?

When you need a protein treatment (list any good natural products for this)?

When you are preotein sensitive?

When your hair is dry from the winter season?

Or when you simply have naturally dry hair?


Thanks,
zoyia
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Old 11-29-2008, 11:01 AM   #2
 
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Bump!
This is a very good question, Im always confusing the simptomps, so Im very interested in knowing the answer
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Old 11-29-2008, 07:42 PM   #3
 
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I can tell you that if your hair looks dry and straw-like, but feels very soft, that is a sign of being overconditioned. If it looks dry and straw-like and also feels that way, that could be a sign of protein sensitivity.
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Old 11-30-2008, 10:19 AM   #4
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when I use too much of a lightweight conditioner in my hair then it looks extra fluffy, so for me overconditioned = too fluffy

my hair is protein-sensitive and feels rough & coarse when I use something with protein. Depending on the product this could happen after just one use or after a week or two of repeated use.

I looked at your ingredients - isn't soy lecithin a protein? (in the "without protein" ingredient list)

Dry hair and protein-coated hair feel very similar to me. If I skip washing it for another day and it feels better, then it was probably dry and the natural oil from my scalp helped it become less dry. If skipping a washing day doesn't help it feel better, but washing with something protein-free helps, then it was probably protein.
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Old 02-26-2009, 02:20 PM   #5
 
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*bump*

really good question, I'd love to hear more responses!!
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:25 PM   #6
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I'm really curious to hear what "needs protein" feels like. I haven't used any products with protein in more than 6 months...
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:18 PM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by tmmy_cat View Post
I'm really curious to hear what "needs protein" feels like. I haven't used any products with protein in more than 6 months...
How's your hair been? What hair type are you? I think I might be protein sensitive, so I'm experimenting with no protein this week and next. My hair has been awesome, so that may be the case. Today has been my first iffy hair day after starting this on Sunday, but I may have also over-conditioned a bit.
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Old 02-27-2009, 04:28 AM   #8
 
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I've found as few times that when I've used some deep conditioning treatment my hair has felt like straw and squeaky at the ends, plus has been a nightmare to comb. When i wash and condition normally this doesn't happen, Is that protein sensitive?
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LisaF1163 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmmy_cat View Post
I'm really curious to hear what "needs protein" feels like. I haven't used any products with protein in more than 6 months...
How's your hair been? What hair type are you? I think I might be protein sensitive, so I'm experimenting with no protein this week and next. My hair has been awesome, so that may be the case. Today has been my first iffy hair day after starting this on Sunday, but I may have also over-conditioned a bit.
My hair actually seems OK without protein but I don't really know what to look for...
Usually when I use protein it starts to feel coarse and crunchy instead of smooth and soft, so I've just been avoiding protein completely. I'm not sure if I will run into any issues with that strategy eventually ... I wonder if my hair will eventually start to want a little bit of protein and if so what would the symptoms be.
I'm not sure about my hair type but it is wavy, thick, and porous. maybe 2b or 2c.
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Old 02-27-2009, 08:57 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by tmmy_cat View Post
My hair actually seems OK without protein but I don't really know what to look for...
Usually when I use protein it starts to feel coarse and crunchy instead of smooth and soft, so I've just been avoiding protein completely. I'm not sure if I will run into any issues with that strategy eventually ... I wonder if my hair will eventually start to want a little bit of protein and if so what would the symptoms be.
I'm not sure about my hair type but it is wavy, thick, and porous. maybe 2b or 2c.
That's partly my issue too - that I don't know what to look for. Normally if something works for me, it works for me for a few days, then I wind up with the same issues again. It's been humid here the past couple of days - more like a cold dampness, so I'm sure that's affecting things, and the past two days haven't been good hair days. I've been cutting out protein, which has been working at first (haven't gotten rid of my protein conditioners yet just in case), possibly cutting down on mag sulfate. I'm just not sure yet on what the combos are that I need. I'm also waiting for my order of KCCC, and I ordered some of BB's FSG today too, so maybe those will get me on the right track. Tomorrow's my day to do a ACV, and that usually helps - could just be build up over the week, but I co-wash every other day. It gets so confusing sometimes when you have great hair all week except for the last couple of days.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:13 PM   #11
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmmy_cat View Post
I'm really curious to hear what "needs protein" feels like. I haven't used any products with protein in more than 6 months...
I'm a protein sensitive curly who went protein free for about 9 months. When I started thinking about adding it bgack in, it was because I thought I was overconditioned, and in a sense I was over moisturized and under-protein. My moisture/protein balance was off.

When I need protein, my roots curls get more limp than normal. Some have said that they notice more limp curls in general that cannot be explained by anything else. I also so a stretch test. When my hair gets too stretchy, I know I need protein. Some have said that their hair feels mushy or gummy when it needs protein. If your hair gets more tangly than normal, it might be a good idea to do a stretch test and see if you need some protein.

In the summer, I was taking a hot of protein every 1-2 weeks. Now it's every 2-4 weeks.
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:25 PM   #12
 
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ok, dumb question alert! (warning! warning!)

In order to tell whether your hair feels soft/fluffy or dry/strawlike/crunchy, you would need to feel it without any product in it, right?

I find that the "feel" of styling products just complicates things. I never know if I'm feeling my actual hair or if I'm feeling styling product. Of course, some days the same products will feel different, so perhaps that's indicative of an underlying difference in the hair, but still....

How do you guys handle this? Because I never -- ever -- ever allow myself to go without styling product. I don't even want to see myself in the mirror without it. Never. As in ever.

And did I say, never?
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Old 02-27-2009, 10:33 PM   #13
 
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I can't speak for the soft/fluffy side of the house.

