Go Back   CurlTalk > Hair > Keratin Services and Treatment

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-05-2014, 02:59 PM   #1
 
WhiteQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Angry Death to BB, I want my curls back!

So I had a Brazilian Blow out done to my slightly coarse, thick, 3A curls at the end of November when I got sick and tired of my hair drying out. I'm not sure what it was, but there were sections near my face that were straightening out for no good reason in the middle of the strand - totally retarded.

Anywho, I was very pleased with the results initially - silky, dead straight, super easy to blow out. Needless to say, a couple of months later, the lack of volume started to drive me crazy, and now I really, really miss my curls. I've washed my hair with baking soda and sulfate containing shampoos for a month now, and I've gotten some wave back, but it falls straight by midday. Now it's even weirder, because I have a couple inches of curly roots falling to two feet of timid waves. It looks horrible, and I have no idea how to style it.

So the questions are as follows -

1. I heard coloring my virgin hair might take out the BB all together and bring back my curls, and I'm considering an ombre. Can anyone speak from experience about it?

2. Short of living in the pool, does anyone have any other ideas to bounce back my curl?

3. Any other styling tips? I'm getting sick of stringy waves behind a headband or bangs clipped back.

4. Lastly... Perm it?? Thoughts?

Thanks for the help!!!

Last edited by WhiteQueen; 03-05-2014 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Forgot something.
WhiteQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 03:11 PM   #2
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,594
Default

Your curl may have been permanently destroyed by the very high heat of the flat irons in a BB. You may not be able to remove the treatment if so, you may have to grow or cut it out.

If your hair was dry or damaged before and is heat damaged now, it would not be wise to use permanent colour or do a curly perm as these cause even more damage. Ditto chlorinated pool water.

Any experimenting you do practise on shed plughole or hidden head hair, don't use your whole head as a laboratory unless you are willing to 'big chop'.

For styling tips see YouTube channel of any vlogger transitioning from relaxer to natural hair.
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
Firefox7275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 03:12 PM   #3
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,594
Default

BTW I wouldn't describe hair that has had a keratin straightening and won't bounce back as virgin. It would have more in common with relaxed or permanently dyed hair.
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
Firefox7275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 03:35 PM   #4
 
WhiteQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Default

My hair has never been relaxed or colored, so it is in fact virgin. The keratin is coming off, just painfully slowly.

My hair was frizzy before, but not damaged. I had been in the middle of switching to a no poo method, so the dryness was more the coarse texture coming though. I'm sure my hair could easily survive a coloring, there really isn't any breakage, not even split ends.


Sent from my HTC One mini using CurlTalk App
__________________
3b top with 3a under, medium porosity, high density, medium to coarse texture.
Curly since '03, heading to Sulfate and Silicone free, waiting out a Brazilian Blowout done end of 11/13..
System: SheaMoisture, Raw Shea Butter Restorative Shampoo and Conditioner, Curl Enhancing Styling Milk and (very little!) Smoothie.

WhiteQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 03:07 AM   #5
 
Bruchilda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 104
Default

I still cannot understand how some of you guys cannot get your curls back. I ve been doing original f/hyde keratin treatments for 3 years in a row over and over again and right now (it s been 4 months since my last one) I got almost all my curls back.

3 months are not enough for your hair to revert completely tho.
I would suggest to wait a little bit more. Depending how often you wash your hair, how strong the treatment was and the thickness of your hair, it would need anything from 2-6 months.

Coloring is another option, especially if you haven't colored before.
You ll see greater reverting speed.

DO NOT perm it, it is very damaging and it's not worth it if you have naturally curly hair.

As for the styling, scrunch some gel or mousse on wet hair and use a difuser (or air dry).
Two inches of new growth shouldnt stand out if you re a 3a. You re propably paying too much attention.

