My hair is puzzled and needs help!

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  • 1 Post By Firefox7275
  • 1 Post By rapunzel4ever

Since the moisture vs. conditioning thread I tried to fix my hair. I figured that my hair needed moisture and not more conditioning... but now it seems that EVERYTHING is building up on my hair!
I really need your thoughts on this, because I'm completely puzzled!

Kathymack suggested the possibility for polyquat build-up, so I clarified with a SLES-poo and left out any PQ. But I still kept the frizz when wet!

My hair felt extremely dry today so I washed with a bit of Aubrey Swimmers, because it is said to remove any other kind of buid-up (like from what is in the water) and is soft on your hair at the same time. My hair felt dry on application and after that I conditioned my hair with Aubrey GPB protein co. I left it on my hair for 15 min. My hair felt really soft after that, but after rinsing out the ends felt really dry again.
Then I tried a couple of conditioners that I rinsed out one after another because they all gave me frizz, even coconut oil made my hair dry on application while it usually enhances clumping (what about that?!).
I rinsed with a mild acv. Used the GPB for Li and a non-sticky humectant free gel to get the clumps going. Then my hair looked a bit better. Now my hair's in a plop..

I don't know what to use anymore to moisturize my hair?? It seems I am getting build-up (from water itself even!) and so I have read almost every thread and article about ingredients, but it made me confused even more. One article states that a certain kind of ingredient works well for cleaning purpose and the other says that it builds up.
But every products contains one or more of these ingredients, like polyquats, cetrimonium chloride or behentrimonium chloride, oils/butters etc!

Dewpoints are tricky at the moment, between 55-62F
2B/C-3A) fine - low porosity
Routine:
Wash: Daily Fix,SMT, Kesham, Urtekram
RO: Motions CPR Li, Inecto Cocos co, AO GPB, KCTT
acv-rinse, sometimes honey-rinse
LI: coconut oil (winter), CJBC-LI
Styling: AVG, Etos Solid Power Gel, Taft gel, CJPP
, JCCC, BRHG
Plopping~Pixiecurl diffuse~clipping
KrullenWijzer.blogspot.nl
Wow, can I ever relate!

Do you live in Wisconsin perhaps??

I am not sure it is the conditioners that cause frizz, but I would like an expert opinion on that. I think its the styling products, but I have been all over the map on styling products - and I still have frizz.
@Myrna: I'm glad I'm not alone. No, I don't live in Wisconsin, I live in the Netherlands :-)

After reading more threads on high dewpoints I think my frizz problems are dp-related. This morning I realized it's my first summer as a wavy/curly with high dp's that I try to style my hair with gel..
Last year I was on holiday in Spain around this time of year, with the same high dp's, but then I only conditioned and sealed my hair and used a small amount of mousse to prevent my hair from being completely flyaway. Never bothered for more than waves, because I was on the beach everyday.

I think it's strange that I never have problems finding a routine that works for me in winter (low dp's), but I always struggle in the summer.
_____
2b-c/3a med/fine- low porosity- normal elasticity, BSL
2B/C-3A) fine - low porosity
Routine:
Wash: Daily Fix,SMT, Kesham, Urtekram
RO: Motions CPR Li, Inecto Cocos co, AO GPB, KCTT
acv-rinse, sometimes honey-rinse
LI: coconut oil (winter), CJBC-LI
Styling: AVG, Etos Solid Power Gel, Taft gel, CJPP
, JCCC, BRHG
Plopping~Pixiecurl diffuse~clipping
KrullenWijzer.blogspot.nl

Last edited by rapunzel4ever; 07-18-2013 at 11:32 PM.
Since the moisture vs. conditioning thread I tried to fix my hair. I figured that my hair needed moisture and not more conditioning... but now it seems that EVERYTHING is building up on my hair!
I really need your thoughts on this, because I'm completely puzzled!

Kathymack suggested the possibility for polyquat build-up, so I clarified with a SLES-poo and left out any PQ. But I still kept the frizz when wet!