But, as for crunchy straw, it was noticeable even with prouct in. No product could get rid of the straw crunch that I could get, and I could feel that dryness even when my hair was wet.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:10 PM   #14
 
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I can't speak for the soft/fluffy side of the house.

But, as for crunchy straw, it was noticeable even with prouct in. No product could get rid of the straw crunch that I could get, and I could feel that dryness even when my hair was wet.
yes I agree - I noticed a protein issue with my hair when I was rinsing out my conditioner and it felt similar to rinsing out a sulfate shampoo. Nasty dry and just not silky smooth. You'll definitely know.
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:45 AM   #15
 
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Another one in agreement here -- it seems like no matter how much conditioner I load on, when I'm rinsing it out, it still feels stiff and dry and that normal silky feeling is gone.
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Old 02-28-2009, 12:21 PM   #16
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hmm, my waves are pretty limp lately so I wonder if that means I need more protein. or maybe the limp waves are just a function of my drying methods. brushing it with a paddle brush (yeah, gasp) while I blow-dry it on the warm or cool setting. scrunching then air drying gives me nice waves but it takes so long and I'm lazy on weekday mornings.

what do the stretch test result indicate again? I remember how to do it but not what it means. If I get a thick hair then I can get it to stretch over and over again and it bounces back to its original length - and I can't get it to break, it's more likely to slip off my fingers first. If I get a fine hair then it stretches and bounces back but breaks if I try it more than a few times.
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Old 03-01-2009, 08:04 AM   #17
 
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what do the stretch test result indicate again? I remember how to do it but not what it means. If I get a thick hair then I can get it to stretch over and over again and it bounces back to its original length - and I can't get it to break, it's more likely to slip off my fingers first. If I get a fine hair then it stretches and bounces back but breaks if I try it more than a few times.
If you follow RCC"S link earlier in this thread, it explains it. (It sounds like you might not need protein unless your hair is stretching really far, because your hair is springing back to original length).

I'm not sure if it means anything if it breaks after you've stretched it a couple of times. It could just be that once it's been stretched once, it's weakened (rather than meaning you need more moisture, which is what it would mean if it broke the first time).

But maybe somebody else will chime in -- I'm interested because mine does that too.
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Old 03-01-2009, 09:22 AM   #18
 
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I'd only stretch each individual hair once or twice. Think of a rubber band. If you keep stretching it over and over, it has to break at some point, or just become overstrethched.
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Old 04-03-2009, 01:31 PM   #19
 
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I looked at your ingredients - isn't soy lecithin a protein?
Soy lecithin is not the same as soy protein. Lecithin is a natural emulsifying wax (mixes the fatty part of a product w/ the watery part) purified out of unrefined soy oil. It is not from the protein part of the bean.
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Old 04-03-2009, 02:49 PM   #20
 
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I would like to try these conditioners what do you think of the ingredients:

with protein :Irish spring water, cetearyl alcohol, hydroxypropyltrimonium honey, butyrospermum parkii (shea fruit) butter, olea europea seed oil (and) hydrogenated olive oil (olive butter), rucinus communis (castor) oil, prunus amygdalus dulcis (sweet almond) oil, cocos nuciferas (coconut) oil, stearic acid (plant derived), cetearyl olivate (and) sorbitan olivate, hydrolyzed jojoba protein, hydrolyzed wheat protein (and) hydrolyzed wheat starch, hydrolyzed oats, hydrolyzed silk amino acids, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium honey, phenoxyethanol (and) caprylyl glycol, organic natural fragrance/ standard fragrance.

without protein:Ingredients- Irish spring water, behetrimonium methosulphate (and) cetearyl alcohol, persia gratissima (unrefined avocado) oil, organic pure honey, ricinus communis (castor) oil, prunus amygdalus dulcis (sweet almond) oil,soy lecithin (Non-GMO) stearic acid (plant derived), vanilla powder, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, phenoxyethanol and caprylyl glycol.

So, anybody knows what are the symptoms :

When you are overconditioned?
Moisturizing fats are so confusing. I always think of them as two different types--the sorts that lay on the outside of the hair and add shine and smoothness, and the kinds that are absorbed into the hair to add flexibility and softness. Examples of the first are castor oil, coconut oil, and jojoba oil. If you overdo these your hair will be greasy and seal out moisture, making it a little stiff--definitely not "fluffy". A good example of the second is meadowfoam seed oil, and most other polyunsaturated oils like safflower. Too much of these could make your hair feel overly soft, or gummy. I think shea butter and olive oil do some of both, penetrate to some extent, but parts of them coat the hairs a little.

Then, to confuse matters more, there is glycerin which has an oily, coating quality to it, but also is a humectant, drawing moisture from the air into the hairshaft, unless the air is very dry. Other humectants, like honey and other sugary things, collagen, and PCA, aren't fatty or oily at all. Humectants also soften hair that's been bleached, etc., and encourage curl. On my hair they tend to encourage frizz, but my hair is very porous and doesn't need any help getting moisture from the shower or the air. If anything, it gets waterlogged and takes forever to dry. Some people use a conditioner with humectants to hold a little moisture from wet hair in the hair, and then add a butter to seal a little and prevent frizz.

So different kinds of hair problems need different kinds of moisturizing.

And I haven't even mentioned the 'oniums and other waxy coating agents that make up the bulk of drugstore and many other conditioners. They reduce static, help detangle, and give hair a soft, smooth feel, but can dull and seal out moisture if overdone. Even sulfate shampoos don't remove these, so they tend to build up over time. Shampoos that have an ingredient with the word "decyl" in it, do a better job of removal. You can find this mostly in baby shampoos, and occasionally in high end no-sulfate shampoos. Surprisingly these detergents are quite gentle to the hair.
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