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Old 01-21-2007, 03:26 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Amneris
One of the big historical reasons why the Church promoted fish Fridays was to bolster the Portuguese fisheries when they were having hard times. Nowadays one of the reasons given is to help us Catholics be set apart from others and have a tangible reminder of our faith, and to make sacrifices that mirror the ultimate sacrifice Christ made for us.
A guy I knew in college would tell people that the reigning Pope at the time actually owned the fisheries, and so made the rule to line his own pockets. Don't know if it's true, though.
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Old 01-21-2007, 03:26 PM   #22
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amneris
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Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Some vegetarians will eat seafood. Think of the Catholic definition of meat.
Those are pescatarians.... and re: the Catholic thing - Catholics are not allowed to eat the flesh of land animals on fast days such as Fridays during Lent, but we can eat fish instead. The Church doesn't say that that makes people vegetarians or that fish is a vegetable - it is just abstaining from something that most people enjoy (red & white meat) on certain important days. Most people who keep this practise eat all kinds of meat on every other day of the week, and don't consider themself any kind of vegetarian. Not eating "meat" is a spiritual discipline, not a dietary preference. Some Catholics don't eat "meat" on Christmas Eve out of respect for the animals in the stable when Jesus was born, and since there were no fish there, they'll eat seafood. Catholic vegetarians, such as myself, have to give up something else on Fridays and be creative in our spiritual denial.

One of the big historical reasons why the Church promoted fish Fridays was to bolster the Portuguese fisheries when they were having hard times. Nowadays one of the reasons given is to help us Catholics be set apart from others and have a tangible reminder of our faith, and to make sacrifices that mirror the ultimate sacrifice Christ made for us.

Many of the people who claim to be fish-eating vegetarians aren't Catholic and don't know anything about Catholic teaching, so I don't think that that is the reason they have those beliefs.
It may or may not, but it did remind me of a few Catholic frinds who insist that fish isn't meat. It just makes me wonder what type of food they consider it to be.

I was raised as an Episcopalian and used to argue about this whe i was a kid too.

Coptic Lent is the only one I can think of off the top of my head where all meat is truely given up.
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Old 01-21-2007, 04:50 PM   #23
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amneris
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Some vegetarians will eat seafood. Think of the Catholic definition of meat.
Those are pescatarians.... and re: the Catholic thing - Catholics are not allowed to eat the flesh of land animals on fast days such as Fridays during Lent, but we can eat fish instead. The Church doesn't say that that makes people vegetarians or that fish is a vegetable - it is just abstaining from something that most people enjoy (red & white meat) on certain important days. Most people who keep this practise eat all kinds of meat on every other day of the week, and don't consider themself any kind of vegetarian. Not eating "meat" is a spiritual discipline, not a dietary preference. Some Catholics don't eat "meat" on Christmas Eve out of respect for the animals in the stable when Jesus was born, and since there were no fish there, they'll eat seafood. Catholic vegetarians, such as myself, have to give up something else on Fridays and be creative in our spiritual denial.

One of the big historical reasons why the Church promoted fish Fridays was to bolster the Portuguese fisheries when they were having hard times. Nowadays one of the reasons given is to help us Catholics be set apart from others and have a tangible reminder of our faith, and to make sacrifices that mirror the ultimate sacrifice Christ made for us.

Many of the people who claim to be fish-eating vegetarians aren't Catholic and don't know anything about Catholic teaching, so I don't think that that is the reason they have those beliefs.
I mentioned Catholicism to demonstrate that historically, in many cultures fish traditionally isn't considered meat in the sense that land animals are meat. I guess I wasn't clear about that in the first post. I guess pescatarians call themselves "vegetarians who eat fish" because they don't know that word (as I didn't).
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Old 01-21-2007, 05:16 PM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Poodlehead
I have a good friend who is vegan, and she wears leather. She is not vegan because of a moral standpoint, though. She is vegan because it makes her feel healthier.
then she is, by definition, not a vegan. she is a vegetarian.

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Old 01-21-2007, 05:47 PM   #25
 
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Really? She not only doesn't eat meat, but she doesn't eat eggs, butter, milk, or anything made with animal products. I thought the terms only applied to the eating of animals, not the use of them in any way.
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Old 01-21-2007, 05:54 PM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by Poodlehead
Really? She not only doesn't eat meat, but she doesn't eat eggs, butter, milk, or anything made with animal products. I thought the terms only applied to the eating of animals, not the use of them in any way.
that's what I thought, too, until I found this on answers.com:

veg·an (vē'gən, vĕj'ən) pronunciation
n.

A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:08 PM   #27
 
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So she's operating by the first half of the definition and not the second half.
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:13 PM   #28
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poodlehead
Really? She not only doesn't eat meat, but she doesn't eat eggs, butter, milk, or anything made with animal products. I thought the terms only applied to the eating of animals, not the use of them in any way.
that's what I thought, too, until I found this on answers.com:

veg·an (vē'gən, vĕj'ən) pronunciation
n.

A vegetarian who eats plant products only, especially one who uses no products derived from animals, as fur or leather.
By this definition, Poodle's friend would be a vegan--because of the word "especially"
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Old 01-21-2007, 06:21 PM   #29
 
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from vegan action:

Quote:

what is a VEGAN? A vegan (pronounced VEE-gun) is someone who, for various reasons, chooses to avoid using or consuming animal products. While vegetarians choose not to use flesh foods, vegans also avoid dairy and eggs, as well as fur, leather, wool, down, and cosmetics or chemical products tested on animals.
from the american vegan society:
Quote:
Vegans exclude flesh, fish, fowl, dairy products (animal milk, butter, cheese, yogurt, etc.), eggs, honey, animal gelatin, and all other foods of animal origin.

