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Old 12-09-2010, 06:18 PM   #81
 
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uh, as my one friend always likes to say when someone insults her. "she ain't talking to me."

But seriously, I don't think she was calling any of us stupid, I think she just generalized and asked if Americans were really that stupid. And she didn't even say Americans were stupid, she asked if they were. I still don't see why everyone's so upset with her.
Do you think you're stupid? I don't think I'm stupid(I do have "blonde" moments....frequently), so I wasn't insulted.

I'm American, and I've been around other Americans, and yes lots of Americans are stupid. There are also lots of smart ones, but they don't show off their smarts, its usually the stupid ones that show off... being stupid.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:20 PM   #82
 
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uh, as my one friend always likes to say when someone insults her. "she ain't talking to me."

But seriously, I don't think she was calling any of us stupid, I think she just generalized and asked if Americans were really that stupid. And she didn't even say Americans were stupid, she asked if they were. I still don't see why everyone's so upset with her.
I think if that were true, the response would be something like:

"Oh, I'm sorry, I really didn't mean it like that! Not at all!" etc.

Not all this other B.S. we're getting.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:23 PM   #83
 
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Finally, sarasara, are you still in Japan? I ask because this sort of inquiry/rant is not uncharactersitic when you're experiencing culture shock. Just saying this after reading some of your thoughts on Japan.


Yup, I'm still in Japan! I'm not sure I can say I'm still having a culture shock though (if culture shocks are only considered negative). Although I am going through a phase where I'm starting to see Japan as the most perfect place on Earth, that everyone here is an angel and that bad things just don't happen when Japanese people are involved. Obviously that's not completely true but right now in the midst of it all I believes it applies to Japan more than anywhere else I've been to. I might change my mind as I stay longer or I might never will, as I've seen some foreigners who have lived here for a very long time yet seem to be still in love with Japan in the same way.

FYI, that is part of the culture shock cycle, it's the honeymoon period.
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Old 12-09-2010, 06:26 PM   #84
 
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I feel like people in other countries hold us accountable for **** our government does because we're constantly going on and on about how great our ideals are (specifically, democracy, the republic, voting, elections, freedom to the nth power). To an extent, we ARE accountable. We vote these *******s in or sit passively by and don't vote. We seem to be content to let our government do whatever as long as we have minimal taxes and can do whatever we want when we want. LOL
Agree. I am not American, and when I go off on my (American) friends about hating America it usually has something to do with a policy. However, chances are I will never meet Obama or Bush to ask them about it, so my friend takes their place (as a voter and citizen of America). Granted they are very relaxed about stuff and are able to adequately explain how they feel about things vs how they are represented by the government.
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Old 12-09-2010, 07:00 PM   #85
 
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Originally Posted by turtles View Post
uh, as my one friend always likes to say when someone insults her. "she ain't talking to me."

But seriously, I don't think she was calling any of us stupid, I think she just generalized and asked if Americans were really that stupid. And she didn't even say Americans were stupid, she asked if they were. I still don't see why everyone's so upset with her.
I think if that were true, the response would be something like:

"Oh, I'm sorry, I really didn't mean it like that! Not at all!" etc.

Not all this other B.S. we're getting.

You're not going to get that response from me. I'm ready to admit my mistakes, but not to apologize for someone's own shortcomings (i.e: your lack of understanding). I mentioned that earlier, where I again explained what I meant by my post. If you understood my post correctly yet you were still offended, then maybe the problem is with you.


"Not all this other B.S" you're getting. That long post where I articulated everything out for you (#59) which you consider B.S. is a valid point of view by someone from another side of the world. It is a view that many people here share. It's probably not information you heard straight out from an Arab before as your exposure to full Arabs/Muslim (not American Arabs/not converts to Islam) is probably limited. However, you are not worthy of such information. That's why bad media exists in the US,it caters to people such as yourself.


Turtles-Thanks for actually understanding my post...

I've seen this type of responses from Arabs too when I've said negative things about us. Granted, I've said much more negative things about Arabs than I do about any other country, since I'm Arab myself. But, anyway, I'm somewhat used to those type of responses. They didn't shock me. They only shocked me because they were coming from Americans who I thought would be more liberal in their thinking than Arabs who get offended about anything negative said about them, even if it were completely true.

But come to think of it, even Arabs discuss this backwardness we have more openly somtimes. There are even famous quotes said by Arabs which are considered offensive to Arabs such as: Arabs are a disease.

To both sides' dismay, I think I realized that Americans and Arabs are more similar than they appear to be.
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Old 12-09-2010, 10:33 PM   #86
 
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Originally Posted by kayb View Post
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Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
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Finally, sarasara, are you still in Japan? I ask because this sort of inquiry/rant is not uncharactersitic when you're experiencing culture shock. Just saying this after reading some of your thoughts on Japan.


