White people and racism... no, it's not what you think

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No, we can't--not in the world as we know it. Again, there's a profound difference between prejudice and racism. And, yes, you can almost always blame someone for their prejudices. In fact, I hope you were kidding in that last sentence.
Originally Posted by Honeycurls
No I wasn't kidding. For example, my 88 y/o gmom who grew up in south Carolina and had to drink out of water fountains and use both room marked colored, if she is had a hatred for white people, I won't be mad at her for that.


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Originally Posted by IAmJordanNicole
Believe me, I understand what you're saying. However, she is lowering herself to that same level--she's making a prejudgement against all white people--retaliatory in nature, yes, but it's still prejudice nonetheless.
Originally Posted by Honeycurls
I disagree completely that a person who has been treated as less than human and completely degraded because of who they are and has been taught for years that they are less than another group of people because of who they are who as a result is scarred and may express that with anger or distasteful comments is in any way "lowering" themself to the level of people who committed hate crimes against an entire race of people for their own benefit.

eta: sorry for the run-on sentence.
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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











OP, I greatly enjoyed reading your insightful and nuanced take on this difficult topic. It was very thought-provoking! I hope that I'll have a chance to read your opinions on other important issues, such as abortion or the Occupy protests.
See, I think that's very big of your g-ma. I don't know if I could say the same about myself if I'd grown up in those times. Very doubtful, in fact. Taking the higher road and turning the other cheek all the time are emotionally exhausting. But, you can either live a life steeped in hatred or you can try to rise above it. I'm glad your g-ma was able to rise above.

My theory on "prejudice" is that the ability to recognize and associate physical characteristics with similar or repeated behavior patterns or any other similarities between or among people, places or things in the wild is an innate and crucial survival mechanism. It's how we "learn" and survive. But, our big, advanced human brains allegedly further allow us to make further distinctions and more finely tune this ability. I feel comfortable saying that every red-hot, glowing stove burner is going to burn me. But, I don't think that every blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale-skinned person wants to see me dead simply because of my ethnic makeup, unless they specifically indicate otherwise, even though there are actually some who do.
OK, I admit it.....I'm an alias! I wasn't born with the name Honeycurls!
Dood, get over it; there's no time limit on lurking.

I so busy runnin' allllllll over the place and ain't nobody chasin' me!
See, I think that's very big of your g-ma. I don't know if I could say the same about myself if I'd grown up in those times. Very doubtful, in fact. Taking the higher road and turning the other cheek all the time are emotionally exhausting. But, you can either live a life steeped in hatred or you can try to rise above it. I'm glad your g-ma was able to rise above.

My theory on "prejudice" is that the ability to recognize and associate physical characteristics with similar or repeated behavior patterns or any other similarities between or among people, places or things in the wild is an innate and crucial survival mechanism. It's how we "learn" and survive. But, our big, advanced human brains allegedly further allow us to make further distinctions and more finely tune this ability. I feel comfortable saying that every red-hot, glowing stove burner is going to burn me. But, I don't think that every blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale-skinned person wants to see me dead simply because of my ethnic makeup, unless they specifically indicate otherwise, even though there are actually some who do.
Originally Posted by Honeycurls
And I don't think anyone is saying anyone does or should think that way.

But I'm sure most people do not have an issue with a woman who has been raped by a man being a little more cautious around men in the future out of self-preservation, and would not call her a "sexist" because of it or say she was stooping to the level of a rapist.
Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











My paper cut is just as bad as your terminal cancer, and if you can't put complaining about your cancer aside to focus on MY PAPER CUT, you are a horrible, unfair person!
Originally Posted by Amneris
Haha I have to use this quote! Thank you! Lol


On my EVO
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No I wasn't kidding. For example, my 88 y/o gmom who grew up in south Carolina and had to drink out of water fountains and use both room marked colored, if she is had a hatred for white people, I won't be mad at her for that.