Last edited by Bruchilda; 03-06-2014 at 03:13 AM.
Bruchilda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 05:29 AM   #6
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 783
Default

Hair that has been colored or chemically processed in any way is no longer considered virgin.
__________________
2C/3A, fine, normal porosity.
JLeighs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 06:59 AM   #7
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,594
Default

WhiteQueen: hairdressers may claim that keratin services will just coat your hair, strengthen it and can be removed. This is not entirely accurate, science does not support the marketing claims.

Very high heats combined with the chemicals used in a keratin straightening can sometimes *permanently and irreversibly* alter the protein structure of the hair, this is irreversible. The proteins in the hair and in the product can 'melt' and never regain their former shape or function (see Natural Haven blog). It is also possible for certain silicones to be melted into or onto the hair forming a permanent layer of 'plastic'. This negatively affects any future chemical service.

Traditional chemical services like dying and relaxing again *permanently and irreversibly* alter the protein structure of the hair. Ultimately in all cases to any scientist the hair looks, tests and behaves as non virgin and should be treated as such.

If you are not convinced consider a microscope hair analysis from Goosefootprints on Etsy or Komaza Care. At the very least run strand tests before dying or curly perming.
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
Firefox7275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 07:19 AM   #8
 
WhiteQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Default

Bruchilda: 2 inches of curl, about 4 inches of straight hair.. maybe I'm another category. I just started out with this site, still getting the hang of that system! Thanks a lot for your info tho, I appreciate the timeline bit most! I'll give it a little more time, see how it goes.. This morning my hair curled quite a ways differently - I'll definitely consider that diffuser! I've never used it because it just used to make my hair very frizzy.

Firefox: Very true - I have personal experience with silicone effects, due to the fact that my mother ritually blowdried my hair until my senior year of high school. She used quite a bit of cone drops to smooth it out, and I just thought all that blowdrying was normal for everyone. I was completely unaware that I actually had curly hair until 12th grade! It took about a year of natural care and shunning the blower till my curls came back like my maker intended them. Needless to day, mom was menacing me with the blower on a regular basis.

I was unaware that that sort of analysis existed, I'll definitely consider it! I think I'll get an at-home coloring kit and try it out on a small chunk of hair at the name of my neck to see what happens before I do anything else - who knows, maybe I'll paint it blue
WhiteQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 07:41 AM   #9
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,594
Default

Oooh blue, lovely!! I am berry pink, eventually I'd like am ombr with this colour and royal purple.
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
Firefox7275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 07:49 AM   #10
 
WhiteQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Default

That sounds gorgeous.. I've always wanted to go ballerina pink.. if my hair wasn't so dark, I'd probably go for it!
__________________
3b top with 3a under, medium porosity, high density, medium to coarse texture.
Curly since '03, heading to Sulfate and Silicone free, waiting out a Brazilian Blowout done end of 11/13..
System: SheaMoisture, Raw Shea Butter Restorative Shampoo and Conditioner, Curl Enhancing Styling Milk and (very little!) Smoothie.

WhiteQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:17 AM   #11
 
Bruchilda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 104
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefox7275 View Post

Very high heats combined with the chemicals used in a keratin straightening can sometimes *permanently and irreversibly* alter the protein structure of the hair, this is irreversible. The proteins in the hair and in the product can 'melt' and never regain their former shape or function (see Natural Haven blog). It is also possible for certain silicones to be melted into or onto the hair forming a permanent layer of 'plastic'.
interesting...
THe fact that proteins and silicons are melted into or onto the hair...how could result to weakening of the hair. The shape of the bonds might change resulting in a looser curl pattern (witch might or might not be desirable) but there is a protein/silicon inner or outer "shield" that did not exist before.
That should tecnhically "strengthen" the hair either due to more protein/silicon moleculs (greater elasticity/strength and less porosity) or more slip and less weathering of the cuticle...Correct me if I m wrong

I ve met 2-3 girls that constantly bleach or dye their hair who claim to finally gain length after years of breakage due to keratin treatments.
Bruchilda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:24 AM   #12
 
WhiteQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruchilda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefox7275 View Post