Yup, I'm still in Japan! I'm not sure I can say I'm still having a culture shock though (if culture shocks are only considered negative). Although I am going through a phase where I'm starting to see Japan as the most perfect place on Earth, that everyone here is an angel and that bad things just don't happen when Japanese people are involved. Obviously that's not completely true but right now in the midst of it all I believes it applies to Japan more than anywhere else I've been to. I might change my mind as I stay longer or I might never will, as I've seen some foreigners who have lived here for a very long time yet seem to be still in love with Japan in the same way.

FYI, that is part of the culture shock cycle, it's the honeymoon period.
Yup. Been there! lol
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:21 PM   #87
 
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Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
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Originally Posted by wild~hair View Post
I think if that were true, the response would be something like:

"Oh, I'm sorry, I really didn't mean it like that! Not at all!" etc.

Not all this other B.S. we're getting.
You're not going to get that response from me. I'm ready to admit my mistakes, but not to apologize for someone's own shortcomings (i.e: your lack of understanding). I mentioned that earlier, where I again explained what I meant by my post. If you understood my post correctly yet you were still offended, then maybe the problem is with you.


"Not all this other B.S" you're getting. That long post where I articulated everything out for you (#59) which you consider B.S. is a valid point of view by someone from another side of the world.
I don't consider post #59 B.S. I actually said the exact opposite about it:

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Originally Posted by wild~hair View Post
I think a lot of what sarasara said in post #59 has relevance. Of course it does. But her approach could use some … refinement.
sarasara, I don't know what's going on with you personally right now. But you're taking it out on those of us participating in this thread for some reason. None of us deserve it, frankly. And that's the B.S. that I'm referring to.

The honeymoon period of culture shock is a well established phenomenon, so maybe this does have something to do with that. I know I went through it when I was an exchange student at 16, as did my sister and both of my best friends. We all lived for extensive periods in other countries when we were in high school and college.

One starts out homesick, then begins to idealize the culture and thinks it's the answer to everything. Then reality hits home and one actually reaches a bit of an emotional nadir, where the less favorable aspects of the culture really start to grate. Then things start to level out and ones sees things a bit more realistically, with an appreciation for the pros and cons, which every culture has, of course.

Maybe all that is part of what you're going through emotionally right now. Who knows? What's really silly is to take it out on those around you. Part of growing up means taking responsibility for your inner world and talking about it with friends and family rather than lashing out at strangers, IRL or online.

Bottom line, you have a lot to say and contribute, because of your cultural and ethnic background, which is unique to this board. I personally really value your POV. But not when it's presented as though all of us are a bunch of ****ing idiots not worth the effort. Nobody likes being treated like that.

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Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
It's probably not information you heard straight out from an Arab before as your exposure to full Arabs/Muslim (not American Arabs/not converts to Islam) is probably limited. However, you are not worthy of such information. That's why bad media exists in the US,it caters to people such as yourself.
I'll be the judge of that, thanks.

I don't own a T.V. or subscribe to any major newspapers. So I don't know what "bad media" I'm receiving to which you're referring. Or indeed how you would know what kind of media I'm getting at all, seeing as you don't know me at all outside of the scant information on these boards.

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Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
To both sides' dismay, I think I realized that Americans and Arabs are more similar than they appear to be.
I'm not dismayed to find that we are more similar than not. In fact, I hold it to be a universal truth. You seem to be the one hell-bent on outlining and emphasizing our differences, if anything.

I hope you start feeling better about things. And I [selfishly] hope you stop taking your bad feelings out on the rest of us!
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Old 12-10-2010, 06:09 PM   #88
 
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Thank you wild~hair, well said.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:19 PM   #89
 
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The honeymoon period of culture shock is a well established phenomenon, so maybe this does have something to do with that. I know I went through it when I was an exchange student at 16, as did my sister and both of my best friends. We all lived for extensive periods in other countries when we were in high school and college.

One starts out homesick, then begins to idealize the culture and thinks it's the answer to everything. Then reality hits home and one actually reaches a bit of an emotional nadir, where the less favorable aspects of the culture really start to grate. Then things start to level out and ones sees things a bit more realistically, with an appreciation for the pros and cons, which every culture has, of course.

Maybe all that is part of what you're going through emotionally right now. Who knows? What's really silly is to take it out on those around you. Part of growing up means taking responsibility for your inner world and talking about it with friends and family rather than lashing out at strangers, IRL or online.

Bottom line, you have a lot to say and contribute, because of your cultural and ethnic background, which is unique to this board. I personally really value your POV. But not when it's presented as though all of us are a bunch of ****ing idiots not worth the effort. Nobody likes being treated like that.


Yes, I may be going through a honeymood period but what I said in my first post and post #59 is not something new. I always wanted the US to leave other countries alone and mind its own business. No, I don't want it to help. Lately, it hardly ever does. I'm not good at history, so I won't say in its history it never has. But it has not lately, and I just want it to leave us alone. That's something I always wanted. It's not new. I don't think the US is "damned if they do and damned if they don't" as so many people whine. Everyone gets criticism, there are 370 dislikes on Youtube for Beethoven's Ode to Joy-and that's a prety peaceful piece of art.


