sew and sew

Given her mindset then as she describes it now-what phased her about him, especially in the moment they first had intercourse, it's hard for me to see her gathering the courage to resist him, and easy from her account to gather he took full advantage of that.

If I try to put myself in those shoes, the time, the fear that would be injected into the situation by beginning to physically resist, let alone simply thinking about it, it gives me the feeling it easily could have been rape. But she genuinely was attracted to him too, so as the person going through that, she's going to hold herself accountable (natural from rape victims), recognize her own attraction to him, and so connect to it as consensual. She probably didn't resent that he did it, but it doesn't change the fact he made those moves under the circumstances he did, knowing the power he was wielding.

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misspam

This.

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rouquinne

how convenient that all those people are dead and can't defend themselves.

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CGNYC

That's exactly what I was thinking.

iroc

I don't think its fair to allow something to happen, for whatever reasons, then feel a little ashamed about it later, and then call it rape.

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cailin

Just food for thought:

At a sexual harrassment class the teacher said that a relationship between a boss and a subordinate can never be consensual. The power difference is too great.

I would say in this context with a 44/45 year old President of the United States and a 19 year old college intern... that would hold true.

thelio

[QUOTE=cailin;1881564]Just food for thought:

At a sexual harrassment class the teacher said that a relationship between a boss and a subordinate can never be consensual. The power difference is too great.

[QUOTE]

I learned this as well. but no matter what went down. I dont know why people have to bring it back to the surface for gain. most women who are raped, dont write books about it 50 years later when no one can defend themselves. when people does this, i dont trust them. what's the point? what are their motives? she claims it was an affair. we all know jfk was a man-hoe, so who cares? he slept with everybody and their mama! she's not reporting anything new and shocking.

Nallia

Consent under duress cannot be considered legal consent. Consent under duress would be rape. But I can't say if this was rape or not. A lot of time has gone by and humans change their own memories every day without even realizing it. Was it rape? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe she always felt forced but talked herself out of her feelings because of who he was. Maybe she developed those feelings later. I can't say. But I can't write rape off as a possibility. Things like this still happen all too often.

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BekkaPoo

Where's that "Honest Rape" thread when you need it.. seems there's a bit of contradiction going on here.

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Eilonwy

Ugh, I don't read Salon often but I happened to be on the site when that Prudie article was new. I read the headline and knew I wasn't going to like what she said. But I read it anyway, because it's important to me to keep track of how people conceptualize rape. And yup, it was just as horrible as I'd feared.

Guess what, rapists purposely target women who they think won't be believed. Shocking, I know

Eilonwy

Sew and sew, that was very well put

No, we can't know for sure whether meaningful consent was given. But that's exactly why we can't write off the very real possibility that this was rape.

frau

i don't think he thought he raped her. please remember the time, it's not today where men have learned that no means no. i'm taking this from the football site, but a long time ago, "no meant try harder."

for me, as a virgin i wanted to have sex but i was nervous, who wouldn't be?
if i wasn't nervous i think he'd think i wanted it and if i wanted it, then that would mean either i was experienced or slutty or as the millionaire match maker would say, "had too much masculine energy."

for a woman it's a lose lose situation when you are in control of your body and you actually like sex, you suddenly slide into the whore realm-unless you're in a committed relationship-and how can you be with a married man who isn't committed to anyone?

....of course i didn't read the article, i'm just assuming a lot from your responses.

Eilonwy

What does that have to do with whether the woman gave consent?

In a court case, yes, the perspective of the alleged rapist matters. But we're not talking about this as a potential lawsuit. When it comes to rape, people are so much more willing to identify with the alleged rapist than with the alleged victim. We need to stop doing that.

Saria

This. I know I've done it and it's a big reason why rapes aren't reported.

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CurlyElectra

I agree with this.

IMO, there is a big difference between feeling disrespected and being raped. And it seems to me that if he asked her if she was okay, she had an out at that time. Now, understanding that he is the President, I do get her point about her not wanting to say no to a powerful man, but...so...does the President rape a woman every time he sleeps with her because she is afraid to say no to him? How would he even know that?

When I was in college, my roommate got drunk and hooked up with a guy we knew (he was also drunk). Now, he came over to our apt the next day and spent the ENTIRE day with her, she spoke to him after that, it was like they were dating...until another football player told one of our friends that he was in the locker room bragging about their hook up and "how" he "hit it." After she heard this, she told all of us that he sexually assaulted her and she was drunk, and she had to ask him to stop like three times...before he stopped (but he did stop). Then it turned into her basically acting like he was a rapist - her mom came to school, called his parents, etc....when we were at parties and he was there, she'd want all of her friends to leave with her. The situation always seemed fishy to me, especially since she told me that she didn't want people to think she was a heaux. It seemed like she was saving face because she felt disrespected about how he was talking about her.

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CGNYC

I am always going to be suspicious of someone who didn't seek justice but is willing to go for fame.

Josephine

I agree, and if it's the same woman, I heard on The View(could be incorrect) that he gave her drugs to take to perform certain sexual acts. Maybe this part is her being dumb to go back to him but if he really pushed her on the bed in the beginning, how is this not rape? It's possible that she didn't want to think of it as rape and convinced herself to believe she's okay with it and went back and went along with whatever he wanted. Either way, he definitely took advantage of her and she didn't realize it until later.

misspam

I'm just taking this woman at her word. She says it was an affair, not rape.

And simply the act of him pushing her on the bed is rape? You're assuming it was a forceful, violent pushing, where I assume it was more of a playful push as part of his seduction routine. She didn't try to leave. He asked her if she was OK with what was happening and she said yes.

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scrills

while at first glance, this comment may seem off, i think Frau has a point. In those times, neither of them may have seen it as rape. And since rape is about consent, the mindframe matter.

curlyarca

I don't know if timeframe always matters. For example in the south, plenty of "the help" were getting raped by the heads of household/male employers. Many did not resist, because there was more perceived danger in resisting (likely certain death or at least severe beating or jail time). Doesn't make those cases any less cases of rape.

I personally don't care if she did write a book about it after everyone was dead. To me, that's like saying all of these sealed records from Nixon and Kennedy era aren't true because they weren't made public until everyone was dead and couldn't defend themselves against what's in them.

Also, I saw The Accused, and I wasn't sitting there thinking, "man, this woman is horrible, getting famous off of rape." I've also read many memoirs/books that have sold really well that have told stories of rape. E.g., Maya Angelou, Oprah, and others come to mind.

I think it is difficult for people to compartmentalize this information. It's ok to say he and Marilyn were getting it on, because they're both dead so who cares. But this woman is alive and well and tells her story and she's money hungry? I could be wrong, maybe she is. But she seems very well off to me.

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