Veganism also excludes animal products such as leather, wool, fur, and silk in clothing, upholstery, etc. Vegans usually make efforts to avoid the less-than-obvious animal oils, secretions, etc., in many products such as soaps, cosmetics, toiletries, household goods and other common commodities.
from the british vegan society:

Quote:
A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. [In dietary terms the society defines Veganism as] The practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.
i'm close to a lot of vegans, and i think that most any vegan you would ask would answer with this definition.

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Old 01-21-2007, 07:58 PM   #30
 
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Ok, I'm not going to argue with you, because you've obviously done your homeworkd! I'm also, however, not going to tell her she's not vegan, because it more adequately defines the way she eats, for her purposes. When she's in a restaurant and says she's vegan, she will not get food prepared with butter or eggs, something a vegetarian might be ok with eating.
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:33 AM   #31
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eilonwy
Some vegetarians will eat seafood. Think of the Catholic definition of meat.
Not to be picky... and not to pick on you at all, but it annoys me to no end when people say, "I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish."

If you eat fish, you are not a vegetarian.
I also get annoyed by the fish eating “vegetarians.” The fish has a face, how can you pretend you aren’t eating an animal?
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:53 AM   #32
 
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My mother in law decided to quit eating all meat except fish a few years ago and even though she's an extremely educated woman she didn't know she was a "pescatarian". I told her a while back what it's called over dinner one night and she said "Oh, really! I never knew!" LOL I had remembered it being discussed here before so I learned a little sumthin' sumthin' from my curlies.

I don't question it, I just make sure I accomodate her while she's visiting so we can all enjoy dinner together.
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:56 AM   #33
 
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Not just Catholics treat meat and fish differently. In the kashrut laws of Judaism, land animals and birds are considered meat. They can't be eaten together with dairy. Fish are not considered meat, which is why bagels, lox and cream cheese are kosher (and yummy). The kashrut laws of how to correctly slaughter an animal do not apply to fish either.

I still don't think anyone who eats fish is a vegetarian.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:05 AM   #34
 
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to me these are just labels.

and how people choose to label themselves is personal and doesn't take anything away from others.

to me, a vegetarian is someone who actually consumes vegetables.

if your diet is comprised of loads of pasta, rice, processed soy products, breads, pizza, etc., to me, you are less of a vegetarian than a person whose diet is mostly vegetation, but is also made up of about 5% meat.

but it's a free world. if both of you consider yourselves true vegetarians, more power to you!
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:15 AM   #35
 
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Quote:
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I also get annoyed by the fish eating “vegetarians.” The fish has a face, how can you pretend you aren’t eating an animal?
Maybe they're faceless fish, like beakless chickens? Just kidding!
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:25 AM   #36
 
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I don't eat red meat, but I eat poultry and fish. I in NO WAY consider myself any type of vegetarian, and in most situations no one would even notice that there's a whole category of food I don't eat. I've had friends for years who have been shocked when I told them I don't eat red meat, since they never noticed it and I don't make a big deal about it.

Then there's my family. They consider me a vegetarian, and don't understand how I can possibly survive without eating cows and pigs. And at about 90% of all family functions I don't have enough to eat because there are cow and pig products in virutually everything!

(Sorry, just had to vent!)
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:45 AM   #37
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz's loops
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Some vegans don't eat honey, either, because beekeepers clip the wings of the queens.
I did not know this.
These days the only honeybees that are still alive are the ones being taken care of by beekeepers. Mites have killed the wild ones. In my state, the agricultural college is trying to get more people to keep bees, because there aren't enough left to pollinate the crops.
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:48 AM   #38
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuZen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz's loops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Some vegans don't eat honey, either, because beekeepers clip the wings of the queens.
I did not know this.
These days the only honeybees that are still alive are the ones being taken care of by beekeepers. Mites have killed the wild ones. In my state, the agricultural college is trying to get more people to keep bees, because there aren't enough left to pollinate the crops.
Really? Wow, I didn't know that. I have seem some blurbs on TV about 'killer bees' replacing the previous honeybee, but I didn't know about mites.

I wonder how all this affects pollination?
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:56 AM   #39
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcelticcurls
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuZen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liz's loops
Quote:
Originally Posted by Springcurl
Some vegans don't eat honey, either, because beekeepers clip the wings of the queens.
I did not know this.
These days the only honeybees that are still alive are the ones being taken care of by beekeepers. Mites have killed the wild ones. In my state, the agricultural college is trying to get more people to keep bees, because there aren't enough left to pollinate the crops.
Really? Wow, I didn't know that. I have seem some blurbs on TV about 'killer bees' replacing the previous honeybee, but I didn't know about mites.

I wonder how all this affects pollination?
It is a problem for the crops that need bees for pollination. More and more farmers are keeping bees for that purpose, but they say they still need more honeybees. I have considered becoming a beekeeper. Our neighbor would give us some of his.
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:54 AM   #40
 
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My father keeps bees and farmers pay him to put honeybee hives on their farms. There are no longer enough wild honeybees to pollenate the vegetables, fruit trees, etc. I am pretty certain the queen's wings are not clipped in his hives, as he has had some hives swarm over the years (meaning the queen takes off and the rest of the bees follow). The honey I consume is cruelty-free.
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