Myrna

Listen up, Curlfriends. The guys you are talking about are more than likey YOUNG dudes. After they hit 30, and they start losing their hair, they really have no call to be dissing anyone's hair.

Korkscrew

Interesting. So does "black" for him mean anyone of any ethnicity who has dark skin?

Seems to me that people of African descent who are American citizens are often just called "Americans" (not African-Americans) by people in most non-US territories, with one notable exception being Africa.

I think what is considered "American" these days (nationality) is very much shaped by who is depicted most in American media, and most of the time those people are either "black" or "white" (or some admixture). That can marginalize the people who our media tends to leave out, like Latinos, Asians and Arabs IMO. Because even when those folks have American accents and mannerisms, etc., people often assume they are foreigners (including other Americans).

My husband constantly gets asked, "Where are you from?" even though he speaks perfect English and is culturally no different than your average homegrown American. He gets that question even AFTER he has started speaking. (He's Eurasian.)

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Myrna

He says in Canada it rarely comes up but that it depends on the context- Its probably fair to say that Canada, without the history of slavery and the institutionalization of racism that resulted, is probably much less racist than here in the US. I know, its kinda hard to believe...

Korkscrew

I am by no means an expert on Canadian life like your husband (just a few trips there and had a boyfriend from Quebec). I always figured that it was hard to tell whether there is less racism, or simply less opportunity for (overt) racism because there are so few minorities there, statistically. And there's so much vacant land that people can easily stay with their "own kind" without it looking like segregation.

Malcolm Gladwell talks about Canadian racism from whites in an article called "Black Like Them" (can google it). Malcolm is part-Jamaican (mother is a b/w mix with Ashkenazi ... ), and his father is English. He is a Canadian national. Here's an excerpt:

"[In Ontario] whites never guessed [I had African ancestry], and even after I informed them it never seemed to make a difference. Why would it? In a town that is ninety-nine per cent white, one modest alleged splash of color hardly amounts to a threat." But more telling ...

"The infamous Jane-Finch projects, in northern Toronto, were considered the Jamaican projects. The drug trade then taking off was said to be the Jamaican drug trade. In the popular imagination, Jamaicans were--and are--welfare queens and gun-toting gangsters and dissolute youths. In Ontario, blacks accused of crimes are released by the police eighteen per cent of the time; whites are released twenty-nine per cent of the time. In drug-trafficking and importing cases, blacks are twenty-seven times as likely as whites to be jailed before their trial takes place, and twenty times as likely to be imprisoned on drug-possession charges."

He goes on to address more negative white Canadian reactions to blacks, including a personal encounter: someone from Toronto made racist comments to Malcolm without realizing that Malcolm is the very target of his complaint.

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Myrna

My husband is originally from a small town in Ontario; he has lived in Quebec city, and also in Toronto, quite close to the area you mentioned.

I also am not an expert on racism in Canada (nor an expert on racism here, for that matter), but I am not naive enough to assume that racism is confined only to this country. In India, for example, historically, the lighter the skin the "better". And obviously there is racism in Africa. Racism is a blight. People also think anti Semitism does not exist. Also wrong.

Korkscrew

Yes to everything you just said In Asia (India and parts of the Orient), what you're describing (in part) involves "colorism" IMO (for those who don't know the def.: assigning value of personage contingent on the relative darkness and lightness of skin). My opinion is that much of racially prejudiced thinking in those regions (and other non-Euro areas) is often a direct result of European Colonization (long term dominance and control of those regions). I certainly can attest that West Indian cultures tend to have this issue (my mother has racist thinking, and I've had to work on my own attitude because of it).

At the same time, I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame at the feet of Europeans. Racism/colorism IMO, is just one form of xenophobia; one more form of clannish behavior and no one is w/out blame. There are so many other forms. I don't think it takes European influence for anyone of any bent to act from a prejudice or superior attitude. Prejudice IMO is at least partially driven by a primal need to survive rather than be dominated over, even if the belief is that one must dominate in order to survive among others. We are pack animals. Like wolves, we want to fit in, we want to belong, we want to have the security of saying that our pack is the mightiest, immune from shame or harm. To accomplish that, we must find a "them" to focus on - a pack who is seemingly weaker than our pack. When I notice myself thinking or acting from prejudice, I try and ask myself what I'm feeling insecure about - what's missing in me that I need to try and position myself as a "better" person than "him" or "them"?

