So, um, JFK raped this woman...

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What does that have to do with whether the woman gave consent?

In a court case, yes, the perspective of the alleged rapist matters. But we're not talking about this as a potential lawsuit. When it comes to rape, people are so much more willing to identify with the alleged rapist than with the alleged victim. We need to stop doing that.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
first of all SHE never said she was raped and SHE is still living and has the perspective of today and yesterday and has never said she was raped. the article i just read said she was "swept away."

i think some of you really need to stop it, thinking that sex is always some sort flowers and wine and yeses and i love yous. it's not always like that and just because it's not, doesn't mean it's rape.

my point is that there was coercion not abuse.

once again, they're coming from the era (and let's be real, it's still like this) where a woman's no is often just a yes with a little persuasion.
She was seduced by power and flattered by his attention. She doesn't have any regrets except that she feels bad for Jackie. She said she didn't feel bad for Jackie at the time but later she felt guilty about the sex.
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I don't think sex is that at all. Haven't really had much of that. I've also never been coerced into having sex. Even people who are into things like BDSM and role playing employ safe words in case it gets to a point where one of the involved parties doesn't want to go. So, no, it's not a matter of thinking of sex in only one way. It's about knowing and respecting your partner's boundaries.
so you are going to sit here and tell me that every time you've had sex it started out as a resounding yes, even the first time?

you never said no and then changed your mind?

you never had sex when you were mad at your partner and it was the last thing you were thinking would happen?

your partner never had to convince or persuade you to have sex with him? it's always been, "saria, would you like to have sex?" and you've been, "why yes, i would like to have sex! let's go!"

hell, i'd probably be a virgin today if my partners stopped whatever they were doing when i said no.
My partners have never had to ask if I wanted to have sex, frau.

That's a no to all your questions.

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Last edited by Saria; 02-09-2012 at 09:13 PM.
My partners have never had to ask if I wanted to have sex, frau.

That's a no to all your questions.
Originally Posted by Saria
so if they never asked you must've been raped!

that is the point here, isn't it?

there is an assumption that this woman has been raped because she described....well, i don't know why people are assuming she was raped.

is it because she was 19? what? 19 year olds don't like sex??

is it because he threw her on the bed?
once again, not all sex is gentle, sweet or tender.
What does that have to do with whether the woman gave consent?

In a court case, yes, the perspective of the alleged rapist matters. But we're not talking about this as a potential lawsuit. When it comes to rape, people are so much more willing to identify with the alleged rapist than with the alleged victim. We need to stop doing that.
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
first of all SHE never said she was raped and SHE is still living and has the perspective of today and yesterday and has never said she was raped. the article i just read said she was "swept away."

i think some of you really need to stop it, thinking that sex is always some sort flowers and wine and yeses and i love yous. it's not always like that and just because it's not, doesn't mean it's rape.

my point is that there was coercion not abuse.

once again, they're coming from the era (and let's be real, it's still like this) where a woman's no is often just a yes with a little persuasion.
Originally Posted by frau
um PLENTY of rape victims would never say, admit or believe that they were raped. That doesn't mean that they weren't...Not accepting or admitting that you were raped is actually reallllly common. We live in a culture where women are supposed to say yes always, or be "stronger" than rape, or deserve sex if they do certain things or dress certain ways. I'm not in the woman's brain (NO ONE here is, regardless of what she says) but it's not hard at all for me to imagine that she would think that, because she was in the room alone with him she must have somehow wanted the sex regardless of how she thought she felt. Women who go into rooms alone with strange men must be willing to have sex with them, right? Even if you don't want to have sex with him, you led him on right?
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Last edited by AmberBrown; 02-09-2012 at 09:51 PM.
i absolutely agree that victims of rape may not believe they were raped as a coping mechanism.
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My partners have never had to ask if I wanted to have sex, frau.

That's a no to all your questions.
Originally Posted by Saria
so if they never asked you must've been raped!

that is the point here, isn't it?

there is an assumption that this woman has been raped because she described....well, i don't know why people are assuming she was raped.

is it because she was 19? what? 19 year olds don't like sex??

is it because he threw her on the bed?
once again, not all sex is gentle, sweet or tender.
Originally Posted by frau
Why are you erecting such an ugly straw man, frau? Since when do the offer or the consent have to be verbal to exist? As if a woman can't possibly be like, smiling and taking her clothes off and actively involved in making the sex happen? And I know you must be deliberately misinterpreting Saria saying they "never had to ask" to mean that they never gave her a chance to consent or refuse. That is flat out ridiculous and you know it.
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Frau, I'm really confused by these last few posts of yours. It looks like you're erecting a bizarre strawman.
I think in large part it boils down to how rape is defined, not only legally but how we as individuals define it. I had a rape attempt when I was 20. This doesn't seem like rape to me: to me it is coercion. "Swept away" (how romantic!) and returning to have sex multiple times which is how this woman characterizes it (an "affair") doesn't sound like rape.

It doesn't even sound to me like the example given of help being forced to have sex with the heads of their households (Curlyarca's post).
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i sound crazy?? this whole thread is crazy?? you all are claiming a woman was raped who never said she was raped!

because i disagree and try to point out the reality of how sex is, i'm the one who is off.

no!! you all are being unrealistic about life and about sex.

just as absurd as it may be suggest that saria was raped by her partners because they didn't ask, it's absurd to think you all know what happened between this woman and jfk!

i'm asking, why there is an assumption of rape in this situation?? just because she was young? because she said he threw her on the bed??

why is it okay for you all to stretch her words into a rape scenario but i can't stretch saria's?
why can't i like curlypearl's post? hmph.

i just want to also say that it's clear jfk used her for her body but it didn't mean he raped her.

it's really likely that she tried to turn what was sexual encounters into a relationship.

but that still does not justify calling their loveless sex acts rape.
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and lastly, i'm just debating.
no one should take anything i say seriously or to heart.
saria and eilonwy, i love you guys as much as one can having never met or saw them in real life or online, lol.
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I don't know if timeframe always matters. For example in the south, plenty of "the help" were getting raped by the heads of household/male employers. Many did not resist, because there was more perceived danger in resisting (likely certain death or at least severe beating or jail time). Doesn't make those cases any less cases of rape.