Sent from my iPhone using CurlTalk
Originally Posted by IAmJordanNicole
Believe me, I understand what you're saying. However, she is lowering herself to that same level--she's making a prejudgement against all white people--retaliatory in nature, yes, but it's still prejudice nonetheless.
Originally Posted by Honeycurls
I disagree completely that a person who has been treated as less than human and completely degraded because of who they are and has been taught for years that they are less than another group of people because of who they are who as a result is scarred and may express that with anger or distasteful comments is in any way "lowering" themself to the level of people who committed hate crimes against an entire race of people for their own benefit.

eta: sorry for the run-on sentence.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I have been treated pretty badly by both blacks and whites, so, should I live out my life retaliating against both? I just can't. I'd have missed out on some pretty amazing people. No, it's not on the same level as what jordannicole is referencing with her g-ma, but it has had a profound effect on me that I have to actively fight every day.
OK, I admit it.....I'm an alias! I wasn't born with the name Honeycurls!
Dood, get over it; there's no time limit on lurking.

I so busy runnin' allllllll over the place and ain't nobody chasin' me!
See, I think that's very big of your g-ma. I don't know if I could say the same about myself if I'd grown up in those times. Very doubtful, in fact. Taking the higher road and turning the other cheek all the time are emotionally exhausting. But, you can either live a life steeped in hatred or you can try to rise above it. I'm glad your g-ma was able to rise above.

My theory on "prejudice" is that the ability to recognize and associate physical characteristics with similar or repeated behavior patterns or any other similarities between or among people, places or things in the wild is an innate and crucial survival mechanism. It's how we "learn" and survive. But, our big, advanced human brains allegedly further allow us to make further distinctions and more finely tune this ability. I feel comfortable saying that every red-hot, glowing stove burner is going to burn me. But, I don't think that every blonde-haired, blue-eyed, pale-skinned person wants to see me dead simply because of my ethnic makeup, unless they specifically indicate otherwise, even though there are actually some who do.
Originally Posted by Honeycurls
And I don't think anyone is saying anyone does or should think that way.

But I'm sure most people do not have an issue with a woman who has been raped by a man being a little more cautious around men in the future out of self-preservation, and would not call her a "sexist" because of it or say she was stooping to the level of a rapist.
Originally Posted by Amneris
Well, those were just oversimplifications to hopefully more easily illustrate my point. But, regarding rape, that's not really a good analogy to me. The motivations on both sides have different origins.
OK, I admit it.....I'm an alias! I wasn't born with the name Honeycurls!
Dood, get over it; there's no time limit on lurking.

I so busy runnin' allllllll over the place and ain't nobody chasin' me!
Amneris, are you chasin' me? Because, apparently "I runnin' all over the place and ain't nobody chasin' me" and I guess I need someone to chase me!

I understand what you're saying, though. It's a complex topic. If we ourselves can't agree, how can we expect those who don't share our history and experiences to understand? I went and opened my own floodgates anyway! Lol.

And, as much fun as this is, I have something even more fun--a mammogram. So, I'll leave you all to this stimulating conversation. Hope the OP ducks back in sometime soon!
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OK, I admit it.....I'm an alias! I wasn't born with the name Honeycurls!
Dood, get over it; there's no time limit on lurking.

I so busy runnin' allllllll over the place and ain't nobody chasin' me!
Come on you guys! Why do you do this to yourselves? Leave the troll alone.
Originally Posted by eche428
I know. She/He /It gave themselves away with the 1st paragraph. A lot of lonely, bored people out there this holiday season. We could be here for you instead of you trying to instigate drama.

First off I just want to say that if anyone quickly goes off the bend about what I've said by thinking it's BS or whatnot WITHOUT reading my post and especially because they have not watched the videos then you are showing CurlTalk your true colors on this topic.
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Every person has a unique connection to the Creator that can never be extinguished, and every person has a great soul that can manifest important things in our world. To make a person feel less than they are because of something inside themselves, be it faith, race, or sexual orientation, is the greatest sin of all."
At the risk of making myself late, I just had to come back on and ask you all to disregard my post about the rape analogy. I was thinking about it while in the shower, and I realized my error. I have more to say but no time now. Sorry for the backpedaling.
Amneris likes this.
OK, I admit it.....I'm an alias! I wasn't born with the name Honeycurls!
Dood, get over it; there's no time limit on lurking.

I so busy runnin' allllllll over the place and ain't nobody chasin' me!
I think you lost me at "questioning" white privilege and white supremacy.

Your post suggests you don't think those are real. If you don't understand how those work, you won't get the issues and you won't get any respect for your views from me and probably from others who get the issues.

The flaw in your logic is that you're assuming that Blacks or other people of colour "acting out" towards white people, is, and should be, seen as equal with white racism towards Black people. Not everyone shares that view. If you look at racism as having a power or institutionalized component, they are in no way the same. To me, this is the only legitimate way to view racism. You're also assuming that if a racialized person acts out towards a white person, it is out of dislike or a feeling of inferiority of white people. I believe that that is rarely, if ever, the case.


