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Old 07-04-2013, 08:12 AM   #1
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Default Oy! The confusion

It doesn't seem like the principal of CG method should be complicated. However, I'm getting confused the more I read stuff here.

Do I use low-poo (which is sulfate free yes?) or do I just use co-was (which is washing with silicone free conditioner?)

My hair gets greasy after 2 days of not washing. Now, keep in mind I've been using regular sulfate poo so is that why my hair gets really greasy? Is my scalp overcompensating?

My son is the same. Very greasy hair. He also has white flakes. I *think* this is allergy related because he has allergies and has suffered from a rash in his face for years.

My hair is mixed texture and the CG book is the first place I heard that this can be normal. All my life I've been told I have "weird" hair because it's not all one texture. My bottom layer is curly wavy (it will sometimes form loose ringlets) while the top layer is stringy like straw, flat, straight with barely any wave.

Every single stylist has told me they have never seen such "messed up confused" hair as mine. So I always thought my hair was a freak of nature. Maybe it is.

I've always wished I could chop off the top layer of my hair so I could show my pretty curls hiding underneath.

I have an appointment with a CG stylist next month. In the mean time I'm trying to figure out what to do.

So the greasy hair.....is this transition and I need to deal with it? What do I do? Does this mean my hair does not need extra moisture and I should not do a conditioner leave in?

I don't blow dry ever. I'm going to buy some clips to try and help my top layer from drying flat on my head like it does. I hate the top layer of my hair! It's like a layer of stringy straw with frayed ends despite how often it's cut.

For what it's worth, I put my hair in a bowl of water and it floats. So what does that mean? It also stretches without breaking but the top layer hair did not bounce back while the bottom layer hair did bounce back.

Please help.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:35 AM   #2
 
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Your son should make an appointment with his family doctor and have his scalp and face issues formally diagnosed. He should check out the ingredients and pH of his shampoo, face wash and shaving products. Many shave products are alkaline to soften the beard, this damages the skin's protective acid mantle/ beneficial flora. Even residues of products rinsing over the skin in the shower can be a problem - my elbow patch of atopic eczema was triggered by shampoo bubbles running down my arm.

Greasy hair, yes it can be down to irritation and stripping from harsh shampoos, not just sulphates but anything alkaline such as soap or baking soda. You can either co-wash (better for medium to coarse, dry or damaged hair) or use a pH appropriate sulphate free shampoo (better for fine or thin hair, certain skin complaints). Excessive sebum can also be lifestyle related, are you both eating an anti inflammatory nutrient dense wholefood diet?

Sounds like the canopy of your hair is dry or damaged or porous. Do you have a history of brushing that section, have it high or lowlighted, do you expose it to sunlight or let water from a power shower beat down on it? If your ends are splitting soon after cutting that suggests you are not taking enough off. Do you have hard water or go swimming, if so have you tried a chelating wash?

Sebum is not moisture it is oil/ wax so occlusive, water = moisture. Moisturising/ conditioning is about helping your hair retain the right amount of water, not too much and not too little. Also your ends need more conditioning than your roots, yet sebum rarely makes it right down to the ends.

You need to know all your hair properties (it's fine to have one set for the canopy and another for the underlayer) and your dew points/ humidity, then choose ingredients and products. Fine or damaged hair tends to do well with hydrolysed protein, coarse hair hates it. Porous hair can benefit from coconut oil, low porosity may need to limit oils. Humectants are moisturising in mid dew points but can be drying if they are very high or very low.

