Eilonwy

Woah nice siggie!

Springcurl

Yeah, I totally didn't even mean lowest but I was in the an airport typing quickly. What I MEANT to say is that we're below the national average. And everyone's hurting, of course.

__________________


Obamacare is not a blueprint for socialism. You're thinking of the New Testament. ~~ John Fugelsang

ss40

I think everyone should get formal training for a career. The idea that college is not for everyone is dumb. Some can't study well or don't test well but many student services exist for ppl to take advantage of on college campuses. My cousin is Autistic and in college doing well. So the "not for everyone" arguement doesn't work for me. Also picking the wrong major could make college an expensive bust. So not learning what your passion is or what the workforce needs are is not bright.

Blue collar jobs require formal training and are valued & necessary . I worship these ppl because I know what the world would be like without them. But often ppl want upward mobility and must return to college to get a promotion, you can' get that from experience alone these days. It gets discouraging to hit a glass ceiling when you want to improve your quality of life or job satisfaction. Its not snobbish to think everyone deserves a college education but realistically, parents have to prepare for the cost and children have to get accepted.

__________________
About my hair:
weekly shampoo-HE Honey I'm Strong
daily conditioner-HE Honey I'm Strong (use as li)
go to style-Pocahontas braids

ninja dog

I read recently that some entrepreneurs were suggesting that potential students be offered funding for innovative company ideas. I like this idea if they'll truly stand behind it.

However, I also believe in college and Vo Ed. The Chicago newspaper columnist Mike Royko took a lot of guff for his suggestion that we as a society need doormen and bus drivers, too, and that not everyone should go to college. However, if he were still alive and writing today, I wonder if he would feel the same way?

To me, the issue is two-fold: can a person earn a living -- not subsistence-- wage at an unskilled job? Aren't we losing our high employment/ manufacturing standard because the answer has become "no"? Haven't corporations and industries moved jobs overseas because they can pay people essentially nothing, and still find plenty of takers?

It seems to me that Obama is looking at our current reality and planning for the future with his suggestions. As the wealthy grow ever-richer, rebuilding for a secure middle class of every race and color seems sensible to me.

Also, elderflower, as you know, I'm in Ohio. While I would love to defend my state, current circumstances make that damned hard to do, in more ways than one. We have huge political divisions here that trap us in an unending battle between conservative and progressive/liberal. I am happy here, but I'm one of the lucky ones, I suspect. (Though I'm very popular with my local election board, for being a democrat in a city largely filled with republicans.)

thelio

I agree with this! My dad a long time ago decided to go into blue colloar/ manuel labor because he figure he wouldnt need any "education". long story short he had to change careers after 30 years. he is now at a job where he has to attend classes to become certified in certain things. if he wants to get paid the big bucks he gots to take the classes. he calls me up one day whiney about ahving to go to classes, "My brain is the only muscle i have that i never used, now i have too, and it hurts!" of course he was joking but you get the idea.

In todays world, you will need some sort of education if you want a job. even some minimum wage jobs require employees to take classes to become certified in stuff. my sister had to take some health and safety classes for her job at a royal farms (its kinda like a 7/11, but with more food and you can get gas. not from the food, but for your car) its not a university, but it's still education.

curlyarca

You know, I think you're right. This is a large part of the problem. But I do think in the meantime all of the people not in the K-12 system need something that will prepare them to live and work in the world. There definitely is a need for a multi-pronged approach.

__________________

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.

Jenny C

The idea that ANYONE would have a problem with the goal of having an educated country is baffling to me. I understand that college isn't for everyone, but you have to have some skill in order to be employable.

Whether it's college, graduate school, beauty school, culinary school, the police academy or learning a trade like plumbing, carpentry, etc- the point is there isn't much you can do with JUST a high school diploma and no other training, which is what the president was trying to say.

It's one thing to disagree about polices and issues, but to make things that are good for the country as a whole, like education and healthy eating and somehow make a controversy out of it is infuriating.

__________________
If you got nothing to bring to the table - don't even bother sitting down.

sarah42

It's too simplistic to say that having more students getting post-secondary degrees is good or bad.

Here's a scenario. Suppose that states decide they want to see more students attending colleges. To make this a serious priority, they tie funding of colleges to their enrollment, retention, and graduation rates. This creates an incentive for colleges to have as many students as possible matriculate and complete degrees. So they lower their grading standards to get more students to pass, and the degrees they award aren't as valuable to employers. Meanwhile, more elite institutions that have bigger endowments and aren't dependent on state funding don't have the same pressure to increase graduation rates. Their standards stay higher and their degrees are more valuable to employers. This creates a bigger gap between elite and non-elite colleges and universities and the outcomes of their graduates. That's not the desired result, but it's a realistic consequence.

__________________

sleepymeko

The idea of anyone voting for Santorum is baffling to me.