This is completely true. Some cases women had to hand over their daughters to the white men or face horrible punishment. But I really dont think this lady would had been in any real danger if she resisted the president. She could had easily quit the intership adn severed all tides with dc if she was fearful of repricussions if refusing the sexual advances of JFK.

I personally don't care if she did write a book about it after everyone was dead. To me, that's like saying all of these sealed records from Nixon and Kennedy era aren't true because they weren't made public until everyone was dead and couldn't defend themselves against what's in them.

I think anything that has to do with this country should be made public to the people. Its in the constitution. We are suppose to be able to know this information. But what the presidents does in the privacy of their own homes, as long as its legal and not harming any one, is their business. If some one writes a book about the presidents person lives, if for profit, point blank. serves no other purpose.

Also, I saw The Accused, and I wasn't sitting there thinking, "man, this woman is horrible, getting famous off of rape." I've also read many memoirs/books that have sold really well that have told stories of rape. E.g., Maya Angelou, Oprah, and others come to mind.

Maya and Oprah didnt seek fame for what happened to them as children. Once they got the fame, they let the world know what happened to them to help others like them. They were children, they were raped, no question about it. this woman is saying she wasn't rape, it was an affair and she is seeking fame by writing a book about it.

I think it is difficult for people to compartmentalize this information. It's ok to say he and Marilyn were getting it on, because they're both dead so who cares. But this woman is alive and well and tells her story and she's money hungry? I could be wrong, maybe she is. But she seems very well off to me.

I dont think its about money, but fame. she says she wasnt rape, so why cant we believe her?
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Last edited by thelio; 02-10-2012 at 06:25 AM.
Frau, nobody called you crazy, and you can't assume everyone who responded to you is arguing for or against saying this woman was raped - I just basically came in on this page and saw you talking like consent is only verbal and making a funky strawman argument equating saying a dude "never had to ask" with saying a dude never would have asked, and had to call you out. I repeat, that is flat out ridiculous, and you know it. I don't think that sex being gentle or rough relates in any way to how rape is defined, and I don't understand why you're acting like anyone who disagrees with you thinks sex is always tender and sweet.
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I'm pretty on the fence about whether she was raped or not, but I have to admit I lean towards it being rape.

Rape is about power and control, and sex is the way the perp exerts that power. I guess the point others are making is that, well.....rape is on a spectrum? Maybe that's why some of these politicians think there's "rape" then there's HONEST rape?

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I don't think sex is that at all. Haven't really had much of that. I've also never been coerced into having sex. Even people who are into things like BDSM and role playing employ safe words in case it gets to a point where one of the involved parties doesn't want to go. So, no, it's not a matter of thinking of sex in only one way. It's about knowing and respecting your partner's boundaries.
Originally Posted by Saria
Let me just echo this.

If this happened to an intern today (and I guess she'd have to jump up and scream it in the streets so we know she's not just being manipulative and/or greedy), it would be considered:

a. sexual harrassment
b. statutory rape, if under the age of consent and sexual harrassment.
c. rape
d. coercion

And as I write d, all I can hear is Mama telling the story of how "she liked it," to Carrie.

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

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I wonder if she wrote the book not because she wanted fame and money but rather as a form of therapy.

Maybe all these years she felt victimized and wasn't sure if she had the "right" to.

Or she just wants some retirement money..who knows.

I think there was a Law and Order SVU ep like this. Some dude wined and dined a niave young girl got her into bed etc...then once she was head over heels for this jerk he pimped her out. First to his friends then to paying customers.
Mimi Alford says this was an affair. At 19, she knew right from wrong. Reguardless of whether she didn't feel like she could refuse sex to the POTUS simply because of his position. She certainly knew then that she could have refused and she certainly knows now that she could have refused. She opted not to do so because that is what she chose to do. She had a fiance and still continued her affair with the married POTUS. She repeatedly came back to him to have sex and there was no threat she mentioned concerning if she didn't come back to him. If she really wanted it to end.. it could have ended. She wasn't "pimped" out to David Powers. JFK probably did suggest her to do some sexual acts for David Powers, but she ultimately made the choice to grant his request. If she didn't want to perform fellatio on Powers. She could have refused.

I think it's easy for certain people to just place the label "rapist" on JFK because he was a known womanizer. And his morals were pretty darn low when it came to sex. But when the emotion is taken out of it and the facts are examined.. rape is not an issue in this matter.

I think even bringing the question forth of did JFK rape this woman is moot considering the fact that she was there..she knows what went on..and furthermore this is just her word. She's not yelling from the roof tops that JFK raped her..she's detailing an affair. The public doesn't really know all what went on..there is just this woman's word about a dead man. People can rationalize it six ways from Sunday about oh he was older..oh he was the POTUS.. oh he was a womanizer..oh well technically rape is if..blah blah. The bottom line is SHE says she engaged in an affair with this man and for other people to go back and try to re-define what happened between she and him is sort of pointless to me.. cause honestly who knows what the heck REALLY went on..

And just from this thread alone..it's obvious views of rape vary...and so it is with the rest of the world. Frankly, I don't even believe everyone thinks rape is about power. Hence why there is even an issue of "rape"..and "honest rape" in the first place.

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