Amodimethicone becomes water-soluble when accompanied with these ingredients

I found out that the CurlChemist article on silicones is not the full scoop. Although, albeit it's very informative, there are more things I'd like to add that I think you curlies will greatly appreciate . On the bottom of the CurlChemist article titled What’s the Scoop on Silicones?, there is a link to a Brazilian article which I clicked on a couple weeks ago that included a more extensive list on silicones that are water-soluble or water-insoluble. Luckily, I am of Afro-Brazilian descent and was born in southeastern Brazil, but relocated to the Greater Boston area here in the states as little as two years of age. I was educated in a trilingual elementary school here in the Greater Boston area from an early age to be fluent in English and Portuguese, so I was able to read the article. You can find the link to this article under the What’s the Scoop on Silicones? article. If you think you need validation before you can take what I'm about to tell you seriously, then I'll just make it easier for you skeptics by adding the link HERE. I think you will be pleased to know that amodimethicone is water-soluble when accompanied by trideceth-12 and cetrimonium chloride in the same formula! This was my most pleasant discovery when reading this list! If this information is new to you, now your choices in products are less limited! Here's the list from the Brazilian article (I didn't need to translate much):


Silicones - Used to add shine and gloss to hair, decrease combing friction and tangling, provide conditioning, and act as humectants


Amodimethicone - water-insoluble when unaccompanied by Tricedeth-12 and Centrimonium Chloride

Amodimethicone and Trideceth-12 and Cetrimonium Chloride - water-soluble when these three ingredients are present within the same formula

Behenoxy Dimethicone Sparingly - water-soluble

Dimethicone Copolyol - water-soluble

Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein Hydroxypropyl Polysiloxane - water-soluble

Lauryl methicone copolyol - water-soluble



Cyclomethicone - water-insoluble, but rinses out with conditioner washing



Cetearyl methicone - water-insoluble

Cetyl Dimethicone - water-insoluble

Cyclopentasiloxane - water-insoluble

Dimethicone - water-insoluble

Dimethiconol - water-insoluble

Stearyl Dimethicone - water-insoluble

Trimethylsilylamodimethicone - water-insoluble

Phenyl Trimethicone - water-insoluble

Dimethylpolysiloxane - water-insoluble



All silicones listed below are water-soluble:


PEG-7 Amodimethicone

Dimethicone PEG-8 Phosphate

Ammonium Dimethicone PEG-7 Sulfate

Dimethicone PEG-8 Adipate,

Dimethicone PEG-8 Benzoate,

Dimethicone PEG-7 Phosphate,

Dimethicone PEG-10 Phosphate,

Dimethicone PEG/PPG-20/23 Benzoate,

Dimethicone PEG/PPG-7/4 Phosphate,

Dimethicone PEG/PPG-12/4 Phosphate,

PEG-3 Dimethicone,

PEG-7 Dimethicone,

PEG-8 Dimethicone,

PEG-9 Dimethicone,

PEG-10 Dimethicone,

PEG-12 Dimethicone,

PEG-14 Dimethicone,

PEG-17 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-3/10 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-4/12 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-6/11 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-8/14 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-14/4 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-15/15 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-16/2 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-17/18 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-18/18 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-19/19 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-20/6 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-20/15 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-20/20 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-20/23 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-20/29 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-22/23 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-22/24 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-23/6 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-25/25 Dimethicone,

PEG/PPG-27/27 Dimethicone




Prior to coming across this article, I had quit using my Kérastase Nutritive Elasto-Curl Leave-in Conditioner, because of the fact that it's formulated with amodimethicone, but since coming across this article, I took the liberty to reread the ingredient list of the leave-in, and I'm glad to say that I discovered that the amodimethicone in it is accompanied by trideceth-12 and cetrimonium chloride, therefore turning the amodimethicone water-soluble, so now I can resume using my leave-in again, YAY!


By the way, would anyone happen to know if cetrimonium chloride2-oleamido-1 is the same as cetrimonium chloride? Because I'm thinking of buying L'Oréal Professionnel Texture Expert Spirale Extrême Curl Defining Crème, which contains amodimethicone, trideceth-12, and cetrimonium chloride2-oleamido-1, but I'm not sure if it's water-soluble since the naming of the cetrimonium chloride is not exactly the same as appeared in this list. I'd greatly appreciate if anyone is able to help me out this.