No, I think going to Japan made me realize that there are people who don't know much about the world anywhere. And it made me realize the difference in reactions. The way generally (YES IM GENERALIZING) Arabs and Americans are self-righteous, and the Japanese are apologetic. It's in the culture. Apologetic, for say, not knowing where a country is. The impression I got so far in Japan is "I'm sorry I don't know this. I'm sorry I sound "stupid."

The general impression I seem to be getting from Americans is "No, why should I know!!! I don't need to know!! There are plenty of people who don't know this stuff in all parts of the world!! Why are you pointing fingers at me!!!" (Also general impression from Arabs is the same).

Ya, its in this board as well, with people pointing fingers at stupid people all over the world, stupid people who don't affect me and are minding their own business. Why the **** should I care about stupid people in Switzerland or Netherlands when they're not doing me any harm.

That's not it either. MANY Americans don't know about the miseries that's going on in other parts of the world that THEIR COUNTRY HAS CAUSED (or else they don't care which is worse).

Do you know about the Israelie occupiers whom the US (George Bush) supported??? Do you know the genocides (which of course will not be labeled as genocides as it will give it too much importance, and who cares about those people anyway? Plus then it will show what a monster Bush is) that Bush gave permission for Israelies to do? Did people really try to stop that? No. It's a free country, you have democracy and rights, you can do something about it. But lets guess how many people didn't (didn't even go to protest, didn't even care). Sorry, talking about how bad George Bush while you're watching TV doesn't help anyone.

Did you care when Israel was throwing its rockets and bombs everyday at people. Did you care when babies were blown into pieces? Did you care when women had to look in the floor, searching for her babies blown up parts? No, most Americans didn't care. And btw, this is a very, very frequent situation in the Middle East. So many of which the US supported (oh ya, its giving this fake deadline for Israelies settlers to get out of occupied lands...A fake deadline is a progress from George Bush's direct approval and support for Israel).

So, I'll either assume you don't know much about the disasters your country is causing, or you know and don't care. I'm not sure which is worse.

And what about the Iraqi people's state? Why doesn't anyone talk about them? Are they less human than American soldiers, who are all people talk about?

Which gets me to another question. And you will attack me for this. But its what everyone outside thinks (at least in the Middle East). And maybe you could learn something from that. Seeing how other people view you and why. I'm aware people view me as a terrorist. And I know why. Do you KNOW why people view you that way?

If you are against the war, why would you go fight in it? Will they tie you down and torture you if you don't go fight a war you don't believe in? If you don't believe in the war, how are "you serving your country" by going and killing people you don't believe should be killed? I don't understand this worshipping of soldiers that is common in the US. Especially if soldiers won't get shot in the head for not going and killing other people. No wait, I wouldn't get that either. Try to step out from your shoes and don't tell me "AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE THE BRAVEST AND THEY ARE KEEPING OUR COUNTRY SAFE."


Ya, I don't think anyone involved in supporting this war is keeping your country anyway near safe. Ya, you don't like that. But if I'm missing something here, someone explain it to me. And, if no one can really explain it to me, then maybe you should start thinking about the poor Iraqis your country is hurting instead of just focusing on your soldiers. It's funny how the US will not leave anyone alone and will not mind its own business. Until that is, it hurts those people and leaves them in a terrible state. That's when they decided to mind their own business and "leave iraq." Sorry. let me amend that. It's not FUNNY.


The world is going through a lot of **** that the US has caused, yet we still only hear about 9/11. Yes, 9/11 was tragic. It was horrible. And the same terrorism happens all over the world today. Fine, you don't have to care about the other parts of the world you're not affecting (I don't know if there are parts of the world the US is not affecting, but let's just say). But maybe you should start caring about the negative impacts that your country is doing in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan...etc.

I was checking a human rights website the other day, and the first page of the website was all about getting the 9/11 trials to happen in New York. There was a whole video (ad?) for it on the page. Human rights issues such as people being killed and tortured were all squeezed somewhere else together. But the pressing human rights issue was getting the trial to take place in some specific state. Really??! That's what the pressing issues are now?


Yes, 9/11 was tragic, but your country is causing a lot of tragedies around the world. Maybe you (general you) should start caring about them as much as caring in which state a trial will take place.

Anyway, back to Japan.

Seeing as Arabs are the same, I didn't know civilized people exist. Going to Japan made me realize civilized people do exist, so its possible for other humans to be the same.



Oh, and when I made the similarity between Arabs and Americans, I wasn't talking about the universal human factors such as laughing or crying. I was talking about the similarities of intolerance and self-reighteousness (in the people, not governments). Which, yes, is a dismay to both sides.
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Old 12-10-2010, 11:41 PM   #90
 
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Whoa. Are you reading what people are writing? THEY GET YOUR POINT! They are just angry that you are assuming they think this way as well.

I get your angry and you may be speaking in a general you type sense, but it seems personally attacking to some here.

