Different company--same EXACT ingredients in product- I didn't notice UGH!

Like Tree1Likes

You rock kathy

And, as a side note, I got approval from the moderators to run a co-op! Woot, I may just organize that this weekend.
Grand Goobah Caedran, Aqueous Infusion of Demulcents, Order of the Curly Crusaders

Fia 2cFi, fine texture, med porosity CG 5-29-09 * My hair loves protein! Currently using : DermOrganics Shampoo and IHM, G2B Kinkier Mousse, Re:Coil VMM, Anything Spiral Solutions! MO Sealing. Coconut Oil Pre-Poo, once a month Hard Water shampoo. Avoiding Glycerin in finishing products.

KM - Please update us tomorrow. I'm curious to know if this is really the same product because I've been trying to purchase the "lavender-scented dupe" but have been waiting to hear back from their Customer Service on an issue. This thread may explain why I haven't heard anything...
3b, fine texture, low to normal porosity
Low Poos:
MOP C Hydrating, JC HCC, Ion Swimmer's Poo
Condish: GVP Balm, Kenra, Tigi Oatmeal/Honey, DE Coconut
Leave-In: BWC, Abba Gentle, KBB Nectar, GFTN
Stylers: CJ AF/CIAB, SS CEJ/FHG, QCCC, Komaza Puddings, EW SAJ or Alba Soft Curl w/KKSS, Kenra, Homemade FSG, AOMM, CK/QB HTSG

Save $5 off your first order at http://www.iherb.com. Use discount code: SOF540.
KM - Please update us tomorrow. I'm curious to know if this is really the same product because I've been trying to purchase the "lavender-scented dupe" but have been waiting to hear back from their Customer Service on an issue. This thread may explain why I haven't heard anything...
Originally Posted by tonsofcurlz
I was pouring product into a more manageable bottle. The consistency is thicker, but it is still cold from it's trip. It resembles the sample I got (clear,) rather then the three bottles of product I bought (slightly cloudy.) Of course, there is no smell. I still have a bottle of the original, for people who want to get both to compare.

What did you say to customer service??
3a (Corkicelli), highlighted, fine, low porosity
modified CG, since April '07
CG since 3/11/08

SE PA

HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Marie Dean Leave Ins and Curl Creams
Does that mean the "lavender-scented dupe" company is aware that *we're* aware that we can get the product from a wholesaler and add our own EO and get the 4x the product for 1/2 the price?? I kind of hope so.

I'm awaiting KM's test!
Knightess Firmus Aurum, Maid of the Mitten, Slayer of Dissertation Dragons in the Order of the Curly Crusaders
2b/medium; CG 5/20/09
Wash, co-wash, co: Queen Helene Royal Curl Shampoo / Conditioner, Kiehl's Amino Acid Shampoo / Conditioner, Redken Fresh Curls Shampoo, CJ Daily Fix,
Tigi MM
Stylers: Sally's Neutral Protein Filler as spray, Queen Helene Royal Curl Creme, LALSG
Techniques: Plop and Diffuse
Hair bio: http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlta...4&postcount=97


What did you say to customer service??
Originally Posted by kathymack

When I emailed customer service, I hadn't discovered this thread so I wasn't aware of the situation! I'd read Alex's original post back in December, but hadn't seen the updates. I actually recognized the ingredients on this thread today because I had just been reading them on the company's site. I emailed customer service asking why my "new" coupon code that supposedly didn't expire until the end of January wasn't working on the site. As soon as I posted to this thread, though, I got a response with a new coupon. I'm not sure what that means, solidgold. I don't know how she couldn't be aware if she reads this site.
3b, fine texture, low to normal porosity
Low Poos:
MOP C Hydrating, JC HCC, Ion Swimmer's Poo
Condish: GVP Balm, Kenra, Tigi Oatmeal/Honey, DE Coconut
Leave-In: BWC, Abba Gentle, KBB Nectar, GFTN
Stylers: CJ AF/CIAB, SS CEJ/FHG, QCCC, Komaza Puddings, EW SAJ or Alba Soft Curl w/KKSS, Kenra, Homemade FSG, AOMM, CK/QB HTSG

Save $5 off your first order at http://www.iherb.com. Use discount code: SOF540.
Goober - I'm in on this co-op thing if you're going to do it. I've been wanting to try the original product so if you're going to order it, I'll definitely take some.
Rhode Island - New England curly
2c-3a/F/i (Fia), shoulder length, need it cut!
Mod-CG since 10/09 - over 1 year!!