My hair felt extremely dry today so I washed with a bit of Aubrey Swimmers, because it is said to remove any other kind of buid-up (like from what is in the water) and is soft on your hair at the same time. My hair felt dry on application and after that I conditioned my hair with Aubrey GPB protein co. I left it on my hair for 15 min. My hair felt really soft after that, but after rinsing out the ends felt really dry again.
Then I tried a couple of conditioners that I rinsed out one after another because they all gave me frizz, even coconut oil made my hair dry on application while it usually enhances clumping (what about that?!).
I rinsed with a mild acv. Used the GPB for Li and a non-sticky humectant free gel to get the clumps going. Then my hair looked a bit better. Now my hair's in a plop..

I don't know what to use anymore to moisturize my hair?? It seems I am getting build-up (from water itself even!) and so I have read almost every thread and article about ingredients, but it made me confused even more. One article states that a certain kind of ingredient works well for cleaning purpose and the other says that it builds up.
But every products contains one or more of these ingredients, like polyquats, cetrimonium chloride or behentrimonium chloride, oils/butters etc!

Dewpoints are tricky at the moment, between 55-62F
Originally Posted by rapunzel4ever
Many ingredients play many different roles depending how you use them, they have major and minor properties. Cationic surfactants are weak cleansers because they emulsify (mix oil with water) but you have to use massage and rinsing to make them do that. If you just smooth onto hair, soak and rinse they will stick to the hair and reduce friction (condition). That is really useful in formulation, you can 'ask' one ingredient to perform several tasks.

It is like you eat oily fish that is a good source of essential fatty acids, protein, vitamin D and various other vitamins and minerals. Or you can make an egg into various things, you could eat raw in a shake (ugh!), or have hard boiled or soft fried or scrambled. A balanced diet is eating a certain number of portions from different food groups so that you get all the nutrients; a balanced haircare routine is similar. They key is putting products and ingredients into the right 'food groups' so you get a balance which NC can help you with if you post up ingredients lists.

Because most ingredients that condition hair do that by adhering to the surface in theory many of them could build up if you don't cleanse your hair properly. They are not all likely to build up tho, the ones that are likely to build up include many silicones (not all), some polyquats (not all), butters, mineral oil/ petrolatum, waxes including cetyl esters.

Most natural oils will not build up, nor will the cationic surfactants you mention unless you are not cleansing properly. Some conditioning agents can sometimes cause scummy build up if mixed with shampoo, the solution is not to do that, rinse your leave in conditioner away carefully before applying shampoo.

Some of the problems we have here on NC are down to people not cleansing their hair properly and/ or overusing ingredients that are likely to build up. Cleansers are there to cleanse without stripping, not condition or 'moisturise' they can't effectively do both at once. Just use a basic low poo or basic cleansing conditioner, maybe have a clarifier on stand by. Plenty of product, plenty of massage, plenty of rinsing until your hair literally feels 'squeaky' clean.

I'm a little confused as to why you think your hair needs to be moisturised, and why you have been going about it the way you have. Key ingredients for moisturising (adding or increasing water) is anything that acts as a humectant or is rich in humectants. I wouldn't call GBP that? And then a humectant free gel?

Be aware that water alone will 'moisturise' or soften hair, if you leave your hair wet for say ten minutes the water will start unravelling the proteins in the hair making it feel more conditioned. There is no benefit in using numerous conditioners one after the other, once all the places on the surface of the hair that conditioner sticks to have conditioner molecules on then you can't condition your hair any more without build up.

Hope that makes sense and has not confused you more!
rapunzel4ever likes this.
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
Experimenting with: benign neglect

Last edited by Firefox7275; 07-20-2013 at 04:54 AM.

Many ingredients play many different roles depending how you use them, they have major and minor properties. Cationic surfactants are weak cleansers because they emulsify (mix oil with water) but you have to use massage and rinsing to make them do that. If you just smooth onto hair, soak and rinse they will stick to the hair and reduce friction (condition). That is really useful in formulation, you can 'ask' one ingredient to perform several tasks.