Many Americans don't support this war. Many have protested from DAY 1. Many realize that it's not all about us and look at ALL the lives lost as a tragedy. People do what they can from casting their vote, writing their representatives, speaking out, protesting, and doing what they feel is right. Many of those, like me, still support our soldiers because they have to go where they are sent. They don't have a choice, they can't say no. They made a commitment when they signed those papers and they honor it. For that they deserve the support. I would just prefer that they not be asked to do that job in the first place.

Japan is a close ally of the US and supports them in many ways, including non-combat troops in Iraq in 2006-08 and maintaining refueling stations in the Indian Ocean and they are the third largest provider of international aid in the world. Japan's constitution prohibits them from declaring war as a way to settle their disputes and was adopted in 1947 during the US occupation of Japan following WWII (a war which we were trying not to be militarily involved in) in which Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor after leading militaristic expansions in Manchuria and other parts of mainland Asia.

I'm glad you're finding Japan a great place to be, it's wonderful. People are recognizing the good points you are making, and you have brought up some very good points. You just sound so defensive about it when others got just as defensive about their own country.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:33 AM   #91
 
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Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
Quote:
The honeymoon period of culture shock is a well established phenomenon, so maybe this does have something to do with that. I know I went through it when I was an exchange student at 16, as did my sister and both of my best friends. We all lived for extensive periods in other countries when we were in high school and college.

One starts out homesick, then begins to idealize the culture and thinks it's the answer to everything. Then reality hits home and one actually reaches a bit of an emotional nadir, where the less favorable aspects of the culture really start to grate. Then things start to level out and ones sees things a bit more realistically, with an appreciation for the pros and cons, which every culture has, of course.

Maybe all that is part of what you're going through emotionally right now. Who knows? What's really silly is to take it out on those around you. Part of growing up means taking responsibility for your inner world and talking about it with friends and family rather than lashing out at strangers, IRL or online.

Bottom line, you have a lot to say and contribute, because of your cultural and ethnic background, which is unique to this board. I personally really value your POV. But not when it's presented as though all of us are a bunch of ****ing idiots not worth the effort. Nobody likes being treated like that.


Yes, I may be going through a honeymood period but what I said in my first post and post #59 is not something new. I always wanted the US to leave other countries alone and mind its own business. No, I don't want it to help. Lately, it hardly ever does. I'm not good at history, so I won't say in its history it never has. But it has not lately, and I just want it to leave us alone. That's something I always wanted. It's not new. I don't think the US is "damned if they do and damned if they don't" as so many people whine. Everyone gets criticism, there are 370 dislikes on Youtube for Beethoven's Ode to Joy-and that's a prety peaceful piece of art.


No, I think going to Japan made me realize that there are people who don't know much about the world anywhere. And it made me realize the difference in reactions. The way generally (YES IM GENERALIZING) Arabs and Americans are self-righteous, and the Japanese are apologetic. It's in the culture. Apologetic, for say, not knowing where a country is. The impression I got so far in Japan is "I'm sorry I don't know this. I'm sorry I sound "stupid."

The general impression I seem to be getting from Americans is "No, why should I know!!! I don't need to know!! There are plenty of people who don't know this stuff in all parts of the world!! Why are you pointing fingers at me!!!" (Also general impression from Arabs is the same).

Ya, its in this board as well, with people pointing fingers at stupid people all over the world, stupid people who don't affect me and are minding their own business. Why the **** should I care about stupid people in Switzerland or Netherlands when they're not doing me any harm.

That's not it either. MANY Americans don't know about the miseries that's going on in other parts of the world that THEIR COUNTRY HAS CAUSED (or else they don't care which is worse).

Do you know about the Israelie occupiers whom the US (George Bush) supported??? Do you know the genocides (which of course will not be labeled as genocides as it will give it too much importance, and who cares about those people anyway? Plus then it will show what a monster Bush is) that Bush gave permission for Israelies to do? Did people really try to stop that? No. It's a free country, you have democracy and rights, you can do something about it. But lets guess how many people didn't (didn't even go to protest, didn't even care). Sorry, talking about how bad George Bush while you're watching TV doesn't help anyone.

Did you care when Israel was throwing its rockets and bombs everyday at people. Did you care when babies were blown into pieces? Did you care when women had to look in the floor, searching for her babies blown up parts? No, most Americans didn't care. And btw, this is a very, very frequent situation in the Middle East. So many of which the US supported (oh ya, its giving this fake deadline for Israelies settlers to get out of occupied lands...A fake deadline is a progress from George Bush's direct approval and support for Israel).

So, I'll either assume you don't know much about the disasters your country is causing, or you know and don't care. I'm not sure which is worse.

And what about the Iraqi people's state? Why doesn't anyone talk about them? Are they less human than American soldiers, who are all people talk about?

Which gets me to another question. And you will attack me for this. But its what everyone outside thinks (at least in the Middle East). And maybe you could learn something from that. Seeing how other people view you and why. I'm aware people view me as a terrorist. And I know why. Do you KNOW why people view you that way?