I apologize if I bored and/or exhausted anyone with my excessive overwriting! With that aside, I hope you guys appreciated the list!

3a/3b
Unsure about density
Confused about porosity

Co-wash/condition: Alberto VO5 Moisture Milks

Leave-in: Giovanni Direct Leave-in Conditioner

Styling product: Clairol Herbal Essences Totally Twisted Curl-Boosting Mousse

Last edited by Marllon; 04-08-2009 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Rewording.
Yeah, I remember there was a debate about this maybe a year ago...at least several months back. You might want to do a search on that.
What was concluded...if I remember correctly...was that amodimethicone becomes water soluble with those two chemicals you included...but only when it's in the bottle...once applied to hair,it isn't water-soluble. That didn't really make a lot of sense to me, though.
I'm guessing the two chemicals makes it more water-soluble...much like PEG makes dimethicone more water-soluble. I think people have different experiences with what builds up in their hair...and they need to experiment for themselves.
I love to shampoo my hair (mostly with a non-sulfate shampoo, but I indulge once or twice a week with a sulfate), so I don't have problems with cones, generally. I just make sure I limit them to water-solubles, amodimethicone, cyclomethicone, phenyl trimethicone...but I can occasionally throw in a bad boy, like dimethicone, if I'm going to wash with a sulfate shampoo the next day.

There's an on-going discussion about whether cones like dimethicone can be washed out with a non-sulfate shampoo...I know this isn't what you're OP is about...but I somehow think they're related. At least in my own head...LOL.
I personally think build-up is so personal and individual. People need to find out for themselves and find a routine that works best for them...whether that's with/without sulfates, CO washing only, using certain kinds of cones, how often to wash, etc.
That's right, I said it! I wear scrunchies!!

I am a sulfate washing, cone slabbing, curly lovin' s.o.b. The CG police haven't caught me yet.


3a/3b
yeah water soluble ornot. good job on the research. the real scop on silicones is the untural look added to hair. it is unattractive.
Yeah, I remember there was a debate about this maybe a year ago...at least several months back. You might want to do a search on that.
What was concluded...if I remember correctly...was that amodimethicone becomes water soluble with those two chemicals you included...but only when it's in the bottle...once applied to hair,it isn't water-soluble. That didn't really make a lot of sense to me, though.
I'm guessing the two chemicals makes it more water-soluble...much like PEG makes dimethicone more water-soluble. I think people have different experiences with what builds up in their hair...and they need to experiment for themselves.
I love to shampoo my hair (mostly with a non-sulfate shampoo, but I indulge once or twice a week with a sulfate), so I don't have problems with cones, generally. I just make sure I limit them to water-solubles, amodimethicone, cyclomethicone, phenyl trimethicone...but I can occasionally throw in a bad boy, like dimethicone, if I'm going to wash with a sulfate shampoo the next day.

There's an on-going discussion about whether cones like dimethicone can be washed out with a non-sulfate shampoo...I know this isn't what you're OP is about...but I somehow think they're related. At least in my own head...LOL.
I personally think build-up is so personal and individual. People need to find out for themselves and find a routine that works best for them...whether that's with/without sulfates, CO washing only, using certain kinds of cones, how often to wash, etc.
Originally Posted by Boomygrrl
You're right, I feel stupid now . I just ran a search, and there has been already two threads on this, one from around a year and a half ago, and the more recent one in which you spoke of from almost nine months ago.

I apologize for getting anyone's hopes up if this thread excited you.

Here's the accurate chart from Sweetpeacurli's website on which silicones are truly water-soluble:





I'll admit, I too was discombobulated when you revealed that the mixture is only water-soluble in the bottle, but not on the hair. Like you, I didn't know what the hell that meant, until I began reading through that thread you spoke of, and I found this comment by Riot Crrl, which thorougly explained the chemistry and cleared my confusion on the matter:

It makes sense, I promise. It's water dispersable in the bottle. Where it is combined with the other ingredient, and water. When you pour it on a surface, such as hair, the water evaporates and the cone dries into a film. Now
it's not water soluble.