Cleanse: Suave condish, WF 365 lavender poo, soap, BS/ACV
Leave in: KCKT, CJ CF
Current winter stylers: CJ SG (HG!), AOMM, Boots, ALWAYS top w/ BRHG
PT: AOGPB, Emergencee, CJ CF
Diffuser dependent!
So what do you all recommend from this site?? All the choices are overwhelming me! I hope a co-op gets going and is successful because I've found some things I want to try that only come in a gallon or larger
http://www.dormroomcurly.blogspot.com


www.twitter.com/dormroomcurly

Fine/thin 2c/3a, Low-Medium Porosity, Dry!
I know, me too Laura! That's part of the reason I thought of the co-op in the first place. There are some non-hair things I want too
Grand Goobah Caedran, Aqueous Infusion of Demulcents, Order of the Curly Crusaders

Fia 2cFi, fine texture, med porosity CG 5-29-09 * My hair loves protein! Currently using : DermOrganics Shampoo and IHM, G2B Kinkier Mousse, Re:Coil VMM, Anything Spiral Solutions! MO Sealing. Coconut Oil Pre-Poo, once a month Hard Water shampoo. Avoiding Glycerin in finishing products.

My hair isn't quite dry--waited to do it until after health club this morning. I do have to say, I think it's the same product. Initially, it seemed so thick--but I think it was cold from shipment. It may be a little thicker then the product with the essential oil added--but I can't imagine there's that much EO added. It could also be that the batches vary from the wholesaler. I posted it on my fotki, with the other product and the ingredients for both, if anyone wants to try some.
3a (Corkicelli), highlighted, fine, low porosity
modified CG, since April '07
CG since 3/11/08

SE PA

HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Marie Dean Leave Ins and Curl Creams
So what companies and products?
Originally Posted by Heather0kay

I thought that was what this site is for...comparing and sharing the facts and our experiences with different hair products.

I mean we spend alot of money with these companies, so it's only fair that we know what's what. I can understand and respect the fact that you don't want to hurt their business, but to me..the truth is..

1. They're not paying us-we buy from them
2. I'm sure they wouldn't want to be misled.. unknowingly paying for the same product from different companies..no matter what the item is!
Originally Posted by VersaceCrazy
The more I looked at this thread, the more I thought about how appropriate it is to name the companies. If it was big line (i.e. Redken), I don't think there would be any hesitation to name the brand(s). I do think that after reading this thread and being told about the Essential Wholesale site (thanks Kathymack), it will allow us to make a more informed choice when we purchase items from 'handmade' companies.

The link and this post are fascinating.

What's interesting -- and I don't blame you -- is that the OP won't name the two companies. I imagine they are both popular on this site and revealing their names would seriously hurt the "mixtress" and the business. The other thing is the OP could be wrong, but I doubt that.
Originally Posted by Honeysmoke
My one hesitation about naming the company was that although I HIGHLY suspect they are using the Essential Wholesale items, I can't prove it. I'm not a scientist that can say for certain that there is the exact amount of each ingredient listed. I'm going to let you draw your own conclusions .... see below ....

Wow, I never thought of this.

Would you be willing to post the ingredients? That way you are not trashing the companies, but it might open our eyes as to what to look for. Even the word "base" leaves me blank -- not sure what that would look like.
Originally Posted by wavycurly40+
I decided that this is more than reasonable ... here the ingredients (as per nc.com), because the site doesn't list the ingredients. After comparing the ingredients myself and considering that the site doesn't list the ingredients .... I am highly suspicious, but as I said above - draw your own conclusions.

Aloe barbadensis (Organic Aloe) Juice, Hydroxyethyl Cellulose (plant derived), Phenoxyethanol, Tetrasodium EDTA, Lavendula officinalis (Lavender) Essential Oil, Citric Acid

Here are the ingredients from Essential Wholesale ...

Aloe barbadensis (Organic Aloe) Juice, Hydroxyethyl Cellulose, Phenoxyethanol, Tetrasodium EDTA, Citric Acid

I highlighted (bold font)the only difference I could see between the two listed ingredients. As I said before, without an analysis being conducted on each product to determine whether the concentration and quality of the ingredients are the same, I would not be willing to say for certain that both products are identical ... however ... one costs $22.05 for a half gallon and the other costs $15.00 for 8oz.