If you are against the war, why would you go fight in it? Will they tie you down and torture you if you don't go fight a war you don't believe in? If you don't believe in the war, how are "you serving your country" by going and killing people you don't believe should be killed? I don't understand this worshipping of soldiers that is common in the US. Especially if soldiers won't get shot in the head for not going and killing other people. No wait, I wouldn't get that either. Try to step out from your shoes and don't tell me "AMERICAN SOLDIERS ARE THE BRAVEST AND THEY ARE KEEPING OUR COUNTRY SAFE."


Ya, I don't think anyone involved in supporting this war is keeping your country anyway near safe. Ya, you don't like that. But if I'm missing something here, someone explain it to me. And, if no one can really explain it to me, then maybe you should start thinking about the poor Iraqis your country is hurting instead of just focusing on your soldiers. It's funny how the US will not leave anyone alone and will not mind its own business. Until that is, it hurts those people and leaves them in a terrible state. That's when they decided to mind their own business and "leave iraq." Sorry. let me amend that. It's not FUNNY.


The world is going through a lot of **** that the US has caused, yet we still only hear about 9/11. Yes, 9/11 was tragic. It was horrible. And the same terrorism happens all over the world today. Fine, you don't have to care about the other parts of the world you're not affecting (I don't know if there are parts of the world the US is not affecting, but let's just say). But maybe you should start caring about the negative impacts that your country is doing in Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan...etc.

I was checking a human rights website the other day, and the first page of the website was all about getting the 9/11 trials to happen in New York. There was a whole video (ad?) for it on the page. Human rights issues such as people being killed and tortured were all squeezed somewhere else together. But the pressing human rights issue was getting the trial to take place in some specific state. Really??! That's what the pressing issues are now?


Yes, 9/11 was tragic, but your country is causing a lot of tragedies around the world. Maybe you (general you) should start caring about them as much as caring in which state a trial will take place.

Anyway, back to Japan.

Seeing as Arabs are the same, I didn't know civilized people exist. Going to Japan made me realize civilized people do exist, so its possible for other humans to be the same.



Oh, and when I made the similarity between Arabs and Americans, I wasn't talking about the universal human factors such as laughing or crying. I was talking about the similarities of intolerance and self-reighteousness (in the people, not governments). Which, yes, is a dismay to both sides.

Quoted should you decide to delete this later.
Jeez, I'm not even American really and I'm kind of offended by this post. Aside from the pissy tone with which you're trying to basically educate people here, it's clear just how much the media has gotten to you. You're not too far from straight up labeling the US an evil superpower and frankly, this whole post is dripping with hate towards all Americans, people you ultimately, living in a completely different part of the world, know nothing about. And you want to talk about tolerance?
Good grief!
And you mentioned how in Japan people are also ignorant, knowing only Japanese and mostly all things Japan. So to meet your lofty ideals of intelligence people need to speak another language and know every single thing about every part of the world?
I sure hope nobody is ever as harsh as you, or you could very well be labeled stupid for your academic failings.
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:41 AM   #92
 
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Whoa. Are you reading what people are writing? THEY GET YOUR POINT! They are just angry that you are assuming they think this way as well.

I get your angry and you may be speaking in a general you type sense, but it seems personally attacking to some here.

Many Americans don't support this war. Many have protested from DAY 1. Many realize that it's not all about us and look at ALL the lives lost as a tragedy. People do what they can from casting their vote, writing their representatives, speaking out, protesting, and doing what they feel is right. Many of those, like me, still support our soldiers because they have to go where they are sent. They don't have a choice, they can't say no. They made a commitment when they signed those papers and they honor it. For that they deserve the support. I would just prefer that they not be asked to do that job in the first place.

Japan is a close ally of the US and supports them in many ways, including non-combat troops in Iraq in 2006-08 and maintaining refueling stations in the Indian Ocean and they are the third largest provider of international aid in the world. Japan's constitution prohibits them from declaring war as a way to settle their disputes and was adopted in 1947 during the US occupation of Japan following WWII (a war which we were trying not to be militarily involved in) in which Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor after leading militaristic expansions in Manchuria and other parts of mainland Asia.

I'm glad you're finding Japan a great place to be, it's wonderful. People are recognizing the good points you are making, and you have brought up some very good points. You just sound so defensive about it when others got just as defensive about their own country.

I didn't mean anything personally to anyone here. I use this way of talking when I talk to Arabs about our failures and our own stupidity. And no Saria, I don't hate Arabs, I'm Arab myself.


Quote:
And you mentioned how in Japan people are also ignorant, knowing only Japanese and mostly all things Japan. So to meet your lofty ideals of intelligence people need to speak another language and know every single thing about every part of the world?
Do you skip lines when you read? There are people who don't know about other parts of the world everywhere. My point was the difference in reactions I've found. It's not really that bad, imo, if you don't know how many sides a triangle has. It's bad when you don't and you can vote who president of the world is. It's bad when you want to start a war on a country you don't know, that's what bad.