Concerning blue collar jobs, a lot of those positions are going overseas because of cheaper labor and the lack of unions. Blue collar jobs are on the decline in this country, which is depressing, but it is a reality. Like other posters have said, these days you need SOME type of certification. I even needed to be certified to serve alcohol at Sea World and I made such very little money (but that is another story). With all the technological advances, it is foolish to think that people will not need further education in the future. To quote Obama, you need to be certified to work simple machinery. And as we all know, technology is replacing a lot of people. Just look at how libraries are being shut down. The world is changing and we need to change with it. And there's no shame in knowing a bit more than you did before. This country needs to prioritize education more. And college graduates DO make more money than those that did not go. Let us forget the exceptions like Bill Gates, etc. OFC in this economy it is hard to find a job, everyone is having problems. But at the end of the day, if you went to college you will make more money than a HS grad. Even a simple associates degree could help you tremendously. And it can all be finished at your own time and pace (part-time students )

__________________
Check out my personal blog

Elderflower

I had a long response typed and lost it due to techinical issues with this board - very frustrating (and why I tend not to post here much any more) - I mainly just wanted to say that I don't understand, sienna, that you think it's a "dumb" statement that college is not for everyone, then say you worship blue collar workers. I'm confused at the contradiction. Also, just because your autistic cousin can handle college means everyone can? There are "no excuses?" I think that's really offensive, actually. Your family sets the standard for everyone? Also, "learning what your passion is".... people don't "learn" passion. Many people have passions that don't translate into a job, so they have to find alternatives. For some people, a job is just a job. Also, many people cannot do what they would like to do, for whatever reason. It's just not as easy as sitting in school for 4 years, and popping into a dream job right after graduation.

Much of my family is blue collar, laid off long ago from an auto plant. That auto plant was their livelihood, and some of them, like my uncle have struggled to find work they can do. They were offered the chance to go to school after being laid off, but they turned it down. I don't think my uncle in particular has the mental ability to do much but manual work, which is what he does. I suppose many of you think people like this are stupid and worthless for not living up to your lofty standards, but I think it takes people of all kinds to run the world. I think there is a place for blue collar workers. Obama thinks this, too, or else he wouldn't have done the bailouts. He wouldn't be funding the re-emergence of a plant in my hometown area. Maybe it's just wanting the votes, but I don't think so. I think it's wrong to stereotype him as some lofty man living in a Harvard Law bubble. It's ironic how that got everyone in a huff when Santorum expressed it when you guys are basically putting the same labels on him. It's not true - Obama does seem to see value in having a working class in America. IMO, it is essential. There are many people who aren't going to work and will resort to crime or whatever they have to do to survive. But, if there was a wider array of jobs for them, maybe it would keep at least some of them off the streets. I guess this is something a lot of you are fortunately far away from.

Ohio and Michigan have such crime and (stagnant) poverty because they were once manufacturing centers, and many of those people don't have the resources to transplant or the capacity to "do more with their lives." I agree with Ninjadog that building the middle class is important, but so many people in the middle class, like myself, have middle class job titles but now make working class wages. It seems the rich and poor disconnect is increasing, and it just seems like the most approachable solution is to bring back more working class jobs that a wider array of people can do. I see that happening, and I hope it becomes a growing trend. I think that is what Santorum was going for, but his mistake was labeling Obama and making it sound like all of Michigan belongs to one class. It takes all kinds, working together. Some of my favorite bosses and most successful bosses were ones without college degrees who learned their trade from their families, and I've had bosses with 2x my education who weren't worth a )(*^. It takes all kinds, working together.

Mimi2010

Education is everything for us (AA). Racism is still alive and well in America and will always be. If most AAs want to succeed here we need a degree. Now we're forced to get our master's degree if we want to be successful in the job market. Every black person should want to further their education beyond high school. The privileged would not understand the importance of education for us. The privileged was not killed for reading a book. Denying the underprivileged an education has held us back for so long. How dare we want to seek higher education to afford us the opportunity to buy a house, to put food on the table, to buy a nice car. The privileged will never understand or feel our plight. Walk a mile in my shoes. Had I never received my master's I wouldnt be making over 120,000 a year. We always have to come correct, always. The privileged don't need all the degrees we need to be successful.

How my soapbox for now.


Sent from my iPad using CurlTalk

Elderflower

That's another problem with the U.S. - you do need a certification nowadays to run a simple piece of machinery. Another big reason why businesses in the U.S. are having so many problems - too many regulations/red tape. People are going to "red states" like KY to open their businesses because there is less struggle involved. I've never worked in a business law firm, but I've had coursework in that area, and worked in firms whose cases get into business law. It's the worst headache imaginable.

I can't directly compare KY to Ohio on business operations, but I've forever heard in KY, it's much easier to incorporate and do business. Also, KY definitely has a different hiring climate compared to Ohio - for example, valuing actual work experience over education and youth. I know many business owners who have less education than I do, if any education at all post-high school. That used to confuddle me as someone who is "educated," but if they can do it, they can do it. There has to be opportunity and a welcoming of business and commerce - not just for the "educated." I'm a Democrat, but the excessive regulation and certification garbage is killing us.

thelio

That just happened to me!!!