Generally cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols onto dripping wet hair will help the canopy clump, it's difficult for many of us to use too much leave in conditioner on dry or damaged hair.
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2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics

Last edited by Firefox7275; 07-04-2013 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 09:59 AM   #3
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefox7275 View Post
Your son should make an appointment with his family doctor and have his scalp and face issues formally diagnosed. He should check out the ingredients and pH of his shampoo, face wash and shaving products. Many shave products are alkaline to soften the beard, this damages the skin's protective acid mantle/ beneficial flora. Even residues of products rinsing over the skin in the shower can be a problem - my elbow patch of atopic eczema was triggered by shampoo bubbles running down my arm.
He's too young to shave. We're working with an allergist trying to figure out his allergies. He's very allergic to environmental allergens and nuts/peanuts. He now takes a prescription antihistamine and the rash has greatly improved. He has always battled "cradle cap" as he had it badly as a baby/toddler and it never really went away. He has had prescription shampoos in the past and then his hair is like a clown wig.


Quote:
Greasy hair, yes it can be down to irritation and stripping from harsh shampoos, not just sulphates but anything alkaline such as soap or baking soda. You can either co-wash (better for medium to coarse, dry or damaged hair) or use a pH appropriate sulphate free shampoo (better for fine or thin hair, certain skin complaints). Excessive sebum can also be lifestyle related, are you both eating an anti inflammatory nutrient dense wholefood diet?
We have had quite a bit of testing as far as food goes. I'm celiac and he has multiple food allergies. My family does not eat gluten. We do not eat processed food. We do not eat fast food. It's just too risky. So whether I like it or not I cook everything we eat.


Quote:
Sounds like the canopy of your hair is dry or damaged or porous. Do you have a history of brushing that section, have it high or lowlighted, do you expose it to sunlight or let water from a power shower beat down on it? If your ends are splitting soon after cutting that suggests you are not taking enough off. Do you have hard water or go swimming, if so have you tried a chelating wash?
I have a wide paddle brush I used daily but never on wet hair. I have not had my hair color treated in over 6 years. I try not be in direct sunlight for long periods of time although I should wear hats more often. I have a low flow shower head but I do like hot showers. I read that hot water is not good for hair. Correct?

We have well water and have a water filter for the main water pipe for the house. I do not swim often.

I've never tried a chelating wash. How does one do that?


Quote:
Sebum is not moisture it is oil/ wax so occlusive, water = moisture. Moisturising/ conditioning is about helping your hair retain the right amount of water, not too much and not too little. Also your ends need more conditioning than your roots, yet sebum rarely makes it right down to the ends.
Got it. Thanks. Moisture is water not oil. I confused the two.

Quote:
You need to know all your hair properties (it's fine to have one set for the canopy and another for the underlayer) and your dew points/ humidity, then choose ingredients and products. Fine or damaged hair tends to do well with hydrolysed protein, coarse hair hates it. Porous hair can benefit from coconut oil, low porosity may need to limit oils. Humectants are moisturising in mid dew points but can be drying if they are very high or very low.
I can read the words you typed, but it's like a foreign language. I'm hoping the new stylist (found her based on recommendations on this site) can help me figure all this out. That's a month away though. I'll do the best I can until then.

Quote:
Generally cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols onto dripping wet hair will help the canopy clump, it's difficult for many of us to use too much leave in conditioner on dry or damaged hair.
So, leaving conditioner in is usually not a problem as long as I don't put it on my scalp which could weigh my crown down. I think that's what it said in the CG book. I don't know what cationic surfactants or fatty alcohols are.

I'm excited to figure this all out.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:59 AM   #4
 
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Useful information, thanks.

'Cradle cap' is seborrhoeic dermatitis, that can occur on the scalp and/ or the face. Definitely avoid all sulphate surfactants because they thin and dehydrate the skin at concentrations as low as 1% - note that they are hidden in commercial toothpaste, aqueous cream and box dye. Also avoid all natural oils rich in oleic acid, stearic acid or palmitic acid, that is most plant oils.

The only sulphate free shampoo that might work for SD I know of is Regenepure which contains the anti fungal ketoconazole (same active as Nizoral but hopefully without the harshness). Definitely consider the pH of all skincare and haircare products, the acid mantle/ skin flora help controlling populations of the 'bad guys'.
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Is your diet angled towards anti inflammatory foods, are you eating plenty of oily fish? Home cooked is brilliant but that can still be pro inflammatory and high glycaemic index. You might ask your doctor about freeze dried priobiotic capsules - beneficial bacteria in the gut - especially if you have had any digestive issues (!) or antibiotics.