Very high heats combined with the chemicals used in a keratin straightening can sometimes *permanently and irreversibly* alter the protein structure of the hair, this is irreversible. The proteins in the hair and in the product can 'melt' and never regain their former shape or function (see Natural Haven blog). It is also possible for certain silicones to be melted into or onto the hair forming a permanent layer of 'plastic'.
interesting...
THe fact that proteins and silicons are melted into or onto the hair...how could result to weakening of the hair. The shape of the bonds might change resulting in a looser curl pattern (witch might or might not be desirable) but there is a protein/silicon inner or outer "shield" that did not exist before.
That should tecnhically "strengthen" the hair either due to more protein/silicon moleculs (greater elasticity/strength and less porosity) or more slip and less weathering of the cuticle...Correct me if I m wrong

I ve met 2-3 girls that constantly bleach or dye their hair who claim to finally gain length after years of breakage due to keratin treatments.
It's technically been plasticized, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it makes the strands stronger. If that outer coat wears away (like mine did after my first year with no silicone), the hair goes back to its original texture.. sometimes weakened at its core because it was sealed against the outside world, not allowing it to absorb any additional moisture, proteins, etc. Think of keratin treatments like a cast on a broken arm. It'll help the broken part heal on its own if it's damaged, but it won't come out with muscles.
__________________
3b top with 3a under, medium porosity, high density, medium to coarse texture.
Curly since '03, heading to Sulfate and Silicone free, waiting out a Brazilian Blowout done end of 11/13..
System: SheaMoisture, Raw Shea Butter Restorative Shampoo and Conditioner, Curl Enhancing Styling Milk and (very little!) Smoothie.

WhiteQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:49 AM   #13
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,594
Default

Bruchilda: it can make hair more brittle/ low elasticity, so snaps easily. With proteins the structure and conformation is INTIMATELY tied to function and behaviour. With hair this can affect ability to hold water as well as general flexibility and strength.

The 'melting' thing is known as denaturing and is sometimes irreversible, think of what happens to an egg when you cook it. Previously the viscous white (pure protein) is sticky yet flexible after it is solid and rubbery. The yolk (fat and protein) goes from a creamy liquid to a crumbly solid. You can mix water in a raw egg but not with a cooked egg. You can separate a raw egg and put it back together because chemical bonds can break and reform, you cannot do this to a cooked egg.

Also the high temperature flat iron can damage hair in other ways, for example 'bubble hair' where steam from the cortex burst through the protective cuticle literally blowing a hole in it.

Sorry bit rambling but hope it makes some sense.
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
Firefox7275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 08:56 AM   #14
 
Bruchilda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 104
Default

@ whiteQueen
That would be the case if hair was able to nurish and heal itself.
But since is only a dead peace of keratin bonds, you can only preserve it from further damage.

All the conditioning agents are not mented to nourish the hair but preserve them in good condition after every wash till the next one. So anything you apply in it is to replace and substitute any hair components that are missing (for one reason or another).

That is how a keratin treatment might work. Preserving what is underneath the silicon/keratin "shield" and the protein patches , till they are gone. MAybe there is heat damage underneath, maybe not, but if you go ahead and do it again, you will replace the shield till it's gone again.
Bruchilda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:33 AM   #15
 
Bruchilda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 104
Default

FireFox

I m not sure the example of the egg is a related one in the case of hair. Of course it makes sense but we are talking about different things even tho they re made of same category components

I think about hair during the treatment as a piece of plastic. If you place it very close to or on fire it is going to deform permanently. But when it ll cool down it ll be as strong as before, the only thing that changes is the shape. You MIGHT damage the ability of hair to hold water but you simultaneously add condioning agents that would balance that side effect.
Maybe the heat damage would severely affect the hair when is reapeted, causing the hair bonds to deform and revert again and again. (in usual heat styling, not BKT)
Or else most of the women should be short haired due to styling.
I don't know, i just hypothesize.


I do agree that you migh cause irreversable damage but the flat iron during the treatment is (supposed to be) applied STRICTLY on 100% dried hair and the heat should be adgusted according to hair thickness.