As to Black people talking about Blacks being racist against whites, that's a form of internalized racism - trying to gain acceptance and respect from white people by identifying with them and saying what they want to hear, or trying to escape the pain of their own situation by minimizing it and turning the focus elsewhere.

I find it funny that you talk about open-mindedness like you want people of colour to be open-minded to the "racism" white people face, but you have completely closed your mind to legitimate historic and social evidence.

I am not sure what the quote about slavery being about economics is supposed to prove. That doesn't change that a certain group of people was targetted in the name of economics. And the numbers show that Black slavery was far greater in scope and damage than any white slavery or any form of slavery in history. Lots of people have opinions like the ones you quoted - doesn't make them educated or informed or logical.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I expected answers like these! The truth often does anger people when they first hear about it. Hell, even I thought it was BS until I looked into it more.

Never once did I say that white supremacy or white privilege wasn't real and I'm not denying that it does not exist in some form. What I am saying is that there is more to history than meets the eye and this is part of it. There are many legitimate sources on this, you just have to look for it which is what I did.

Also, what I was trying to get at was that people need to see that all people have been(or is still being subjected unfortunately) to racism in some way, shape or form. It is never acceptable for one or the other to do so nor is it worse for one group or another. Is it safe to assume that you feel that way? I can understand why someone who actually knows that their family were slaves in the past would be racist to some extent but for everyone to feel that way is going to the extreme. You have to realize and accept that not all black people were slaves just like not all white people were slaves, slave traders or slave masters for that matter so for an entire race to hate another(each and every person, many who had nothing to do with the above) is again, going to the extremes. There were a lot of people involved in slavery(blacks, whites, asians, etc.). Saying that it was unacceptable and horrendous for one race yet not so for another is wrong as well.

Have any of you even watched the videos? The people in the videos actually got their information from creditable sources or from personal experience so they are not just made up like many want to believe.

The main reason I actually began looking into this is because of something my sister told me about. One of her friend's boyfriend(who is half white, half Jamaican) was taught all of what I posted and more from his father(who is black). I too thought it was bull at first and did not believe it like many people here until I did more research on it. I read up on stories from actual families from Scotland and Ireland who have had family members who were involved in slavery so it is very real even if you want to keep the blind over your eyes. Ignoring it in the hopes that it will go away, trashing those facts or denying any of it or calling me a troll will not change a thing no matter how hard you try. Sorry but it's true.

Also, I would suggest getting info from books and journals and government sources etc.
Three of the videos had information from books. The titles and authors were listed. You would know that if you watched(and listened) to it. Also, how can you say "government sources" without laughing? Read the fifth quote I posted and you will see that information on this has been so screwed up because of the people like the government. Why do you think Native Americans loath the government? It's because of the constant lies they spit out and the real history of slavery is one of many. It would explain why many don't want to believe it. I have family members who are Mi'k maq who don't even harbor any feelings of hate towards whites which you would expect them to do so! They hate the government but not an entire race. Hating everyone in the present won't change what happened in the past. All we can do is educate people on the past in the hopes that it will change the future for the better. That's why information on what I originally posted is coming to the surface more. You can deny it all you want it's still not going to change a thing but if you want to ignore it then by all means do so. Whatever gets you through the day.
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Creditable sources or credible sources? You can credit anybody with anything, but are they credible? Hmmm...

On my EVO
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I think you lost me at "questioning" white privilege and white supremacy.

Your post suggests you don't think those are real. If you don't understand how those work, you won't get the issues and you won't get any respect for your views from me and probably from others who get the issues.

The flaw in your logic is that you're assuming that Blacks or other people of colour "acting out" towards white people, is, and should be, seen as equal with white racism towards Black people. Not everyone shares that view. If you look at racism as having a power or institutionalized component, they are in no way the same. To me, this is the only legitimate way to view racism. You're also assuming that if a racialized person acts out towards a white person, it is out of dislike or a feeling of inferiority of white people. I believe that that is rarely, if ever, the case.


As to Black people talking about Blacks being racist against whites, that's a form of internalized racism - trying to gain acceptance and respect from white people by identifying with them and saying what they want to hear, or trying to escape the pain of their own situation by minimizing it and turning the focus elsewhere.