Of interest, this was posted on the 'about us' section of the website that sells the above product (listed in red above)
When the hair products I was using at the time did not provide enough moisture to serve my hair needs, I began researching products and ingredients that were moisture intensive. I discovered that natural humectants (substances that attract moisture from the air) were the best options for my hair to thrive. Throughout my research I learned that many beauty products contain harmful chemicals and toxins that can irritate skin and even cause cancer. I became scared of the potential threats and dangers of toxins such as parabens and sulfates and decided to create my own line of beauty products free of those harmful ingredients. After 6 months of figuring out how to make hair care products in my apartment kitchen, I knew it was time to share my products with the world.

I first created an eco-friendly hair care line, made with natural & organic ingredients,


It is the highlighted section above that really bugs me. Is it true??? After looking at the ingredient lists above, I don't believe that it is.

What I think is criminal about companies like this, is that it takes away from companies like, Kinky Curly, Afroveda, Curl Junkie, Oyin's, Shescentit and Jasmine's to name a few ... It must be awfully frustrating for companies like these to see other's advertise their 'discovery' or 'creation' of their handmade products after struggling with their hair, if all they are doing is purchasing their products from companies like Essential Wholesale. I'm sure there are many other companies out there that are similar to Essential Wholesale.

I know this is likely a standard process for larger companies like Proctor & Gamble, but they are not advertising products that they have created in "their apartment kitchen".
Originally Posted by FrizzBgone
Well, Googling the apartment kitchen line helped me figure that one out. I only know about them because I've seen their side-bar ad here.

I tend to not buy from many boutique lines (I think that Kinky Curly and Curl Junkie are big enough to be a bit beyond boutique, especially with KC being available in Whole Foods) because I find that they all use fairly common and inexpensive things like panthenol, glycerin, and wheat protein, none of which I use.

After seeing the essentialwholesale site, I see why. There is nothing there in the conditioner department that I would use either. Just by looking at the ingredient lists, it looks as if none of them would do a thing for my hair.
Kiva! Microfinance works.

Med/Coarse, porous curly.
You know RCC, I also have serious qualms over using a conditioner that has a pH of 3-4. Seriously? 3??? Isn't that a little Loooow?
Grand Goobah Caedran, Aqueous Infusion of Demulcents, Order of the Curly Crusaders

Fia 2cFi, fine texture, med porosity CG 5-29-09 * My hair loves protein! Currently using : DermOrganics Shampoo and IHM, G2B Kinkier Mousse, Re:Coil VMM, Anything Spiral Solutions! MO Sealing. Coconut Oil Pre-Poo, once a month Hard Water shampoo. Avoiding Glycerin in finishing products.

For perspective, vinegar is roughly 2.4, and lemon juice is about 2.2.

I've used straight vinegar on my hair for years-literally, like since junior high and my first perm.

Dunno if it's BAD, but it didn't eat my hair or anything.

From http://www.apple-cider-vinegar-benef...f-vinegar.html

The pH of vinegar depends upon how much acid is present, but most commercial distilled white vinegars contain 5% acetic acid and have a pH of about 2.4.
To put that in perspective, the following table compares the pH of vinegar to some other common solutions:


Dunno if that's helpful, or guano, but I thought it was interesting.
"It's a wonder God suffers so many fools, what with lightening so cheap"~Mark Twain

Lady Eklecktika Fidens of Caduceus
You know RCC, I also have serious qualms over using a conditioner that has a pH of 3-4. Seriously? 3??? Isn't that a little Loooow?
Originally Posted by goobernut
Well, being porous, I do like acidic stuff, but vinegar is around 3 IIRC. It does seem a bit low. 4 I might do. Baking soda is 8 or so and I hate that.
Kiva! Microfinance works.

Med/Coarse, porous curly.
Well -- in practice I don't know if it is damaging, but with all the info thrown at us on this site, I know some hair professionals who say that is way to acidic to use on a daily basis. They recommend doing a vinegar rinse only 1 to 2x a month on the conservative side.

I know some girls who do it a lot more without bad side effects (and I'm sure this is an individual thing), but even I have to question of putting a 3 pH on your hair every time you condition. That means the WHOLE solution has that acidity. With a vinegar rinse, or a lemon juice rinse, you usually dilute it, which always lowers the acidity. And you don't do it every day or every other day.

But, since I don't know the pH of every single store bought conditioner -- I have to wonder what they are? Is this industry standard for it to be on the low end? I could be using a product right now that is 3 pH and I'd never know (and here I am wondering about the horrible 3 pH conditioner) I mean seriously, these conditioners are lower in pH than a vinegar rinse. I thought conditioner range was around 5. That's a HUGE difference btw, between 3-5.
Grand Goobah Caedran, Aqueous Infusion of Demulcents, Order of the Curly Crusaders

Fia 2cFi, fine texture, med porosity CG 5-29-09 * My hair loves protein! Currently using : DermOrganics Shampoo and IHM, G2B Kinkier Mousse, Re:Coil VMM, Anything Spiral Solutions! MO Sealing. Coconut Oil Pre-Poo, once a month Hard Water shampoo. Avoiding Glycerin in finishing products.