Oh, and Japanese people don't need to learn a language. Ya, its a good plus, but they don't need it. If I was Japanese, I wouldn't want to learn anything else other than anything Japanese. I haven't seen many things Japan can learn from other countries, but I've seen so many things people could learn from the Japanese. Yes, I'm aware they have one of the highest suicide rates and they are always working from day to night. And there are some few perverts. I think those are the only negatives I can name. I have not seen such a respectful nation and people.


I'm not sure how soldiers have no choice. I'm pretty sure there's some philosophocal and analytical process and thought that goes behind that, some of which include that comitmments that are evil need not be "honored."


And no Saria, I don't hate Americans. My sister married an American and I'm so happy she did. I always think of the difference between him and an Arab brother-in-law. He's the sweetest person I met. Arab men are digusting and I really dislike them (That's my opinion. It can't be wrong or right). I think I'm allowed to be "racist" towards my own race, right?

Last edited by sarasara; 12-11-2010 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 12-11-2010, 06:58 AM   #93
 
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I'll just tackle the soldier thing, I meant once they are a soldier it's very difficult to leave before their enlistment is up for other than medical reasons. Prior to this war, and even after it started, many joined the military to further and pay for their education, as a way to help dig themselves out of their current situations, to benefit their families, as a way to see the world, and for a myriad of other reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to wage war. For a lot of poor and lower income families, the military is seen as a way to get out of that cycle, to pay for school and sometimes some see it as the only option.

Once they are there, they are committed and have sworn to follow where their commanders (and the President is the Commander in Chief) choose to send them. Only senior officers have much say in where they go.

In order for them to leave they'd have to try and secure a discharge and saying "I don't agree with our reasons for fighting." is not an acceptable reason to be discharged according to the top brass. I know a lot of military people, my brother is a Marine who just came back from Afghanistan. They take their oath very seriously. Do they want to be there? No my brother would have been much happier to be home with his family hunting, fishing, laughing.

There are some who have found ways to stay out of direct conflict though but it's hard and some have limited resources to do so.

People also support them despite what they are fighting for because the ones who are coming back are not given the amount of services they need. Many have PTSD or other emotional, psychological, and even physical scarring from their service and can't get the help they need. Our own government is failing them when they return. MANY our outraged by that and are trying to take steps to fix it.
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:04 PM   #94
 
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Whoa. Are you reading what people are writing? THEY GET YOUR POINT! They are just angry that you are assuming they think this way as well.

I get your angry and you may be speaking in a general you type sense, but it seems personally attacking to some here.

Many Americans don't support this war. Many have protested from DAY 1. Many realize that it's not all about us and look at ALL the lives lost as a tragedy.
Exactly. I did protest, literally in the streets, against the war in Iraq.

Americans are not monolithic, but try to tell sarasara that is like talking to a brick wall. She also apparently thinks her own people are equally monolithic. Maybe someday she'll realize how wrong she is on all counts.

Meanwhile, I know when to stop because I'm not being heard. That would be now.
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:05 AM   #95
 
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Exactly. I did protest, literally in the streets, against the war in Iraq.

Americans are not monolithic, but try to tell sarasara that is like talking to a brick wall. She also apparently thinks her own people are equally monolithic. Maybe someday she'll realize how wrong she is on all counts.

Meanwhile, I know when to stop because I'm not being heard. That would be now.

I know some people protested against the war. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. That you're not stupid? I didn't say you are. I said SOME and I also used the word in the title of my thread. I think "some" is a word that you use in your language, so you should know what it means.

You've been telling me that not all Americans are stupid since the first post you wrote, which I never assumed anyway. So there will be not much difference if you stop talking. I'm not sure what you expect me to "realize" when I didn't really oppose your view anyway- which is that not all Americans are stupid.

I'm sorry if you felt like you were talking to a brick wall. I'm actually not being sarcastic about this. I felt the same way when I was talking to you and some specific people on this thread, so I know this is something I really don't want to sound like.


Quote:
I'll just tackle the soldier thing, I meant once they are a soldier it's very difficult to leave before their enlistment is up for other than medical reasons. Prior to this war, and even after it started, many joined the military to further and pay for their education, as a way to help dig themselves out of their current situations, to benefit their families, as a way to see the world, and for a myriad of other reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to wage war. For a lot of poor and lower income families, the military is seen as a way to get out of that cycle, to pay for school and sometimes some see it as the only option.

Once they are there, they are committed and have sworn to follow where their commanders (and the President is the Commander in Chief) choose to send them. Only senior officers have much say in where they go.

In order for them to leave they'd have to try and secure a discharge and saying "I don't agree with our reasons for fighting." is not an acceptable reason to be discharged according to the top brass. I know a lot of military people, my brother is a Marine who just came back from Afghanistan. They take their oath very seriously. Do they want to be there? No my brother would have been much happier to be home with his family hunting, fishing, laughing.

There are some who have found ways to stay out of direct conflict though but it's hard and some have limited resources to do so.