I find it funny that you talk about open-mindedness like you want people of colour to be open-minded to the "racism" white people face, but you have completely closed your mind to legitimate historic and social evidence.

I am not sure what the quote about slavery being about economics is supposed to prove. That doesn't change that a certain group of people was targetted in the name of economics. And the numbers show that Black slavery was far greater in scope and damage than any white slavery or any form of slavery in history. Lots of people have opinions like the ones you quoted - doesn't make them educated or informed or logical.
Originally Posted by Amneris
I expected answers like these! The truth often does anger people when they first hear about it. Hell, even I thought it was BS until I looked into it more.

LOL, you haven't "looked into it" at all unless youtube is now substituting for study and research. Who says I'm angry, and who says your BS IS the truth? I get annoyed when people present ignorant opinions AS the truth, but that's about it. It offends me as a person who has lived and studied these issues extensively and sees their effect every day, but it takes a lot more than some silly two-bit videos to make me "angry", let alone convince me of the "truth."


Never once did I say that white supremacy or white privilege wasn't real and I'm not denying that it does not exist in some form.

I don't think you have any inkling of insight into what those actually are, and you are supremely unqualified to even talk about them.


What I am saying is that there is more to history than meets the eye and this is part of it. There are many legitimate sources on this, you just have to look for it which is what I did.

So youtube is a legitimate source now? Let's close down all the universities!


Also, what I was trying to get at was that people need to see that all people have been(or is still being subjected unfortunately) to racism in some way, shape or form.

Untrue. Different people have been the target and some people who are not targets now have been in the past, but in our modern society, there has always been a "white" group that was privileged and not subject to racism. In the period prior to extensive contact between Europeans and the rest of the world, "race" had a different meaning than it does now so it would take a while to get into that dynamic, but from the time that Europeans began the genocide of aboriginal peoples in the Americas and African slavery, whites have been the privileged group. Period.

It is never acceptable for one or the other to do so nor is it worse for one group or another. Is it safe to assume that you feel that way?

This is just an ignorant statement because it assumes that people who are not white are being racist. I can't even answer such a foolish question.

I can understand why someone who actually knows that their family were slaves in the past would be racist to some extent but for everyone to feel that way is going to the extreme.

I never said such a person would or should be racist.

You have to realize and accept that not all black people were slaves just like not all white people were slaves, slave traders or slave masters for that matter so for an entire race to hate another(each and every person, many who had nothing to do with the above) is again, going to the extremes. There were a lot of people involved in slavery(blacks, whites, asians, etc.). Saying that it was unacceptable and horrendous for one race yet not so for another is wrong as well.

Slavery is a separate issue, so I'm not sure why you fixated on that - it's only a part of the larger picture of racism. And no one is saying all Black people were slaves. But the thing with slavery is that it stigmatized all Black people and continued to do so regardless of their personal histories. If you read more about it, you'd know that. And yes there were Black people involved in slavery, and there were some white slaves - no one is denying that, but that doesn't lessen the magnitude of what slavery did.

White slavery was very much based on class, which is another issue altogether, though a serious one.


Have any of you even watched the videos? The people in the videos actually got their information from creditable sources or from personal experience so they are not just made up like many want to believe.

I do not have time to waste on "Da N... wit da tattoos" and his friends, sorry. Do you really believe everything you see/hear? If their sources are so credible, did you check them out or go to the actual source yourself? If you want to provide some book titles they named, I can comment further.

The main reason I actually began looking into this is because of something my sister told me about. One of her friend's boyfriend(who is half white, half Jamaican) was taught all of what I posted and more from his father(who is black). I too thought it was bull at first and did not believe it like many people here until I did more research on it. I read up on stories from actual families from Scotland and Ireland who have had family members who were involved in slavery so it is very real even if you want to keep the blind over your eyes. Ignoring it in the hopes that it will go away, trashing those facts or denying any of it or calling me a troll will not change a thing no matter how hard you try. Sorry but it's true.

I don't see the relevance of this. Yes, a small proportion of the total slaves brought to the Americas were from Ireland and Scotland. The Irish weren't considered white at that time, for what it is worth.

Also, I would suggest getting info from books and journals and government sources etc.
Three of the videos had information from books. The titles and authors were listed. You would know that if you watched(and listened) to it. Also, how can you say "government sources" without laughing?

Because they keep statistics on social issues.