It is like you eat oily fish that is a good source of essential fatty acids, protein, vitamin D and various other vitamins and minerals. Or you can make an egg into various things, you could eat raw in a shake (ugh!), or have hard boiled or soft fried or scrambled. A balanced diet is eating a certain number of portions from different food groups so that you get all the nutrients; a balanced haircare routine is similar. They key is putting products and ingredients into the right 'food groups' so you get a balance which NC can help you with if you post up ingredients lists.

Because most ingredients that condition hair do that by adhering to the surface in theory many of them could build up if you don't cleanse your hair properly. They are not all likely to build up tho, the ones that are likely to build up include many silicones (not all), some polyquats (not all), butters, mineral oil/ petrolatum, waxes including cetyl esters.

Most natural oils will not build up, nor will the cationic surfactants you mention unless you are not cleansing properly. Some conditioning agents can sometimes cause scummy build up if mixed with shampoo, the solution is not to do that, rinse your leave in conditioner away carefully before applying shampoo.

Some of the problems we have here on NC are down to people not cleansing their hair properly and/ or overusing ingredients that are likely to build up. Cleansers are there to cleanse without stripping, not condition or 'moisturise' they can't effectively do both at once. Just use a basic low poo or basic cleansing conditioner, maybe have a clarifier on stand by. Plenty of product, plenty of massage, plenty of rinsing until your hair literally feels 'squeaky' clean.

I'm a little confused as to why you think your hair needs to be moisturised, and why you have been going about it the way you have. Key ingredients for moisturising (adding or increasing water) is anything that acts as a humectant or is rich in humectants. I wouldn't call GBP that? And then a humectant free gel?

Be aware that water alone will 'moisturise' or soften hair, if you leave your hair wet for say ten minutes the water will start unravelling the proteins in the hair making it feel more conditioned. There is no benefit in using numerous conditioners one after the other, once all the places on the surface of the hair that conditioner sticks to have conditioner molecules on then you can't condition your hair any more without build up.

Hope that makes sense and has not confused you more!
Originally Posted by Firefox7275
@Firefox: First of all I'd like to thank you for all your insights in all things hair related, I've learned so much from your sciency input! English is -obviously- not my first language, so I have to read some posts twice or more to really understand its content. But you've cleared up a lot of things for me. And when not, you may always correct me when I'm wrong :-)

Why should I want more moisture, you're asking? Because I've read some things about frizz and hot humid days and that it's key to keep your hair moisturized so it won't want to "grasp" the moist that's in the air.
That's also why I thought I should up the protein (hence the GPB) so the hair would be able to hold on to moisture even better (or so I've read somewhere on the forum).
And the humectant free gel should work additionally to that, was my thought.

But maybe with my low porous hair humectants can't hurt me that much, but I should be more careful of ingredients that weighs the hair down, like butters?

In this case I guess you're completely right about the cleansing part of the routine and that it might be the culprit of my problems (and my daughter's).
When in a hurry -or in the case of my 4yrs. old daughter, fear of washing hair- I wet my hair (or her's) and put on the shampoo right after that.

The other day I've cleansed my hair while I had more time to do it properly and I started with rinsing my hair thoroughly, then put a mix of CO, AVG and honey on my hair and let it sit for half an hour. Sometimes I use this mix to co-wash my hair. After rinsing thoroughly I used gel with humectant and styled it the way I'm used to. All this worked a whole lot better on my hair then anything else I've tried lately.

Maybe you could write a thread about "how to cleanse properly without adding any build-up" , but maybe you've already done that and I completely missed it
_____
2b-c/3a med/fine- low porosity- normal elasticity, BSL
Firefox7275 likes this.
2B/C-3A) fine - low porosity
Routine:
Wash: Daily Fix,SMT, Kesham, Urtekram
RO: Motions CPR Li, Inecto Cocos co, AO GPB, KCTT
acv-rinse, sometimes honey-rinse
LI: coconut oil (winter), CJBC-LI
Styling: AVG, Etos Solid Power Gel, Taft gel, CJPP
, JCCC, BRHG
Plopping~Pixiecurl diffuse~clipping
KrullenWijzer.blogspot.nl

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