It's not just blue collar jobs being sent over seas.

I do genetic typing in a lab adn have to have a degree adn continueing education. people lives depend on what i do. there is a lab in pittsburg that does similar work, but not as urgent. they send their lab typing work to India. where the people doing the typing has no training adn no clue of what to look for. There have been plenty of times the typings had to be sent to us to fix. they send it to india because its cheaper.

i think it would help the economy if businesses were forced to keep their business in the US, instead of expoliting "poor" countries.

Myradella3

My brother is a machinist at a factory. A dirty, backbreaking factory job for which he has earned upwards of $80-90K a year (a couple of years he surpassed $100K). In order for him to get that job 15 years ago, he had to take 12 hours a junior college + another year at a trade school (the company sent him). Now, they will only accept folks for the trade school who some kind of piece of paper after high school. That can be vocational school, a certificate, an associates...but it has to be something. There are factories all over the south with openings for machinists BTW. If know anyway with those skills, send them to Alabama or N.Carolina.

M2LR

There is so much red tape and regulation because businesses need to protect themselves.
If they just hire random people who have no certification, and that person makes a mistake and it results in the death of someone else...it's a huge game for the lawyers and stuff, too.

Companies require certification to try and help protect them from things like this.

Heck, even companies with white collar workers have various certifications that they have to do every year, and they are all compliance related, etc.

Being a business owner, IMO, is different than working for a large company. If you own a business and you don't have any college, great! If you want to get a job with a larger company and they require you have a degree, well, then you have a choice to make.

I have worked for the same company for nearly 17 years. I started one month after my 18th birthday (because you needed to have a HS diploma and be 18 to work there). I haven't neccessarily "worked my way up" in the traditional sense. I am not interested in going into management, and that's where the $$$ is. I just went back to school in 2009. Even for me to transfer to another job, a lot of them require college degrees. So, in order ot make myself more marketable, I got one.

__________________

AmberBrown

Elderflower it seems like you're holding a huge grudge because college wasn't a magic bridge to your personal utopia...I think you might be a tad biased lol.

Objectively speaking, college is an opportunity to further your understanding of particular subjects under the tutelage of experts or to broaden your horizons, generally--I think much more critically in all aspects of my life now, than I did 3.5 years ago when I graduated high school.

I don't expect to get a job offer in one hand and a degree in the other on graduation day. I think anyone who goes to undergraduate school strictly for the purpose of getting a job is going to come out disappointed in today's economic climate. Even if I'm jobless for just as long as a cohort with only a high school diploma, I'd still feel like my time in school had been extremely worthwhile. The experiences I've had in the classroom thinking and learning from other people--students and professors--is pretty much priceless.

And yes, I'm coming from one of those hippy dippy liberal arts schools. lolz

ss40

Many elite schools have been passing sorry students for decades. Its actually helped out grads of state schools and lesser known colleges because it does devalue their degrees. However, schools with strong alumni ties, regardless of academic rigor, will always have alumni who will offer jobs to recent graduates from their Alma mater.

__________________
About my hair:
weekly shampoo-HE Honey I'm Strong
daily conditioner-HE Honey I'm Strong (use as li)
go to style-Pocahontas braids

sinistral55

ITA 10,000%

Sent from my SPH-M580 using CurlTalk App

__________________
"Nobody here but us chickens......"

"Chicken in the breadpan, kickin out dough..." *shrug*

ss40

I posed this question on my Facebook page and the responses I got were from ppl with undergrad degrees. Two said college is not for everyone. I find it hypocritical to think you deserved to go to college but others do not. The ppl who didn't have a degree wished they got one. So I think that even though they don't want to admit it, higher education makes a difference in one's lifestyle in this country.

I not even sure many households can live over the poverty line and get a job with beneifts without at least one person with a college degree these days. Unless they have some serious trade skills. I could be wrong though.

__________________
About my hair:
weekly shampoo-HE Honey I'm Strong
daily conditioner-HE Honey I'm Strong (use as li)
go to style-Pocahontas braids

curlyarca

I think this is an example of what Santorum is really speaking out against(as Springcurl said). Many minorities in this country really need higher ed beyond high school. Because if you don't get any, well, get ready to be painted as the scourge of the earth. Even WITH higher ed, you often still get characterized as trash (see: Barack Obama) and "the problem". All of these random rich people in the media are, guess what: white. So if you're going to sit there and pretend like this country is truly equal opportunity, please, get real. It's not.

And many people that think like Santorum are dying to have more housekeepers, gardeners, and other help that didn't go to college, free for the exploitation. So they can tell you how great you are and how they hope Jesus will bless you because you're "not like the others."

And that's when I turn to people of color and say: invest in yourself as much as you possibly can. Get as much education as you possibly can. This pretty Mark Zuckerberg-wannabe picture people paint is unfortunately not starring random black dude down the street. And please note: Mark Zuckerberg was at Harvard when he dropped out and ran with Facebook....seriously? Some people aren't able.

__________________

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.