People also support them despite what they are fighting for because the ones who are coming back are not given the amount of services they need. Many have PTSD or other emotional, psychological, and even physical scarring from their service and can't get the help they need. Our own government is failing them when they return. MANY our outraged by that and are trying to take steps to fix it.


Thanks for explaining it to me...I'm guessing that people who are directly affected by this (most Americans) will feel differently about it from people who are not involved and seeing it more objectively. I just can't compare anything with war, even money and educaion seem trivial compared to a war. But who knows, maybe if I had a brother who had to go through this I would think of him as a hero...I do still hold the same view I did before on this topic, but I appreciate that you actually explained this to me. I think your post has been one of the few posts with any benefitial and new information for me in the whole of this thread (I've heard "talking to a brick wall" before, so I can't really say its new..)
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:56 AM   #96
 
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Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
Quote:
Exactly. I did protest, literally in the streets, against the war in Iraq.

Americans are not monolithic, but try to tell sarasara that is like talking to a brick wall. She also apparently thinks her own people are equally monolithic. Maybe someday she'll realize how wrong she is on all counts.

Meanwhile, I know when to stop because I'm not being heard. That would be now.

I know some people protested against the war. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. That you're not stupid? I didn't say you are. I said SOME and I also used the word in the title of my thread. I think "some" is a word that you use in your language, so you should know what it means.

You've been telling me that not all Americans are stupid since the first post you wrote, which I never assumed anyway. So there will be not much difference if you stop talking. I'm not sure what you expect me to "realize" when I didn't really oppose your view anyway- which is that not all Americans are stupid.

I'm sorry if you felt like you were talking to a brick wall. I'm actually not being sarcastic about this. I felt the same way when I was talking to you and some specific people on this thread, so I know this is something I really don't want to sound like.


Quote:
I'll just tackle the soldier thing, I meant once they are a soldier it's very difficult to leave before their enlistment is up for other than medical reasons. Prior to this war, and even after it started, many joined the military to further and pay for their education, as a way to help dig themselves out of their current situations, to benefit their families, as a way to see the world, and for a myriad of other reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to wage war. For a lot of poor and lower income families, the military is seen as a way to get out of that cycle, to pay for school and sometimes some see it as the only option.

Once they are there, they are committed and have sworn to follow where their commanders (and the President is the Commander in Chief) choose to send them. Only senior officers have much say in where they go.

In order for them to leave they'd have to try and secure a discharge and saying "I don't agree with our reasons for fighting." is not an acceptable reason to be discharged according to the top brass. I know a lot of military people, my brother is a Marine who just came back from Afghanistan. They take their oath very seriously. Do they want to be there? No my brother would have been much happier to be home with his family hunting, fishing, laughing.

There are some who have found ways to stay out of direct conflict though but it's hard and some have limited resources to do so.

People also support them despite what they are fighting for because the ones who are coming back are not given the amount of services they need. Many have PTSD or other emotional, psychological, and even physical scarring from their service and can't get the help they need. Our own government is failing them when they return. MANY our outraged by that and are trying to take steps to fix it.


Thanks for explaining it to me...I'm guessing that people who are directly affected by this (most Americans) will feel differently about it from people who are not involved and seeing it more objectively. I just can't compare anything with war, even money and educaion seem trivial compared to a war. But who knows, maybe if I had a brother who had to go through this I would think of him as a hero...I do still hold the same view I did before on this topic, but I appreciate that you actually explained this to me. I think your post has been one of the few posts with any benefitial and new information for me in the whole of this thread (I've heard "talking to a brick wall" before, so I can't really say its new..)

To expand on what KookyCurl said, we show our appreciation to our service members since they voluntarily do their job. They leave their families and they go to a foreign land knowing that they might not come home.

On a personal note...
No I haven't as a mother ever had to search for my daughter's body parts, but I have as a wife had my husband break down in my arms because he didn't want to leave his daughter and wife. I have as a mother had to comfort a toddler not knowing what's going on about why her daddy isn't home.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:06 AM   #97
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This is a very interesting discussion and I would rather not have to lock the thread. So, everyone, please try to make your points without personal attacks.
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Old 12-13-2010, 07:38 AM   #98
 
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Originally Posted by FieryCurls View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarasara View Post
Quote:
Exactly. I did protest, literally in the streets, against the war in Iraq.

Americans are not monolithic, but try to tell sarasara that is like talking to a brick wall. She also apparently thinks her own people are equally monolithic. Maybe someday she'll realize how wrong she is on all counts.

Meanwhile, I know when to stop because I'm not being heard. That would be now.

I know some people protested against the war. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. That you're not stupid? I didn't say you are. I said SOME and I also used the word in the title of my thread. I think "some" is a word that you use in your language, so you should know what it means.

You've been telling me that not all Americans are stupid since the first post you wrote, which I never assumed anyway. So there will be not much difference if you stop talking. I'm not sure what you expect me to "realize" when I didn't really oppose your view anyway- which is that not all Americans are stupid.