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SVault

I have African, Chickasaw, Cherokee, and European ancestry. I've gone back to 700 on my family tree. Henry Louis Gates, Jr. states that a huge percentage of Black Americans has European ancestry. Which makes perfect sense. I use the term European loosely in my case because I have ancestors from several European countries. Mainly Scotland, Germany and England

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omgstopit

It kind of is like that where I'm from. If someone has dark skin they're black, without much of a distinction. I really, really don't mean to step on any toes at all but I have never in my life seen people more hung up on ethnicity than americans. I'm not saying it's a bad thing at all, but to those of us who aren't used to it it's kind of confusing.

For instance, I recently had to go to my local social security office because of an issue with my number. Eventually the guy asked me if I wanted to answer some voluntary questions; when I said yes, he asked me what ethnic group I belong to, then what ethnicity I think I am, and I'm like "that's not the same thing?" Apparently not. Before any of this I only had to worry about what my passport said pretty much and my ancestry was something I ever dug up when I had to explain my foreign last name...

Krullenbol

I know a lot of men who like curly hair....

Korkscrew

I agree that the US sometimes is too race-focused (like this writer LOL). At the same time, many multi-ethnic countries don't discuss race enough, possibly in hopes that ignoring the conversation will prevent having to honestly observe and tackle their racial inequity, or in a foolish hope that race issues will “naturally” be resolved, allowing for the avoidance of uncomfortable feelings, or conflict.

The US is so race-focused IMO, partially because we suffer from a post-Colonial mindset. Non-white and "mixed race" citizens are often under-valued and/or are pitted against each other; some “minority” ppl express racism and excuse it by calling it “pride”; many white Americans struggle to balance and maintain the socio-political privilege they've enjoyed as a result of their history of subjugation and domination of others (i.e.: African slaves and Native Indians), and their feelings of guilt about past and present racist behavior compete w/ an urge to maintain their political power. (To be fair, I think we ALL can be racist and we ALL can be power hungry. Throughout world history, certain non-white groups have conquered and subjugated many others, too.)

Your username just cracks me up Anyway, something else you said made me think and I'm posting it below. Maybe in some way, I'm writing a lot of this just to get my thoughts about this stuff outa my head.

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Korkscrew

QUOTE=omgstopit;2146805] [...] when I said yes, he asked me what ethnic group I belong to, then what ethnicity I think I am, and I'm like "that's not the same thing?" Apparently not.[/QUOTE]

Even today, people still want to know where others "land" on the race continuum ("What are you?"), and sometimes they ask to squeeze that person into his or her proper "caste", including on “official” questionnaires, (though some are legit, i.e.: medical). Which now makes me rethink my stance about answering all those “What are you?” questions so often

But those questions you were asked IMO could also speak to certain Americans' difficulty stating the naked facts of their ethnic background, to the best of their knowledge, or based on a DNA test, versus their social or psychologically internalized identity.

Sometimes obscuring racial facts are part of trying to break from a perceived “caste” (just checking “white” on a form when you're about 50/50% biracial.) Or sometimes it's to unwittingly support the caste system (marking “black” on a form, when you're biracial and have been pressured into obeying the infamous “One Drop Rule”). But sometimes it's just that a person honestly relates more to one “side” of her ethnic heritage than with the other/s. Still, it's just my opinion that when such a person "claims" only one of those equally prominent parts of her heritage, that's a choice which is identity only, not true to ethnic fact. If a person is generally multi-ethnic, then s/he is generally multi-ethnic, even if she identifies as mono-racial. Purple can call itself “just blue” as much as it wants, but it's still more or less equal parts red and blue.

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BlackAngelPlayah

What part of America do you live in? LoL! I've never known White Americans to just consider Blacks to just be "Americans". They always have to stick that "African" in front.

Just like if you were born in California and are of Asian decent you're Asian-American. Even if your great great GREAT grandfather AND mother was born here.

You don't hear Irish-American or German-American much.

But you hear African-American, Korean-American, Asian-American. There's actually a REFUSAL to just call "others" pure "American".

Hell even the "Indians" can't be just American and they got here way before the Europeans. They even had to stick Native in front of their American-ness!

Now a good portion of that may be our "fault" because previous terms to describe us were so offensive we need something better to be called. And the term sounded so nice so we stuck with it, but.... Naw, Dawg I don't think we are just considered "Americans" anywhere in America.

And we ARE off topic.

Guys who hate curly hair are just idiots and its best to leave them where they are... Or where they NEED to be- OUT OF YOUR LIFE!

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BlackAngelPlayah

Dang, just re ready your post. You said in the Territories.

Still that post was hella long and a point that still needed to be made.


Took me 10 minutes.

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