Throw the brush in the trash because it causes mechanical damage even on dry hair and we do tend to over brush the parts we can see most like the canopy. Research suggests with brushing dry hair the damage and breakage is closer to the ends instead of mid shaft splits as when brushing damp/ wet hair. Instead detangle with fingers only or a very wide tooth comb: CG recommends only detangling when hair is soaking wet and slathered in piles of a slippy conditioner.

You may not need chelating but it won't do any harm as some are amazed by the results, you can purchase a sulphate free chelating/ swimmers shampoo or sachet product such as ION. Definitely try washing your hair in cooler water, maybe use a shower cap part of the time if you prefer showering your body in hot water.

Do read through the stickies on this board and the general haircare board, if you get time start reading the 'curl chemist' articles on the main NC site and the Natural Haven blog, also the information on hair properties Live Curly Live Free.

HTH!
__________________
2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG, growing out mechanical and chemical damage = breakage and very high porosity. Past armpit length heading for waist.

CO-wash: Inecto coconut
Treatments: Komaza Matani, coconut oil, Hairveda Sitrinillah
Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss ultimate volume, Inecto argan
Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Boots Essentials gel
Experimenting with: going back to basics
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Old 07-04-2013, 01:43 PM   #5
 
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I grew my hair out long for several years before cutting it recently to go CG, so I know something about keeping hair in good condition, but even with that learning all the curly information is a little daunting. I would start simply, by COing and using a light gel, or even just COing. You can CO daily if you need to in order to keep greasies at bay. Give yourself several weeks so that your hair can become better moisturized and you can start seeing the natural shape of your hair. Keep reading while you're doing it. Then you can start adding in leave ins, gel (if you haven't already), etc.

Some people with curly hair don't need gel or much product in their hair. Mine is fine and floaty without it, so if I don't use gel it's wild within a couple of hours. You'll learn as you go along what you need and how much. You also might want to check the Frizz Factor page daily to see what the local dew point is, because that can also affect what products you use.

If you start simply, you won't get so confused. BTW, love your user name!
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Wash: CJ Daily Fix, As I Am, TJs TTT
RO: YTB
LI: Suave TC + CJ CCCC, brushed through with Denman
Styling: Smooth in LAL Wet Look gel, scrunch, and plop 10 minutes, then add a little more gel, cover with silk cap, and sleep on it
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:09 PM   #6
 
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We do use probiotics and we eat fermented foods. My kids love kefir. I've been cutting out sugar so now I buy plain kefir and add stevia or fresh fruit. We eat fish 2x weekly usually salmon.

Right now my son is using Nature's Gate baby shampoo (he was using Head and Shoulders) and Paula's Choice Earth Sourced cleansing gel along with a green tea/acv rinse I make. Is this shampoo good for his scalp?

The biggest difference I've seen in the rash on his face was eliminating nuts from his diet.

I just got done co-washing with Garnier Fructis Pure and Clean conditioner. I kept the water luke warm, held my hair with my hands to support it, and used a TON of conditioner. I was trying to comb my hair with my fingers and my hair was so tangled. I had to use a lot and I mean a lot of conditioner to get the tangles out. It was crazy. My hair always tangles and knots. Is this a sign of dryness?

I did rinse out all the conditioner. I'll experiment with rinsing it all out and leaving some in. So today I rinsed it all out. Then I put in gel while my hair was still drippy wet. Then I plopped it. I think I did it correctly. Left it up for about 30 minutes.

I now have lots of curl, but I have a very fine top layer of frizzies sticking up everywhere. I live in the southeastern US, and it is rainy right now. Is this why I have frizzies? Although I always have frizzies. Always. Again, I live in a very humid state.

More gel? Leave in conditioner? Something else?