I'm sorry if you felt like you were talking to a brick wall. I'm actually not being sarcastic about this. I felt the same way when I was talking to you and some specific people on this thread, so I know this is something I really don't want to sound like.


Quote:
I'll just tackle the soldier thing, I meant once they are a soldier it's very difficult to leave before their enlistment is up for other than medical reasons. Prior to this war, and even after it started, many joined the military to further and pay for their education, as a way to help dig themselves out of their current situations, to benefit their families, as a way to see the world, and for a myriad of other reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to wage war. For a lot of poor and lower income families, the military is seen as a way to get out of that cycle, to pay for school and sometimes some see it as the only option.

Once they are there, they are committed and have sworn to follow where their commanders (and the President is the Commander in Chief) choose to send them. Only senior officers have much say in where they go.

In order for them to leave they'd have to try and secure a discharge and saying "I don't agree with our reasons for fighting." is not an acceptable reason to be discharged according to the top brass. I know a lot of military people, my brother is a Marine who just came back from Afghanistan. They take their oath very seriously. Do they want to be there? No my brother would have been much happier to be home with his family hunting, fishing, laughing.

There are some who have found ways to stay out of direct conflict though but it's hard and some have limited resources to do so.

People also support them despite what they are fighting for because the ones who are coming back are not given the amount of services they need. Many have PTSD or other emotional, psychological, and even physical scarring from their service and can't get the help they need. Our own government is failing them when they return. MANY our outraged by that and are trying to take steps to fix it.


Thanks for explaining it to me...I'm guessing that people who are directly affected by this (most Americans) will feel differently about it from people who are not involved and seeing it more objectively. I just can't compare anything with war, even money and educaion seem trivial compared to a war. But who knows, maybe if I had a brother who had to go through this I would think of him as a hero...I do still hold the same view I did before on this topic, but I appreciate that you actually explained this to me. I think your post has been one of the few posts with any benefitial and new information for me in the whole of this thread (I've heard "talking to a brick wall" before, so I can't really say its new..)

To expand on what KookyCurl said, we show our appreciation to our service members since they voluntarily do their job. They leave their families and they go to a foreign land knowing that they might not come home.

On a personal note...
No I haven't as a mother ever had to search for my daughter's body parts, but I have as a wife had my husband break down in my arms because he didn't want to leave his daughter and wife. I have as a mother had to comfort a toddler not knowing what's going on about why her daddy isn't home.

I'm sorry for that. I'm sure that is difficult, but I just don't believe its the same as someone who literally does not have a choice. Even if someone has to break an oath, and even if someone has to lose some money and take their family to sleep at their parents' house, even if it means that they postpone their education, there is still a choice to say no. Some people don't really have a choice. I hope you understand my meaning of the difference. Some people just don't have a choice.



I'm not going to lie, I can't say I understand the appreciation for what soldiers are doing (except if you are with the war, then that would make sense). I don't mean it to be snide, I just don't really understand. I can understand being worried, being scared to death, being sympathetic. But to me, brave is giving up the money and the education and the oath and saying no because you feel something is really wrong. I don't mean to offend you, but this is how I see it.
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:29 AM   #99
 
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This is a tricky point. During and after the Vietnam War, many of those who served were badly treated by the public. Imo, they received a double blow: the hell of that particular conflict, then contempt from those who didn't support their choice to serve.

I honestly don't know what's right in this case. I have a close friend who served as a Med-Evac in Iraq for two years. She says she does it for her daughter: that her concerns about preventing some of the worst abuses against women making their way to this country keep her going when it's most challenging. She is more politically conservative than I am, but she's a great person who believes what she's doing is right. So, I support her, because I don't know how to resolve the conflicts we have in the region.

I don't think it's easy to find soldiers who serve despite disagreeing with the war. The psychological, physical, and logistical price they and their families pay far outweighs whatever benefits they accrue.
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:44 AM   #100
 
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I'm sorry for that. I'm sure that is difficult, but I just don't believe its the same as someone who literally does not have a choice. Even if someone has to break an oath, and even if someone has to lose some money and take their family to sleep at their parents' house, even if it means that they postpone their education, there is still a choice to say no. Some people don't really have a choice. I hope you understand my meaning of the difference. Some people just don't have a choice.



I'm not going to lie, I can't say I understand the appreciation for what soldiers are doing (except if you are with the war, then that would make sense). I don't mean it to be snide, I just don't really understand. I can understand being worried, being scared to death, being sympathetic. But to me, brave is giving up the money and the education and the oath and saying no because you feel something is really wrong. I don't mean to offend you, but this is how I see it.
I think this post shows that you have lived with great financial privilege and never had to make tough life choices. It's not postponing your education, it's not getting one at all. Moving your family in with your parents? That would mean you have parents who have a big enough house and the means to support you. Not everyone has that luxury. Oh, and saying no after you take an oath, that is called desertion and your ass gets thrown in jail. We have not executed anyone for it in a while, but it is on the books as a penalty.
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