Yeah, there is a huge difference between a 3 and a 5, and I never put straight vinegar on my hair. Brrrr! I use a rinse, and I never did pH test the rinse to see what it was. I like it once a week, but I am porous enough to handle once a week. Withe very wash would seem a bit much really.
Kiva! Microfinance works.

Med/Coarse, porous curly.
Every wash would be a little much, you're right. I'd use it, like you said, maybe once or twice a month just to perk up sagging curls, or to help lose some minerals (very hard water).

Time to go buy some pH strips, I guess, and start checking different conditioners.

I wonder what the industry standard is?
"It's a wonder God suffers so many fools, what with lightening so cheap"~Mark Twain

Lady Eklecktika Fidens of Caduceus
If water has a pH of 7.0--how much is a T of vinegar going to lower the pH?? There are 16 T in a cup?? I usually dilute at about 1:10. My pH strips are not exact because they have a wide range. I tested my mix and it's close to 6.0, barely changed the strip. I'd say the lowest my mix could be is 5.0, but probably a little higher--maybe 5.5. Which is why it makes sense that my stylist said I can do it as much as I want. (Most I ever do is twice a week.)

I couldn't use the Dr. Bronner's Shakakai--it was very acidic.
3a (Corkicelli), highlighted, fine, low porosity
modified CG, since April '07
CG since 3/11/08

SE PA

HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Marie Dean Leave Ins and Curl Creams
Okay, this is what Wikipedia had to say about it. WTF??? Conditioners are at 2.5 to 3.5???? Wiki CAN be wrong.

"Acidifiers
, acidity regulators which maintain the conditioner's pH at about 2.5–3.5. In contact with acidic environment, the hair's somewhat scaly surface tightens up, as the hydrogen bonds between the keratin molecules are strengthened."

Okay, so then I did some more web research, and some of the sites claim the big difference between salon brands and drugstore brands IS the pH. I did find a site about Joico (you'll be happy to know RCC) that all their conditioners range from 4.5-5. The Joico K-Pak is 3.5.

SOooOOOo in theory, you don't need to do an ACV after the Joico K-Pak, because Joico is lower in pH than your ACV rinse. lol.

I also just found this article by the curly chemist. Please pay attention to the "acidifying conditioner" subsection. In it she states the majority of conditioners are in the 4-5 range.

Sooooo what's the point of doing an ACV?
Grand Goobah Caedran, Aqueous Infusion of Demulcents, Order of the Curly Crusaders

Fia 2cFi, fine texture, med porosity CG 5-29-09 * My hair loves protein! Currently using : DermOrganics Shampoo and IHM, G2B Kinkier Mousse, Re:Coil VMM, Anything Spiral Solutions! MO Sealing. Coconut Oil Pre-Poo, once a month Hard Water shampoo. Avoiding Glycerin in finishing products.


Last edited by goobernut; 01-17-2010 at 05:14 PM.
I haven't checked out the updates on this thread in a while, and when I did today, Wow! I'm sure by now we all realize which company is being referred to by the OP. I recommended this product in an article I wrote for a national website, and frankly I feel like retracting it. I feel violated or something. I don't want to support companies who are representing themselves as hard-working, home-grown. In fact they're being lazier than companies who steal products from others, atleast the theives went to the trouble of making the dupe themselves. Has anyone pointed out the the company that we know it's a dupe?

ETA: I am in no way suggesting that it's okay to steal, it's just an example.
How's My Hair?
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3a-b, fine & medium texture, medium-high porosity from years of damaging. I'm addicted to changing my hair color.
Cleansing: No-Poo, Elucence MBS, YTC Poo,
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Styling: KCCC, LALPS, BRHG, Biotera Gel
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goober, I agree with what you're saying. I always suggest that people use products with a pH level between 4.5 and 5.5 if they aren't going to do an ACV rinse after soap bars. On the Afro Detangler product sheet that comes along with it states that the pH is (I forget the exact number) in that range and will restore hair's pH balance.

Most of the products on the essentialwholesale website have pH in that range.
3a (Corkicelli), highlighted, fine, low porosity
modified CG, since April '07
CG since 3/11/08

SE PA

HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Marie Dean Leave Ins and Curl Creams

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