The other thing I'm given to understand about these cones (amine-functionalized which includes both amodimethicone and bis-aminopropyl dimethicone) is that they will only form an extremely thin layer and not build up. Once on the hair, they will then repel other amine-functionalized cones from being able to build up.

I don't think they do the same for non-amine-functionalized cones though, so if you are adding other cones then bets are off.
Originally Posted by Riot Crrl
3a/3b
Unsure about density
Confused about porosity

Co-wash/condition: Alberto VO5 Moisture Milks

Leave-in: Giovanni Direct Leave-in Conditioner

Styling product: Clairol Herbal Essences Totally Twisted Curl-Boosting Mousse
Hey everybody,
I was thinking about buying Naked Bodycare's volume weightless conditioner. However, it has this listed in the ingredients: Cetyl dimethicone copolyol (Cetyl PEG/PPG-10/1 dimethicone).

I did not add the paranetheses.

So according to the list above, cetyl dimethicone is water insoluable, but dimethicone copolyol is water soluable. What about the two combined? The bit in parentheses has the all important PEG, but I'm not sure so thought I would ask.

What are your thoughts?
... cetyl dimethicone is water insoluable, but dimethicone copolyol is water soluable. What about the two combined?
The non-water-soluble silicon stays non-water-soluble. The water-solubility doesn't transfer.
Peace,
Morgan

Baby Fine 3B, low porosity, normal density and elasticity
CGing since July 2008

Last edited by Morgan_Adcock; 02-02-2013 at 10:26 AM. Reason: to clarify what I was responding to by adding the quote
Hi Marllon,
I realize this is a seriously old post but just came across it today as I was searching for new suppliers for Amodimethicone. First I can clarify on the Cetrimonium Chloride issue you had in the paragraph at the bottom of your post. Many times I see this ingredient spelled Centrimonium along with many other ingredients that sellers/companies spell incorrectly by accident or to try and mislead people so they cannot find these ingredients online.
Your paragraph at the top says that Amodimethicone (and I will refer to PEG 7 Amodimethicone) is water soluble when used with Trideceth and Cetrimonium Chloride. Then in your list that follows it says Amodimethicone is water insoluble.
Actually, Amodimethicone is water soluble without either of those two ingredients listed. If you visit the Lubrizol website and look up Silsense A-21 Silicone under the product tab, Personal Care, Specialty Silicones you can look at three separate formulations for this product(of which I have formulated 2 with a couple changes of my own) and none of them contain neither Trideceth nor Cetrimonium Chloride.
Both of those ingredients are known to prevent build up of silicones and other products that build up on hair. I use Cetrimonium Chloride in several products I make because it is also a great detangler but not such a great conditioner on its own. BTMS would be your best choice for a cationic conditioning emulsifier.......and there really has to be cationic emulsifier and or ingredients in a conditioner formula for it to actually condition hair because cations carry a positive charge that adsorb to the hair strand. Meaning it leaves a little behind after rinse off.

Hope I helped clear up any confusion for any other personal formulators out there even though this original post is a few years old. If you want to clarify on this ingredient or any other you can always email Lubrizol or another company I love dealing with, Rita Corp. Very nice, informative people. I would also refer you to another blogger, swiftcraftymonkey. Her actual name is Susan and she lives in Canada. She is also a personal formulator with a degree in chemistry and she is super knowledgeable and has a great sense of humor also. She also lists many formulas on her blog and ways to tweak them and has several e-books on lotion making, shampoo and conditioner etc. Check out her blog. You wont be disappointed.
NOTE: If you go to her site and type Amodimethicone in the search bar at the upper left of the screen she explains it very well. I noticed some people in other posts were confused about it being water soluble in the bottle but not on hair. She can clear up a lot of confusion. Many products form a film on the hair shaft, not just silicones.

Best regards and happy formulating to all you personal formulators!!

Last edited by Formulator11; 02-01-2013 at 07:07 PM. Reason: new info

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