I have been reading links, blogs, articles, and watching videos. I'm learning and trying to keep everything straight.

I have been reading all the links and articles. My eyes were blurry last night.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:16 PM   #7
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CurlyInTheFog View Post
I grew my hair out long for several years before cutting it recently to go CG, so I know something about keeping hair in good condition, but even with that learning all the curly information is a little daunting. I would start simply, by COing and using a light gel, or even just COing. You can CO daily if you need to in order to keep greasies at bay. Give yourself several weeks so that your hair can become better moisturized and you can start seeing the natural shape of your hair. Keep reading while you're doing it. Then you can start adding in leave ins, gel (if you haven't already), etc.

Some people with curly hair don't need gel or much product in their hair. Mine is fine and floaty without it, so if I don't use gel it's wild within a couple of hours. You'll learn as you go along what you need and how much. You also might want to check the Frizz Factor page daily to see what the local dew point is, because that can also affect what products you use.

If you start simply, you won't get so confused. BTW, love your user name!
Thanks! I'm sure my dh would say my user name fits me well.

Part of my problem is that I'm impatient. I want perfect hair.....yesterday! I'm so tired of not liking my hair and denying my curl because I can't get it right. I've asked so many stylists and all of them....all of them.....told me I can't wear m y hair curly because of my mixed texture and the straightness of my top layer. Well, a few of them suggested I perm the top layer. I never wanted to do that so they said I had to blow it straight then.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:35 PM   #8
 
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Oops, sorry, messed up my edit. Full post is below.
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Wash: CJ Daily Fix, As I Am, TJs TTT
RO: YTB
LI: Suave TC + CJ CCCC, brushed through with Denman
Styling: Smooth in LAL Wet Look gel, scrunch, and plop 10 minutes, then add a little more gel, cover with silk cap, and sleep on it
Refresh: 3:1 water/Suave mix as needed

Last edited by CurlyInTheFog; 07-05-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 07-04-2013, 04:41 PM   #9
 
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I'm impatient, too. It's hard for me to be methodical about trying out products. I tend to want to try out too many new things at once, but it really is better to take things slowly until you have an idea of what you're doing.

Frizz is a challenge. We don't normally have high dews here, but we do have a lot of wind, so I have to use hard holding gel and I'm still learning how much to use. In high dews, you'll probably want to avoid glycerin and maybe do some protein treatments. I don't know if you have a diffuser, but you'll want to learn how to do that, too. Look up pixie curl diffusing--it took me a while to get the hang of it, but it's very effective for preventing frizz while drying. If you can air dry, that's fine as well, but due to wind and how long my hair takes to dry, I have to at least partially diffuse.

Clarify as you need to. If you don't need to, don't do it. If you have hard water, well water, etc., chelate if you need to. I have hard well water, but rarely clarify or chelate. I do regular weak citric acid rinses instead, and those seem to do the trick because I seldom have an issue with my hair feeling like it has buildup.

I wouldn't be surprised if your outer layer becomes curly over time as it becomes more moisturized. Give it a few weeks and see.
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3a/b, fine, normal porosity, high density

Wash: CJ Daily Fix, As I Am, TJs TTT
RO: YTB
LI: Suave TC + CJ CCCC, brushed through with Denman
Styling: Smooth in LAL Wet Look gel, scrunch, and plop 10 minutes, then add a little more gel, cover with silk cap, and sleep on it
Refresh: 3:1 water/Suave mix as needed
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:06 AM   #10
 
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You're at the point were it's important to read and learn (which you seem to be doing.) Looks like your trying to discover your hair properties. Here's a link to help Curly Hair Basics | Live Curly Live Free When you talk about different textures of hair, I think you're really meaning different types of curls--wavy, curly, etc. While folks refer to curly hair as "textured," around here texture means fine, normal or coarse (the width of the individual hairs.) As far as porosity goes, the float test is notoriously unreliable. You want to go from tip to root on clean hair. If it slides (and possibly squeaks), it's low porosity. Minimal bumps is normal. Bumpy is porous. Another indicator is drying time. When I worked, I'd shower at 6, diffuse and not use product. Around 11:30, it wasn't unusual for my hair to still be damp--my hair is low porosity. If your hair dries quickly, it's porous. Just a few hours, it's normal.