Read the fifth quote I posted and you will see that information on this has been so screwed up because of the people like the government. Why do you think Native Americans loath the government? It's because of the constant lies they spit out and the real history of slavery is one of many.

I think they loathe the government for stealing their land and acting entitled to it, and exterminating them along the way.


It would explain why many don't want to believe it. I have family members who are Mi'k maq who don't even harbor any feelings of hate towards whites which you would expect them to do so!

Ah... you are from Nova Scotia or another maritime province? That would explain this then, LOL.

They hate the government but not an entire race. Hating everyone in the present won't change what happened in the past.

Again, did I miss where anyone said they hate an entire race? So what brought this rant on?

All we can do is educate people on the past in the hopes that it will change the future for the better. That's why information on what I originally posted is coming to the surface more. You can deny it all you want it's still not going to change a thing but if you want to ignore it then by all means do so. Whatever gets you through the day.
Originally Posted by Calypso
And "educate" is the key word, LOL. I ignore misinformation and ignorance like you posted for that very reason.
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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











On an individual scale..I think racism is racism. It's not more severe if it's against a black person and less severe because it's a white person.

But I don't think racism that whites have faced in the USA can compare to the racism that blacks have faced in the USA. It's on a much larger scale and has been for a long time against blacks in the USA. And making the point that some white people have been enslaved before..doesn't change that fact. If you were black when slavery was going on in the USA..and you couldn't pass you were a slave period. It wasn't.. a few blacks over here enslaved..and the vast majority free.

Not to mention you got told you couldn't marry, you couldn't keep your kids or husband (if massa felt like selling them), you couldn't vote, you couldn't own jack (unless massa said so), if you tried to run.. it was hell to pay. If you were female and massa felt like it then he'd take you by force and then pops out a mixed child that massa didn't acknowledge as his for the most part.

Sometimes you could hardly name yourself or your kids. Massa was picking out your name and everything. Calling you all sorts of nicknames. If you invented something and it was good the massa took it as his and got credit for it. And in some cases if you were a black male..if you looked at a white woman wrong..you were getting beat sensless or hung if she said you did something to her!

I'm certainly not dismissing predjuice or racism that whites have been subjected to in the USA.. I'm just saying when you compare it to racism against blacks in the USA. It's no contest. And it doesn't mean racism against whites should be tolerated or ignored either.

In my opinion, there is a such thing as white privledge. This doesn't mean or imply that every white person that's ever lived in the USA has done well for himself/herself because of it. But it is to say that because most people in charge are white.. and a lot of people of color that are in charge are afraid to either lose their position or don't want to go against a white person for fear.. that white people often are granted and just expect privledges that black people do not. IE: if a white guy is driving a really nice car he's less likely to get stopped by the police than a black guy is according to stats anyway. A black woman is more likely to be watched in a store for stealing than a white woman. Which is interesting since according to stats I read it's older white women who do the most stealing in stores.

Last edited by *Marah*; 11-25-2011 at 02:29 PM.
What Amneris said.
No MAS.

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Have any of you even watched the videos? The people in the videos actually got their information from creditable sources or from personal experience so they are not just made up like many want to believe.
Originally Posted by Calypso
Calypso I watched all the videos and they are stupid. Also the "personal experiences" of a few people do not contribute to your point. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Anyway thank you for your dumb troll thread. I've been running out of material to procrastinate with, and this thread is helping me out a little.
Have any of you even watched the videos? The people in the videos actually got their information from creditable sources or from personal experience so they are not just made up like many want to believe.
Originally Posted by Calypso
Calypso I watched all the videos and they are stupid. Also the "personal experiences" of a few people do not contribute to your point. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

Anyway thank you for your dumb troll thread. I've been running out of material to procrastinate with, and this thread is helping me out a little.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
LOL - love it!
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Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali











OP, I greatly enjoyed reading your insightful and nuanced take on this difficult topic. It was very thought-provoking! I hope that I'll have a chance to read your opinions on other important issues, such as abortion or the Occupy protests.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
YES! I'm sure OP's opinion on these issues is quite profound! I'm anxiously awaiting this brilliance.

On my EVO
LOL - love it!
Originally Posted by Amneris
Lol, thank you. I didn't come up with the anecdote/data line, but I really like it and I pretty much wrote that post just so I could throw that phrase in.

Also I was kidding, I didn't watch those videos. There's better crap to procrastinate with.

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