Very low porosity hair is likely not be fully dried before the iron process because it would take TOO long. Even high porosity hair with that product on it takes almost 30 minutes to be fully blow dried. That could cause bubble hair indeed!
Very fine hair are on the other hand very prone to heat damage and most of the stylists are unqualified to even understand this, and lower the heat of the iron. Some cannot even distinguish fine from medium or coarse.

I cannot explain how else some heads get "destroyed" and some revert in their previous state.

Last edited by Bruchilda; 03-06-2014 at 09:36 AM.
Bruchilda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 11:14 AM   #16
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,594
Default

The egg was a lay example of what happens when a protein denatures. It is applicable to enzymes and other proteins, the structure-function relationship is absolute. Admittedly it is a good decade since I studied biochemistry in my first degree, but AFAIK this principle is not outmoded.

With hair you are looking at tensile strength which includes an element of flexibility or elasticity, brittleness leads to breakage. Actually some plastics (a big family) become very brittle when heated and cooled, they do not regain all their former properties.

As I said denaturing is *sometimes* irreversible. We are discussing permanent heat damage from very high temperatures, not temporary denaturing from more moderate temperature flat ironing - technique also plays a role in the level of damage (how many passes/ how slow etc) as does preexisting damage and fineness/ coarseness as you say.

The precise temperatures that irreversible and partially reversible 'melting' occurs are given on the Natural Haven blog. Keratin services just don't work if you stick entirely in the safe zone, so there is always risk of some permanent damage which may or may not be visible to the naked eye or evident in how hair behaves (eg. brittleness).

Some heat styling such as blow frying utilises water. This temporarily breaks a specific group of structural protein bonds in hair, these reform as hair dries. Using a round brush encourages the bonds to reform in a different position, wetting the hair breaks these bonds and they revert to their preferred conformation. It is possible to achieve this with low to no heat, tho clearly the drying process is painfully slow. The same principle is used in wet wrapping.
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
Firefox7275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2014, 09:41 PM   #17
 
AngelaE8654's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 94
Default

I always used to think it was weird when girls with straight hair would complain about it "hanging straight down" and having no volume since I thought the clean, shiny look was so beautiful. However, when straightening my hair I lose so much volume (and I have a lot of hair) that it just looks "blah". I prefer the curls and volume now that I've tried both. I've never had any kind of chemical straightening process nor have I ever colored my hair. Haven't had a perm in about 30 years but I have had a couple of perms in my lifetime.
__________________


2c or 3A; can't really tell. Probably a "curly" 2c. Been thick and coarse since birth. Healthy hair and a great cut will show your curls in all their glory.


All in all, I'm happy with my hair type but almost for sure think yours is prettier.
AngelaE8654 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 06:11 AM   #18
 
WhiteQueen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Default

I totally hear you. When I blowdry curly hair, the volume is awesome, and i was really happy with it. But the brazilian left me with 'real' straight hair... now i understand the frustration with curls falling flat and lack of oomph. Once i fix this mess, I'm never messing it up again.

Update: i havent been able to get inthe pool much, but the sulfate shampoo seems to be working.. slowly but surely. Hooefully all will be back to normal in a couple of months. :/
__________________
3b top with 3a under, medium porosity, high density, medium to coarse texture.
Curly since '03, heading to Sulfate and Silicone free, waiting out a Brazilian Blowout done end of 11/13..
System: SheaMoisture, Raw Shea Butter Restorative Shampoo and Conditioner, Curl Enhancing Styling Milk and (very little!) Smoothie.

WhiteQueen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2014, 06:44 AM   #19
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2
Default

Try twisting your hair in sections depending on how tight you want the curl and use foam curling rods on the ends..... Has literally saved me from cutting my treated hair. The sulfate shampoos only did so much combined with deep conditioning.
kea_melissa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
brazilian, coloring, revert, roots
Trending Topics[-]hide

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2011 NaturallyCurly.com