It's typical for the canopy of the hair to be different then the under layers. It's exposed to the elements, so can be more "damaged" then the rest of your hair. Needs to be treated with lots of TLC.

Tangling is another issue. My low porosity hair only tangles if I use an ingredient it doesn't like. More porous hair (cuticle is raised or damaged), tangles more. It can also be an indicator that it's time for a hair cut. If you really can't finger comb, use a wide tooth comb when your hair is wet and full of conditioner.

Frizz can be caused by a lot of things. It can be indicative of lack of moisture and/or protein. Determining your hair properties will be helpful to identify the ingredients/products you should be using. Right now, it's pretty humid in most of the US. I live outside of Philly and our dewpoints have been in the 70's all week and will continue that way for another week. I need to be sure to use a lot of protein (my hair loves it), "seal" by using a rich leave in (my hair doesn't like straight oil/butter) and top off with a "jelly" product (I stay away from the chemicals in most gels.) It's all about keeping the protein/moisture balanced and learning what your hair likes.
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Old 07-05-2013, 07:22 AM   #11
 
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Based on your description of your hair I was thinking a half up half down style would be the best way to go? If the top of your hair just wont sit the way you want it too then just chuck it up in a ponny, and let all your pretty curls make a statement.


http://greathairideas.com/wp-content...g-fivuo7ad.jpg
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Old 07-05-2013, 03:24 PM   #12
 
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I believe my hair is low porosity. I don't feel any bumps and it squeaks when I slide my fingers up it.

So this means
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:13 PM   #13
 
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I did a protein treatment yesterday and today have a lot less frizz than earlier in the week, but then ours dews are coming back down too. I agree that improving the overall condition of your hair (moisture/protein) and understanding properties will help a great deal. I just sent in for a hair analysis, so I'm curious to see what it says about porosity. I'm guessing it's normal based on my sliding test, but it sure seems to take forever to dry!
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3a/b, fine, normal porosity, high density

Wash: CJ Daily Fix, As I Am, TJs TTT
RO: YTB
LI: Suave TC + CJ CCCC, brushed through with Denman
Styling: Smooth in LAL Wet Look gel, scrunch, and plop 10 minutes, then add a little more gel, cover with silk cap, and sleep on it
Refresh: 3:1 water/Suave mix as needed
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:21 PM   #14
 
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Yesterday, I was out of the shower around 2:45 and my hair was still damp at 6.

I didn't co-wash yesterday. I just used water and scrubbed my scalp really well. I put zero product in my hair after getting out of the shower. I just let it dry. My hair is really curly, however it looks wet. It's not wet. It looks wet and like I have a ton of gel in it.

I did buy some sulfate free shampoo today. I'll try that tomorrow and see how my hair is after drying.

This is going to be a long month.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:30 PM   #15
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleinehexe View Post
Yesterday, I was out of the shower around 2:45 and my hair was still damp at 6.

I didn't co-wash yesterday. I just used water and scrubbed my scalp really well. I put zero product in my hair after getting out of the shower. I just let it dry. My hair is really curly, however it looks wet. It's not wet. It looks wet and like I have a ton of gel in it.

I did buy some sulfate free shampoo today. I'll try that tomorrow and see how my hair is after drying.

This is going to be a long month.
If your hair looks wet and like you have a ton of gel in it--you're using products that aren't water soluble or that build up on you. I have low porosity hair and have to be careful about amount of product and ingredients. Straight oil/butter usually sits on my hair and doesn't absorb. SM Coconut & Hibiscus products just sit on my hair and need to be washed out.
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modified CG, since April '07
CG since 3/11/08

SE PA

HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Marie Dean Leave Ins and Curl Creams
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